"SQ nd DQ can't co-exist because no one would play DQ"

The Deckowner·Aug 3, 2016·181 votes·6,630 views

If Rito themselves think that everyone would play solo queue instead of dynamic queue if they co-exist, doesn't that simply mean that solo queue is superior to dynamic queue?

Edit: For all of you who said something along the lines of "SQ isn't actually superior than DQ, DQ would only die because all the solos going to SQ causing long queue time".** consider the following**

If solo experience in DQ is actually as good as Rito described it, why would solo players go to SQ instead of staying in DQ?

202 Comments

AwesomeChadAug 3, 201655 votes

that was their ploy from the beginning. The complete removal of solo queue and placing dynamic queue as the only option. All of the PR bullsht posts. The heavily biased poll. Manipulation of statistics to make DQ seem "likable".

The DeckownerAug 3, 201617 votes

I like that use of the word "likable".

Very Hard EngageAug 3, 201646 votes

riot - "but we spent all this time and resources on it.... were not throwing it out, and since we know better... here you go, heres dynamic queue"

BakedLotionAug 3, 201623 votes

{quoted}

riot - "but we spent all this time and resources on it.... were not throwing it out, and since we know better... here you go, heres dynamic queue"

It's just a strategy to get people into the game with friends so they won't quit. Friends will make you want to keep playing the game even if you hate it.

The DeckownerAug 3, 201637 votes

friends quitting the game will also make you want to quit it, my friend list is literally single digit online now where I used to have 30+.

SpoofghoulAug 4, 201615 votes

yes i experienced the same most of my irl friends who played this game have quit and a majority of players who became friends have also quit

nowadays im happy if i can find 5 online :(

and im about ready to throw in the towel myself

EunsonAug 3, 201611 votes

didn't work on me. I quit because I had to play with friends, friends are bad at this game.

General Esdeath Aug 3, 20168 votes

LOL wtf? Half of my friends (including the 3 that got me into it) quit this shit game. Even famous players (Uber, Dunkey, Sky, Keyori) have all admitted their friends quit and they don't find the game fun. Clearly, what you just said is wrong.

xXMrPeanutXxAug 4, 20166 votes

It's also a marketing decision for the future. They even state "we want kids growing up playing League like they would soccer"

Obviously that doesn't apply to anyone here who isn't 12, but it's great for the 12 yr olds!

MrWasjigAug 4, 20168 votes

Good to see Riot buying into the sunken cost fallacy...

PartholonianAug 3, 201644 votes

It's not that everyone would rather play solo queue, it's that people who don't want to group that game would rather play solo queue. Nobody can group unless somebody plays with groups on their team, but too many players only remember the bad groups they were with and not the good ones (and obviously don't remember at all the groups that they never knew were a group because they played the same as everyone else).

Solo queue is slightly superior to dynamic queue for some people (because they avoid a small chance of toxic premades), but greatly inferior for others (because they can't play with the players they want AT ALL). That's why Riot decided the way they did. But if they try to explain that, people will just tune out the parts that aren't about them and say "see, it is worse, you admit it", like the OP did.

Oakleaf RangerAug 4, 201628 votes

But the point of rank is to be matched with players in your skill/MMR range. Dynamic Queue throws rule out the window and makes rank meaningless. I would never play dynamic queue in ranked for that reason alone if given the option as probably a lot of other solo players. I would be able to play knowing that my team and the enemies skill level would be consistently in my area, instead of the clown fiesta that it currently is.

SinlaireAug 4, 20165 votes

Your statement is correct barring two misconceptions. The first being that Dynamic Queue throw things out of balance by throwing the rules out the window. This rule functions under the example of abuse cases in which players of a clearly higher caliber are finding ways to play in lower leveled tier games to bring up their friends or suitably money wealthy internet acquaintances.

This is of course as i've already mentioned, an abuse case, and the vast majority of dynamic ranked is really just people joining games with friends (my case family) and playing higher competitive gameplay.

The second misconception is that Dynamic degrades the sanctity of MMR balance by introducing wider pools of players to cause greater skill disparity and uneven matches.

This assumption is also false unless the player has reached a state of longer climbing due to whatever short coming they have preventing further climbing. Considering much of ranked IS ALL ABOUT THE CLIMB in order to find your own skill level, matches will never be truly balanced to begin with because there will always be people in matches with exceptional skill that simply havent ranked out of that MMR yet making their way up.

For example I've done Duo Q with my brother all season so far. Started Bronze 4 and made it to Silver 5 yesterday. he's gone from Bonze 3 to Silver 1 (he has double the ranked games I do since he enjoys league much more recreationaly than I me) and is at 96LP.

In game 90% of the time we call out about our own team or the enemy team it's <X isn't very good it seems. dont fear/trust them> and we almost never call out that we're impressed by anyone's display of skill and to trust or fear them in turn. He and I are still well into our climb and still havent made it into our own tiers, thus making our matches imbalanced inherently regardless of Dyna Q.

Dyna Q only ever trumps Solo Q in combating groups abusing solo players and in Dyna Q being used to abuse Rank stagnation for un-earned ELO.

Oakleaf RangerAug 4, 201611 votes

Your right that games were never truly balanced with the previous system, however before though the individual player used to be the most influential variable in each that game that would naturally climb over constant games if their skill level was above those in said games. The only thing holding you back from climbing was your self. It does throw out balance since it allows players who have normally not been allowed to play with/against each other that while increasing the number of constraints on the matchmaking system that cuts corners in order to have reasonable queue times because of those said constraints. Not to mention that the current system will never to come close to accurately measure communication to help balance teams which has a great amount of influence on winning or losing. Climbing out of bronze isn't difficult since those player lack significant mechanics, game knowledge, or both that solo players can take advantage of to carry the game consistently. However I would say that the problem of dynamic queue becomes noticeable starting in high silver where its a mix of bronze, silver and gold players being incorrectly matched together with a similar problem in the elos above.

DengedenAug 4, 20161 votes

Say what will you will, implying you are no longer a factor in your games, sounds suspiciously like elo hell.

EDIT: And as usual, you're not telling me what exactly premades accomplish, only using hazy words like "communication".

Oakleaf RangerAug 4, 20169 votes

Your still a important factor but the existence of premades alone have created new factors. Is a particular person(s) on my team at an adequate level for my elo? Is it a smurf or boosted? I have a premade are each player of similar skill or is one particular better than the others. Are their decision making skills good? (Doesn't matter because if the majority of your team is a premade then your calls tend to be irrelevant if they have other ideas and your kind stuck going along whether you want too or not). Does my premade have voice comms and what about the enemy premade? Voice comms alone means that your team's premade may type little to nothing at all because they are already talking through other means. Voice comms also mean real time communication that allows for plays that normally wouldn't possible to execute without that real time communication and faster snap decisions between teammates that couldn't be accomplished through typing or pings. Your also going into games knowing the habits and patterns of your teammates. Your also going into these games more trust between your team then the enemy. Hesitation can win, lose, and change the tide of battle. Knowing that you have full support of someone when doing something together is extremely unfair when usually the other teams trust between each other is skin deep. Points that plenty of other of people have brought up before, hope this clears up that "haziness."

ProzzakAug 4, 20166 votes

I can't play with the players I want to at all because they all quit this season due to various things (DQ included). Also couldn't play with them at all because I am too high (was D2 until I decayed from not playing for 2 months).

Point is, I can live with DQ (although I massively preferred solo Q) but they messed up hard when they took out any ability (aka team 5's) for me to play with my irl friends in a competitive environment. *Having not played in two months until yesterday, I think maybe I remember hearing team 5's were coming back? Can't remember really but that would at least be a step in the right direction.

BadgrzAug 4, 20165 votes

piggybacking off your comment because I am convicted that 99% of the community does not grasp common sense...

I've been playing since S3 now and can safely say I could honestly care less for dynamic queue as I don't normally play in groups. What I DO find disconcerting (and I REALLY hope Riot pays attention to this point despite it being on a flame thread) after playing in plat+ for 3 seasons is how absolutely brain dead plat players are this season. S4 and S5 were MOUNTAINS above this season competition-wise due to lack of accountability for dynamic queue groups. I stated this at the beginning of the season and I still stick to it: dynamic queue players should NOT receive the same MMR gains as you normally would in a SoloQ environment. Is this stupid crest-preference crap you added going to fix anything? Absolutely not.

I've played my fair share of plat and diamond games this season (never about D4 though, so can't speak for anybody higher) and it is safe to assume that plat and low diamond play is substantially less competitive than any other season I've played. This isn't the players' faults though, they're merely grinding out free wins due to the exploitative nature of the current MMR system. The real issue is the fact that LP gains and MMR scaling remains the same for those who abuse the current system.

Will it ever get fixed? It could, but it won't as long as the playerbase moves in the direction it is going. I can't count how many games I've played where people just don't understand the basic concepts of game design. Let me reiterate for those who seem to have forgotten- THIS IS A FREE GAME. What that implies is the company who made this game is going to be motivated, first and foremost, by what you guys pay for. You blindly throw your money at their skin sales, etc etc whatever else they add to that store and forget that YOU, THE PAYING CUSTOMER, have the most say in the outcome of this game. You whine and you whine and you whine on these boards to bring back aspects of the game that made it so great, yet you get distracted by "that new cool champion" or "that sweet skin that just went half off!" and throw your money at Riot, motivating them to spend time making MORE skins and MORE champions and less time on fixing things that really should be first priotity (client bugs, game mechanics, etc)

I REALLY hope you, as players, start understanding this concept as it applies to the real world, too.

Tl;dr- You want Riot to fix their shit? You speak louder with your wallet than you do your words.

Into The AetherAug 4, 201618 votes

DQ uses 1's, 2's, 3's, 4's and 5's.

4's don't function without 1's.

2's can work with 3's, but the other combinations, 2 2 and 1, or 2 and three 1's, go away without sufficient 1's.

3's go with 2's, but otherwise need two 1's.

Sectioning off more and more of the playerbase screws with queue times, especially when paired with role selection from new champion select.

If 1's in DQ get sufficiently low, DQ's kinda screwed. If indeed DQers are super common like is being asserted, then a decent dip in 1's would quickly be a problem

SQ would function off a lower population due to fewer complications, but could still run into problems if not enough people went.

There could be additional issues though, such as certain roles being more common in SQ or DQ populations.

And as with before, these problems would all be most common at the top of the ladder. May well be that both SQ/DQ would blow up and fail for the top end. Could also conceivably be that both would co-exist perfectly fine at the bottom of the ladder.

Not that I'm particularly happy about being a sacrifice to DQ. I buy that they can make it "fair", but it's still less fun having some segment of each team randomly work together way better or way worse than what I'm used to, and just happen to have other skillsets that offset it in the appropriate direction.

Or the people who feel more comfortable popping off their mouths because they have a friend to back them up.

Basically I'm having less fun.

cope momentAug 4, 201618 votes

The one thing I don't understand is why people who argue for Ranked DQ say that premades would be greatly affected by the removal of DQ. Aren't normals made for casual play with your friends? If you remove Ranked DQ, all of those premades would simply shift to normals. I don't get why premades MUST only be in ranked for them to exist.

just my two potatoes, you could probably point out many flaws in this argument, but this is how i view the whole situation as an unranked scrub

Mister SupportAug 4, 20162 votes

There are people out there (not including myself) who enjoy to play ranked seriously with a group of friends since they don't have to worry about random chance players on their team. As for myself, I just solo or duo at most and overall I don't care for my own sake if DQ stays or goes. Though based on what I've heard, it does seem like there's a considerable number of people who are happy to be able to play with friends in ranked and take it seriously, even if it's not all the time.

The DeckownerAug 4, 201612 votes

TBH IMO any premde smaller than 5 isn't actually competetive, becausing split communication between premade and solo really reduces the level of teamplay the team can have. One should either play solo and try hard with other solo, or be in a complete team with friends and try hard with all members of the team.

Pika FoxAug 3, 20167 votes

Solo Queue and DQ cant both coexist because neither would function properly. There also wouldnt be enough solo queue players to have an effective queue.

Its time to face the facts; most people that want SQ back dont even want SQ. The arguments used are mostly appeal to nostalgia, the same as people that state that season x, where x =/= 6, was the best season ever, even though realistically this season is the best season LoL has had, and season 7 will be better than 6. People just remember the past like it was some high and mighty god on a pedestal, when in reality it was riddled with flaws and issues.

CrazFight Aug 3, 201614 votes

Ok... so now your saying season 6 is the best, with no facts to back it up except for opinion... which is what your post is against...?

The Yetii RiderAug 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Ok... so now your saying season 6 is the best, with no facts to back it up except for opinion... which is what your post is against...?

Season 6 is the best. It's the only season with role selection. How much less trolling do you get because people don't fight over roles? How much better are your supports because you only get people who actually chose to play support? It's the best season because of new champ select, period.

CrazFight Aug 4, 20166 votes

Opinion is all you just said... lol, sorry man, but don't say your against opinion then try to justify what you said with a opinion.

The Yetii RiderAug 4, 20161 votes

It's not opinion. Riot spent like three years on Team Builder and making supports more attractive to everyone because people have been asking for role selection since League was created.

CrazFight Aug 4, 20167 votes

Even tho its still a opinion.... ill pretend this is a fact you have.

So yay this is an improvement ! Because of this one improvement we ignore all the other faults this season?

The Yetii RiderAug 4, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Even tho its still a opinion.... ill pretend this is a fact you have.

So yay this is an improvement ! Because of this one improvement we ignore all the other faults this season?

Absolutely. I would rather play jungle every game and be upset about the balance than play mid or adc in a perfectly balanced game.

CrazFight Aug 4, 20167 votes

Again... opinions... lol... I can't argue if you are going to say all your opinions are facts. Don't they focus on the difference between facts and opinons these days? thinks (Donald trump is running for president based on lies) nvm. -_-

The DeckownerAug 3, 201618 votes

First of all, what made you think Season 6 the best season ever? Secondly, what do you mean by there won't be enough solo queue players to make solo queue an effective queue? Even in dynamic queue today solo players are still the majority. Or just a simple logic: solo players quitting DQ for SQ=Super long DQ queue time=DQ players quiting DQ for SQ=DQ dead.

Pika FoxAug 3, 20161 votes

Because it has the balance changes of all the previous seasons + sweeping gameplay changes to revitalize the game and make it less stale. This is the best balance state that League has been in in its history, and i say this as having lived through season 1, with release LB and xin running rampant.

And SQ wont have the population to make it viable. Face it, most players enjoy playing with their friends. Even most avid SQ players still play with their friends from time to time. Fact of the matter is, most people enjoy DQ.

RamelznakAug 3, 201625 votes

Season 6 is the best? * Insert Lux laugh*

NilokAug 4, 20167 votes

[slayer-jinx-wink] Jinx laugh

The DeckownerAug 3, 201618 votes

in mid season 5 (before the juggernaut rework iirc)the game had reached a relatively stable state, and every class rework after that had only brough the game downhill in terms of balance. Think about reworked quinn, graves, kogmaw, mordekaiser, darius, malzahar, vladimir, etc. Also the meta right now is mote snowbally than ever.

also I need to repeat the cycle: solo players quitting DQ for SQ=Super long DQ queue time=DQ players quiting DQ for SQ=DQ dead.

DQ provides nothing for solo players, no one would want to queue as solo in DQ when SQ is an option.

Pika FoxAug 3, 20164 votes

LoL cant function in a stable state. Most games cant. A stable game is a solved game, and removes innovation, change, and mystery of the unknown. It becomes old and stale, changing only once in a great while when someone learns some new trick or combo that abuses outdated code/design that becomes the new FoTM (like in fighting games).

This is why game designers use perfect imbalance, having things be slightly out of whack so they can rotate the meta around.

Also many of those champions you listed were changed for a reason, having previous design flaws, many often becoming binary as a result (kog/malz) or were too similar to other champions within their class who just performed their job better.

The meta right now isnt really any more snowbally than previous seasons. The reason it feels that way are the changes intended to shorten the average game time in LoL, making late game scaling champs less impactful/relevant.

And your cycle is fictional. It implies DQ will be the main thing suffering from queue times, where as SQ would be the primary queue suffering from said issues. most LoL players utilize DQ.

The DeckownerAug 4, 201610 votes

LoL cant function in a stable state. Most games cant. A stable game is a solved game, and removes innovation, change, and mystery of the unknown. It becomes old and stale, changing only once in a great while when someone learns some new trick or combo that abuses outdated code/design that becomes the new FoTM (like in fighting games).

Realized how I used the word RELATIVE before stable? S5 was relatively stable COMPARE to other time periods of the game. At that time no champion were at super op 100% pick ban state and S5 worlds had the largest champion pool among all seasons.

Also many of those champions you listed were changed for a reason, having previous design flaws, many often becoming binary as a result (kog/malz) or were too similar to other champions within their class who just performed their job better

KogMaw rework did literally nothing except making his W a stronger version of what it was. He is still the same play style: press W and auto attack people ti death, literally the same exact play style. Malzahar rework gave him a passive blackshield, what else of his playstyle changed?press all buttons on the enemy then R to fuck them up, exact the same as he used to be. But was old Malzahar highest win rate of top mid and jg with over 80% pick ban? no, which is why the rework made him broken.

The meta right now isnt really any more snowbally than previous seasons. The reason it feels that way are the changes intended to shorten the average game time in LoL, making late game scaling champs less impactful/relevant.

cough faster gold generation, higher exp on kills, lower fortification on towers, first blood tower gold, longer dearh timers cough Guess you don't know the game too well if you said these aren't making games snowbally.

And your cycle is fictional. It implies DQ will be the main thing suffering from queue times, where as SQ would be the primary queue suffering from said issues. most LoL players utilize DQ.

SQ can function without DQ players, DQ CAN NOT function without SQ players. Even if SQ have the same long queue time as DQ(which btw it won't) it will be the DQ users who move to SQ, not the SQ moving to DQ. Also what you said about DQ player being majority of the player base is a complete assumption of yours.

ElewdAug 4, 20164 votes

did you read ghostcrawlers little answer thread thing? he explained that if all Dynamic queue players stayed in that queue and all solo's went to another, the dynamic queues would start to get longer because looking for a setup of 2 and 3 per team takes a long while + mmr values. and eventually people would switch to soloq for the shorter queues, sadly, riot would rather keep dynamic queue due to the fact solo players can put put into the same queue. instead of basically ghosttown another queue.

QuephaAug 3, 20163 votes

Not everyone would play solo queue, but every solo player would play solo queue and that would make it all but impossible for anyone in a premade to play the game.

The DeckownerAug 3, 201610 votes

which shows the point that solo players are having worse experience in DQ than SQ.

QuephaAug 3, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KsRv6pYF,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-08-03T23:10:23.788+0000)

which shows the point that solo players are having worse experience in DQ than SQ.

No shit. But it isn't bad enough that a massive group of players should be literally completely prevented from playing the game together. Especially when solo queue players can still get their 5 solo vs. 5 solo paradise fairly often in dynamic queue.

The DeckownerAug 4, 20166 votes

normals had always been there for people who wanna play with friends.

Especially when solo queue players can still get their 5 solo vs. 5 solo paradise fairly often in dynamic queue.

why are you saying this as if solo players liked it?

QuephaAug 4, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Deckowner,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=KsRv6pYF,comment-id=0004000000000001,timestamp=2016-08-04T01:58:49.703+0000)

normals had always been there for people who wanna play with friends.

And normals doesn't have the competitive feel that a lot of players play League for. Now they can have the competitive feel while working together as a team in a team-based game, which is how it should be.

why are you saying this as if solo players liked it?

Because people are asking for a queue that guarantees 5 solo vs. 5 solo.

The DeckownerAug 4, 20167 votes

And normals doesn't have the competitive feel that a lot of players play League for. Now they can have the competitive feel while working together as a team in a team-based game, which is how it should be.

Ranked with DQ doesn't have the competitive feel that a lot of players played league for in the past years.

Because people are asking for a queue that guarantees 5 solo vs. 5 solo.

I actually misreaded at that previous post thought you said 5 solo vs 5man premade. But the thing is, no solo player actually like playing with premades.

CerealBoxOfDoomAug 3, 20163 votes

I would play DQ

stronger opponents sounds fun to me even if there will be the occasional boosted animal hidden somewhere

EunsonAug 3, 201611 votes

They're only stronger opponents because they can simply communicate to say lets 5v1 this guy top. I'd rather player against individuals who have in-game skill rather than a way to communicate which I don't.

CerealBoxOfDoomAug 3, 20162 votes

It doesn't matter why they are stronger as long as they aren't cheating and hacking or anything.

I can deal with 5v1 top. If 4 go mia I probably wont be sticking around in lane like a noob for example. If I am I might die and its probably not going to be that big a deal even with 4 other terrible soloqueuers

KingnewgameplusAug 4, 20169 votes

That sounds anime af. "I will choose the path of the dynamic queue if it means I can fight stronger enemies to push myself to new limits and go even further beyond!"

rabbiter919Aug 4, 20162 votes

But riot never said that (link me if they did and I just haven't seen it please). As far as I know, riot says SQ and DQ can't coexist because DQ is better for the future of the game and having SQ would essentially split resources and loyalties.

Whether or not you agree DQ is better, you shouldn't put words in riot's mouth. They never claimed that people would flock to SQ. They want to push DQ because they think it's just better.

Dextix LTAug 4, 20165 votes

What they think is better, is not what is better. Blizzard also thought that every expansion after lich king was better, i think most of us would disagree. Jagex thought runescape combat evolved was better, again, many disagreed.

DQ will never be better than SQ, it is an inherently flawed system that ruins ranked integrity and experience for solo players.

Having SQ would kill DQ because solo players would not fill DQ premades. This just again, shows how fucked the system is for soloes.

They did claim that having both ques would split resources and dramatically increase que times. But doesnt that show that not the majoriy likes DQ?