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Rengar rework was a failure.

dominusx··101 votes·6,567 views

You made him insane on release he would litterally hit you once for 2k dmg instantly then you nerfed him down so he instead opted for a bruiser build to maintain the scaling but also help abuse his W and now you gonna dumbster his W and force him into another feast of famine type of gameplay where he eithers kill everything with no counterplay as full ad or he is a liability. And now he will be even more useless because he cant actually scout with his ult like he used to do( at least i did ).

I'm not saying he will be unplayable BUT i AM saying he will more than likely be a liabilty and his only effective build will be full ad again since he wont be able to go maximize the bruiser potential without the cc immunity that helped him stick onto a target . OH and btw his FULL AD build atm is far more toxic than his former self because back then he had to actually buy crit to oneshot you in 0.1 because even with flat pen he actually needed more than one auto to get through bt shields but right now as i saw last night playing with my buddy he went a full lethality build and late game we just sat in a bush 5people came buy he jumped and oneshoted both Ori/Mf (at the same time cause they were sitting close to eachother) and survived with his W and my double shields( i was supp ) and how he killed them? a double Q ( he had 3 stacks from scuttle crub it was a set up for elder) and no he purely oneshoted them on his own i only pressed locket once i saw him dive in. then ofc we cleaned up the rest. Even as a Rengar main this isnt fair and shouldnt be like that. I'd argue you might even wanna revert the rework old rengar was -More fun -Took more skill -Needed to snowball harder to oneshot -Wasnt even remotely tanky. But you can keep the passive or something since i know you didnt like what his old passive did because you had to relearn his jump ranges and overall values.

73 Comments

Jbels36 votes

Honestly, Rengar had a chance to be way more balanceable. Scarizard back in the day wanted to remove the stealth from his ult, which would open up the rest of his kit for more power since the stealth would eat up so much power budget. "NOO, HIS STEALTH IS HIS IDENTITY". "Ok we'll leave it on"

So thank you, Rengar "mains". You fucked everyone on this champion ever being in a good state because you can't let go of his "identity".

Ahristocats4 votes

rengar stealth atm doesn't do shit, you know that rengar is comming, and you can drop a pink to help your team to see him

before, there was not a single information that rengar used ulti

his current problem is in noway stealth

SoryInAdvance1 votes

do control wards see rengar?

Sire Hippington2 votes

yes, so do champs if they get close enough. The issue is more that 'close enough' means he's already jumping into your face and smart rengars know how to path around the frontline.

Serika Zero5 votes

so, rengar's ult "if you remove stealth from old rengar" would've been just....................... his passive without a brush??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? on a 2 minute cooldown?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

do you realize how absurd that sounds?

Sire Hippington18 votes

as well as (semi) Global vision(VERY powerfull) and a long duration speedboost. Also, why the hell would anyone asume that he'd keep the 2 min cd if stelath was removed, or not getting anything else for compensation?

I for one would have loved to have the ult as a pure scout+mobillity tool...

Serika Zero8 votes

to much CD for just a vision ult. Same CD as TF's ult which did the same thing. Also, the movement speed was lower than what yomumu grants you.

that's the thing, he would've have had to be heavily compensated for him losing his stealth. As his ult was pretty much a medium range gap closer with no damage and some vision.

but meh, whatever. We can agree on the fact that riot has failed on many champions, ryze and rengar are two of them

Arakadia3 votes

Ryze is MUCH better than before gameplay wise. And his lore, VU, VO, etc. were all great.

dominusx5 votes

Ryze is dogshit broken unless hardcountered please. Not asingle rework has made ryze balanced. They removed his ability to run down mid and 1v4 and they just made him be impossible to 1v1. Q E Q E W EQ and you are dead almost instantly as long as the Ryze can use his fingers.

Arakadia9 votes

Your confused about game health and balance.

You cannot argue, atleast not seriously, that Ryze is much healthier than his previous iterations. Sure, maybe he's broken as fuck, maybe he needs large damage nerfs, but he is healthier.

And, his lore, VU, VO, animations, etc. were fantastic. You can't say Ryze's rework was a total failure.

50000000000000006 votes

If he could 1v4 reliably before and he can't do it anymore, that's a huge improvement.

dominusx1 votes

it's a start. maybe in season 9 he will be a good champ.

Demented Gag1 votes

I picked up Rengar mostly because of his predator-esque ult, but that's just me, I suppose.

Sahn Uzal15 votes

Honestly, they should make a Decision -Get rid of Thrill of the Hunt and give him another ultimate -Turn him into a Diver (Yes I do know that Rengar currently builds and functions like a horribly overtuned Diver.) -Give him a way to get out of the fight like other Assassins. (This one is not exactly preferable imo.)

Just my 10 cents.

Sire Hippington2 votes

-Give him a way to get out of the fight like other Assassins. (This one is not exactly preferable imo.)

his empowerd W does just do that though, cleanse cc+immunity(for now that is) and a solid speedbuff.

Sahn Uzal5 votes

Kinda. But it's no Khazix E reset or a Zed Shadow blink. Rengars empowered W is way more versatile than those abilities though

ModKnightsKemplar1 votes

That's sorta the problem with it. It was a good escape, but had too many other uses, too. I think that's why it feels oppressive.

Ralanr1 votes

Maybe they should just remove the speed buff?

ModKnightsKemplar4 votes

They could try. I'm not sure how good of an escape it would be without that, though.

PaffWasTaken1 votes

His whole purpose is to make him a one way assassin: he has no escapes, but he is meant to have a huge engage potential, with either great survivability by sustain/defensive abilities, or MASSIVE damage outpute for dueling. Removing his ultimate completely seems like a little extreme to me. I would prefer to see him as a very very mobile assassin, but focused on melee poking/kiting along with a lot of escapes. For example, make so that he can climb above the jungle in the trees (like in the cinematic (A New Dawn) in a similar way to Rek'Sai's burying concept, and have very increased mobility in it. Instead of focusing in diving and Killing anyone, I would prefer to remove his raw power and replace it into mobility, like he would focus to get in very quickly, poke some damage, get out as quickly, roam a little and play with his "prey"

DarkPh0enix6 votes

Old Rengar did in no way take more skill.

dominusx11 votes

Current rengar oneshot combo -Ult auto with crit and Q auto Old rengar oneshot combo -Q with 5 stacks ( you had to get stacks too ) W E as you land then reset auto with another Q tiamat midair aswell with the 1st Q so you needed to reset 3 autos and use W E and E was buggy as fuck after its delay when casted midair. So yeh tell me more.....and the old one needed more items and above all needed CRIT to 100-0 you instantly unless extremenly fed but if we talk extrmenly fed Syndra can just press Q somewhere on the ground and then press R on someone to instagib him.

what you deserve4 votes

finally they're nerfing his w to make him manageable

dominusx11 votes

imma be honest his W cc immunity is dogshit broken but it allows him to play the bruiser build and be a viable iniciator. Now he will go back to a feast of famine oneshotbot which isnt healthy for the game.

what you deserve2 votes

it's still a qss- it's a strong nerf but i don't think it'll make him that bad. time will tell tho

dominusx2 votes

yeh never said it will push him off the game but it will make him opt for the old full ad oneshot build which is more toxic than his old build. If you go lethality atm on rengar 2 Qs are enough to kill a squishy not even the ult crit.

Rengar Top Lane1 votes

{quoted}

it's still a qss- it's a strong nerf but i don't think it'll make him that bad. time will tell tho

Assassins should not need a cleanse in their kit just to make them viable/have an escape. That's a horrible way of balance.

Standgrounding1 votes

{quoted}

imma be honest his W cc immunity is dogshit broken but it allows him to play the bruiser build and be a viable iniciator. Now he will go back to a feast of famine oneshotbot which isnt healthy for the game.

Olaf ult as a basic spell... GG rito

sit kid1 votes

Im pretty sure olaf's ultimate lasts way longer, but nice try

ModJango Mage4 votes

All of the assasin reworks were a big failure.

AmazoX6 votes

Main goal of the assassin rework was to nerf them, How you ask? By delaying their burst and giving their opponents more time to react & armor penetration got hit with a hard slap.

''Delaying their burst''

Rengar ''Laughs like crazy, You fools Riot Games have just gave me more tools to hunt down all of my targets alone'' Leblanc ''I'll make you wish you weren't born'' Katarina ''I'll dance around you swiftly with my daggers''

Anu3isII8 votes

You do realise that Old LeBlanc could just Q-R-W and kill a squishy, right? That doesn't even take 1.5 seconds...

And old Katarina didn't have to wait for daggers to drop, and then go to them to get kills. Just Q-E-W-R, murder one target and then jump on the others. All she needed was the perfect timing in her engage.

AmazoX8 votes

Leblanc has this niche, If one of your abilities hit a said enemy, They either have to walk away or take a lot of damage, Mid game her passive combined with her W ability does 900 damage, You either get hit by one of the abilities and you have to go as far as possible from leblanc (Which becomes a free zoning tool due to the enemy incapable of doing anything knowing if they try to trade after they have been marked they are always go to lose the trade or very highly likely are going to die).

You make it sound like it as if the daggers stay 5 minutes in the air, The moment you stand in one place for one second, You & any of your teammates standing close to the dagger are going to get burst down & die if you don't burn your flash or hit Katarina with a click and point cc the moment katarina shunpo's to her dagger, Bursts you , And shunpo's back to her previous location as she would have dropped a dagger, Her damage is not something you should ignore, If she gets a kill on one of your team mate who had cc to stop Katarina but died to her burst & failed/missed locking her down, You have just lost the team fight, Your team are going to focus katarina after she has engaged and burst you down? item 3157 & her team will aid her in battle.

Anu3isII1 votes

The thing is, Old LeBlanc always had this "threat" zone. People hated Old LeBlanc because when she went all-in, she had two options to kill you : Use your first W to get closer to the target and land a full combo on your opponent (it didn't really matter what you Mimicked in terms of damage, you just had to land your E to proc the Mark) or, if your opponent is close enough, Q-R-W and you didn't really have to use your E.

Because people wanted to avoid the second situation, but very few champions actually have enough range to avoid the first one, she can freely try a cheesy all-in tactic that is equivalent to a Blitz Hook: You get hit, you get murdered, you don't get hit? She just goes back with her second W cast and she will try again later the same trick. Good LeBlanc players literally abused this strategy ever since season 3.

The difference with new LeBlanc? She has to stay near her Opponents for at least 1.5 seconds, putting her at risk. Old LeBlanc didn't care about the second proc of her chains, new one needs it to proc her mark. And if you stay in her Q range now, you have 1.5 more seconds to survive. Her current Q-R-W doesn't match at all her old burst potential.

While she got some new tricks in her sleeves, new LeBlanc is literally chained by those 1.5 seconds in terms of burst damage.

And about Katarina, I didn't mention anything about her potential damage. I just stated that they literally delayed her W, by making a dagger appear after your Q bounces on all its targets. With Old Kat, you just threw your Q and E-W instantly. Also, the position of the daggers is kinda weird. They get 250 units behind the target no matter what, so if they go to face you, or just don't run away, you literally have one less ability in your burst combo. With Old Kat, I had games where I could murder the enemy ADC with just Q-E-W. Without the old W, your burst damage just isn't enough.

While their numbers are up to discussion, Riot did achieve their goals with these two champions.

AmazoX1 votes

{quoted}

The thing is, Old LeBlanc always had this "threat" zone.

She still has it, The only thing the Assassin updated did was she that she now hits you with one of her abilities it becomes a ''Lose Zone'' Where no matter what form of thing you try to execute, You'll take heavy damage or mostly high likely die.

People hated Old LeBlanc

They still do.

Old LeBlanc because when she went all-in, she had two options to kill you : Use your first W to get closer to the target and land a full combo on your opponent (it didn't really matter what you Mimicked in terms of damage, you just had to land your E to proc the Mark) or, if your opponent is close enough, Q-R-W and you didn't really have to use your E.

Because people wanted to avoid the second situation, but very few champions actually have enough range to avoid the first one, she can freely try a cheesy all-in tactic that is equivalent to a Blitz Hook: You get hit, you get murdered, you don't get hit? She just goes back with her second W cast and she will try again later the same trick. Good LeBlanc players literally abused this strategy ever since season 3.

You have just defined how dangerous the old leblanc was.

The difference with new LeBlanc? She has to stay near her Opponents for at least 1.5 seconds.

No she does not, The opponent either walks away and stays out of her Lose Zone which is ''Where no matter what form of thing you try to execute, You'll take heavy damage or mostly high likely die.''

Putting her at Risk

Unless the opponent is NOT capable of smashing the keyboard or able to apply any force onto his mouse to move the cursor & right click, Then yes.

Old LeBlanc didn't care about the second proc of her chains, new one needs it to proc her mark.

It was situational, The ''new'' one does NOT NEED to proc her mark.

if you stay in her Q range now, you have 1.5 more seconds to survive. Her current Q-R-W doesn't match at all her old burst potential.

1.5 Seconds to survive? Praise Riot Games it's a miracle!. I have 1.5 more seconds to survive and prepare for my inevitable doom, I have been waiting 1.5 more seconds to survive since November 2, 2010, The day Leblanc was released.

Her current Q-R-W doesn't match at all her old burst potential.

My dear Anu3isII friend,

Her current Q-R-W is different comparing to the old Leblanc.

While she got some new tricks in her sleeves, new LeBlanc is literally chained by those 1.5 seconds in terms of burst damage.

She has sleeves? Kappa. The player playing the ''NEW'' Leblanc has 1.5 seconds to drink Moutain Dew & eat Dorrito's knowing after this time passes, If the Opponent is in the Lose Zone, They are going to take heavy damage, It's not the player playing Leblanc should worry about sticking to their target for 1.5 seconds to apply damage or highly likely kill the Opponent, It's the Opponent who has to decide whether they want to stick around and take heavy damage, No matter what scenario it's going to be a lose situation for the opponent once they have been marked, Hence, That's why I call it Lose Zone instead of Threat Zone.

Also, the position of the daggers is kinda weird. They get 250 units behind the target no matter what.

They are effective.

so if they go to face you, or just don't run away, you literally have one less ability in your burst combo.

It wouldn't make a difference, The Katarina player would just need to E W R.

your burst damage just isn't enough.

Are you even playing league of legends? Every character, Everything in the game is high right now, High heels (Heals), Big shields, Big Dongers, High damage etc.

Riot did achieve their goals with these two champions.

They are Pick or Ban in High Elo & LC$, That's what Riot Games priority was apparently.

Troll for Trump3 votes

Fizz puts power budget in ult Akali actually pretty good, but doesn't discourage tank builds Talon put power budget for gimmick Zed Underwhelming, but ok. Number buffs? Khazix Was OK too, number nerfs could help Shaco AP shaco> AD shaco

Arakadia1 votes

Holy hell, you can't be serious?

Katarina was a great rework. Might need balancing tweaks currently, but the kit is much healthier.

Alot of LB players love the rework, although I've seen alot hate it too.

Kha's evolve changes were healthier, as theres more choice.

Tank Ekko was killed.

You either didn't think for very long, or your biased as shit.

V Hope2k2 votes

Kha rework is probably my most favourite rework, now I enjoy evolving my R and stealthing through bushes.... Before I would never evolve his ult.

Arakadia1 votes

I've evolved R in my few games sense the rework, I haven't been a Kha player for a very long time, just because it looks cooler and is now viable.

Gesterr1 votes

Evolved R is absolute trash, no serious player evolves it under any circumstance.

Arakadia2 votes

it looks cooler

RavenMagus1 votes

I know my opinion on it is fairly unpopular, but I actually like the Akali rework myself.

The Taco Kat1 votes

As a Kat main both prior and after the rework, my opinion on her kit is that it is less healthy. She is much more hated, has the highest ban rate she has ever had (platinum ranked), has a skill ceiling pretty damn high that can lead to a lot of bullshit, lost "feast or famine" (is now "feast") and allows her to still dump damage without having kills (seriously, I have been down 40 cs and 0/3/0 and gotten triples pretty damn easily), and to add onto all of that, I have heard extremely cruel words for even touching the champion in normal games that have gone above and beyond what I've been called since season 3 when I started playing League and maining her.

I am, of course, a bit biased against new Katarina because I have an attachment to her old kit, but I have to say, this kit certainly doesn't seem any bit healthier. She is just gonna have her bases reduced to where she is terrible at laning again to put her in the "right spot," and it's going to be the same situation as her old kit and its problems where she is far too oppressive when ahead, yet nearly worthless when behind (unless you play perfectly from thereon).

Elikain3 votes

-Needed to snowball harder to oneshot

Actually, he didn't. It was quite easy for him to snowball with the old passive. Grab a couple of kills, get Youmuu's and that's it. Not to mention stacking up his Ferocity stacks for those 2x Q queues that instantly delete champions off the map. His stealth and detection mechanic with a couple of kills wasn't even a warning, you just knew you're going to get fucked the moment ! popped up over someone. The squishy one always gets the knife first.

#Here's how the complaining works for reworks:

1. Champions who were trash tier, always feel better than they used to.

Champions who were in such a sorry state that their gameplay never felt right, even when played right, always feel good to play by both the champion's mains and first timers.

2. Champions who were in the "passable but abusable" tier always have two sides

You have those champion's mains who complain that this rework was trash BECAUSE they had to relearn the champion they invested time in maining while the players who were on the opposite side appreciate the direction and can now work around the champion's strength.

Take for example, Akali. I was never her main but i have in the past tried to learn her multiple times. She always felt like an appealing champion to me and even if i managed to do good with her "old" kit, her playstyle was so off-putting. I never liked that side of her where she could brute force kills and then go for resets to do it all over again. And after a while, her spellvamp on her burst was too high so it offset lethal damage to make her stop and that's when people started losing control of the lane against Akali.

This "new" version of her kit is right up my alley. She needs to fight in windows of her burst damage, which she desperately needed to balance out her poor early game with her insane power spike game. Even small utility changes, like a short blink when tossing the Shroud is usefull to go over thin walls or scoot just a bit closer to pop that Q with an AA. Her passive is better than it used to be. She is still going to get a rework at some point, these changes weren't meant as replacements.

But her mains seem to disagree while Riot likes how she turned up. So this isn't even about "fuck the champion's mains", the mains simply think updates or reworks to their main champions are always bad because they have to adjust to the new playstyle. Now they're in the same "rank" with new players and they don't like that.

Stephenizgod2 votes

Does anybody notice how they said they wanted Assassins to have a extended window of burst and yet the only one that they actually reworked that has this is Talon? I mean 2 of his abilities have delays, he completely relies on hitting both parts of his delayed easy to dodge W in order to proc his passive, and his mobility is limited by your skill and forethought. He still can 100-0 people if they aren't careful, but he is suppose to do that because he is an assassin. It is how he does it and how you can play around it that makes him more "balanced" than the other Assassins.

Lauchmelder1 votes

Talon is the only assassin that is annoying but fair to play against imo.

Zed is underwhelming right now but his kit is just so over the top that I hate playing against him regardless. LeBlanc is insane if she can proc her passive (which, if she has a brain, she can just use to zone you off cs) Katarina does insane damage on a targeted ability. Ekko has utility, mobility, damage and a reset button. Etc. you get what I'm going on about

The only thing I hate about Talon is his roaming. You can't outroam him as a midlaner (unless you go Quinn mid maybe). But that's on a cooldown, so it's balanced more or less.

Ørdeal2 votes

Who gives half a fuck of this champion isnt playable. Pretty sure everybody who isn't a rengar main wants this champion to sit down for a while. Taliyah, Kalista, and azir are doing poorly, might as well ad rengar to the bench too.

dominusx5 votes

i truly dont wanna see Kalista in a good spot unless she gets reworked.

Elisheva1 votes

Issue with this is, riot "is" going to rework her, but i guarantee she will be a completely different champion, which is a shame because she is the only adc that actually feels like you are doing something while playing. Every other adc in the game, you are a damage torrent, with a babysitter at your side at all times. Kalista got fucked as soon as riot made her so support reliant. All they really need to do is make her leap movement speed reliant again (even if its toned down) and remove the slow from her Rend, so it is still a viable damage source, but can't be abused to chase people down.

LQuiX2 votes

Revert rengar bring back the old rengar plzz

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