@meddler: health sustain vs. grievous wounds

Critmaster Garen··18 votes·1,225 views

i know this is a difficult question, but will this relationship ever get looked at again? tbh. it has been incredibly binary ever since it was conceived in the first days of league.

either sustain has been entirely overwhelming, or grievous wounds is too prevalent and has straight up invalidated champion kits that rely on it over the years.

there never seemed to be a phase where these mechanics were balanced well against each other, and its like the attempt to fix one broken mechanic with another.

i think we need to rethink health sustain in league on a fundamental level and maybe find a replacement mechanic to grievous wounds as a limiter, that wouldnt be quite as binary in nature.

whats more is, that i seriously hope youre not still considering a shield breaker item in the future. i fear youre going to fall into the same trap and create an unhealthy and binary relationship with shields and shield breaking like we have with grievous wounds and health sustain.

if certain shields are too strong, it makes more sense to nerf those shields.

if shield stacking is too strong, it makes more sense to limit shield stacking. there are plenty of options, like putting diminishing returns on shield stacking. making a second shield on a champion who is already affected by another shield only 60% effective, the third one only 30% effective, could be one solution.

maybe a similar mechanic of putting diminishing returns on health sustain from different sources might work overall better than grievous wounds as a mechanic aswell.

a DrMundo wouldnt get his ult cut by 40% from every damage source in the game like now, but also wouldnt become unkillable when he gets additional healing from other sources.

im not sure if this particular solution would work out, but there has to be a better way to balance health sustain and shielding in league of legends.

35 Comments

Spice POWAH13 votes

they should just remove GW and balance healing around there not being GW to counter it

NineTailedMystic2 votes

But then if a healer gets too strong, there's no way to deal with it either. You can still shut down a decently fed Vlad for example with GW because he can't 1v2/3 nearly as well with GW sitting on him.

Critmaster Garen5 votes

{quoted}

But then if a healer gets too strong, there's no way to deal with it either. You can still shut down a decently fed Vlad for example with GW because he can't 1v2/3 nearly as well with GW sitting on him.

thats to a large part because vlads sustain is balanced around the existence of grievous wounds.

this is why we need a global replacement mechanic for grievous wounds. something that puts a limit on sustain in general, without fucking over champions whos kits rely on it, or generally make sustain broken because it has to be balanced around everybody buying grievous wounds at some point of the game.

NineTailedMystic2 votes

I'm actually talking about if there were no GWs. If there were no GWs, but say Vlad got fed, what do you do about it? Yea, his sustain would be tweaked in a world without GWs but there's still not anything you could actually do about it still.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

I'm actually talking about if there were no GWs. If there were no GWs, but say Vlad got fed, what do you do about it? Yea, his sustain would be tweaked in a world without GWs but there's still not anything you could actually do about it still.

what can you do now?

i honestly dont see the difference between cutting sustain globally by 40% and removing grievous wounds, or balancing sustain around the existence of grievous wounds and putting it on every champion in the game. other than that sustain in this case is broken, when you dont build its counter.

of course cutting all sustain globally is an extreme example.

i think riot should try to find ways to balance health sustain on its own, without grievous wounds.

PokladnicaZla1 votes

I agree with you,but I think 40% is too much.

NineTailedMystic1 votes

Buy GW on gang up on him is what you do now. But without any way to limit his healing, he's much more capable of 1v2/3.

I'm not saying GW is healthy, but it's currently necessary.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Buy GW on gang up on him is what you do now. But without any way to limit his healing, he's much more capable of 1v2/3.

I'm not saying GW is healthy, but it's currently necessary.

but hes only capable of doing that, because his sustain is balanced around the existence of grievous wounds.

if grievous wounds didnt exist, they wouldnt make vlads sustain scale as crazy as it does from the get go.

this illustrates very well how grievous wounds is just trying to deal with a problem by introducing a bigger problem. if grievous wounds didnt exist, vlads sustain would be tuned down, and he wouldnt get into the position to 1v3 as easily when his enemies dont have access to the debuff.

i see the same problem coming for us when they introduce a shield breaker mechanic. it will either barely make a difference or completely fuck over certain specific champions who are focused around shields. so they will follow up with buffing these champions shields, making those shields a worse balancing nightmare than theyre now if you dont have access to the shield breaker item. which in turn will force them to put the mechanic into every spot in the game.

its just going to create a chain reaction of unhealthy gameplay around an uneccessary counter mechanic that the game isnt built for, instead of trying to deal with shield stacking and overpowered shields directly.

similar to health sustain mechanics, most singular shields arent even a problem by themselves. its usually the stacking of shields that creates ridiculous nieche cases, when a support hits locket active, his own shield and maybe another person on a team shields that same target for a combined double value of their health bar. this problem could be entirely fixed by putting diminishing returns on shield stacking from different sources, as a global game mechanic. it would leave singular shields in champion kits impact full (like nautilus tankyness comes mostly from his w shield when other tanks have % dr mechanics or massive resistance buffs in its place), but puts a damper on just stacking 5 different shields on the adc and turning him into a ranged juggernaut with 4k effective health.

Done251 votes

{quoted}

If there were no GWs, but say Vlad got fed, what do you do about it?

Well for one thing you don't let the late game hyper carry get fed. Let's replace Vlad with Yi or Fizz. Do you expect to win against the Yi who's 10/0/0 with 200 CS by 20 min in?

NineTailedMystic1 votes

It's possible if your team comp has the proper CC to focus down Yi, because barring tank Yi shenanigans he'd still be relatively squishy unlike Vlad.

ChaddyFantome1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Spice POWAH,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U6mQZbAq,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-03-03T04:45:17.862+0000)

they should just remove GW and balance healing around there not being GW to counter it

They already tried that and it didnt work. Back in seadon 4 and 5, that is exactly what they did. They reintroduced GW back into the game because they had to make healing straight up suck in as a response to no GW.

In order for it to be at a level that is at any level satisfying, GW needs yo exist. Its that simple.

Spoofghoul3 votes

GW shouldn't affect regeneration type healing

That would fix a lot of issues

It also shouldn't be on a last whisper item or similar bought everygame core items GW should have a condition like thornmails version, where it is only there if you attack that guy In my opinion there has to be a trade off for buying it, and it needs a condition and it should not affect health regen

The duration and strength of the GW can be based off the conditions and what you give up for buying it

Seems like a fairly simple solution in my opnion

kurnubego2 votes

I guess black cleaver invalidates champions who have armor? The idea is that opponents have to itemize a certain way to be able to deal with you. And that's usually just one guy on the team who can do that. No need to dumb down the system by streamlining healing / healing cuts into kits. Currently it's part of arms race / strategy game. Removing that will remove in game depth.

WardBaronFFS1 votes

No it needs to be changed the arms race you speak of is no existent if its end game. A soraka who Ws and heals the adc for full hp when you have executioners call as an assassin is too much say whatever you want healing overall isnt a very balanced mechanics and honestly I would rather have all the heals be replaced for shields so atleast you dont have the same duration of forever after using your ability. The amount of effort that is put into killing a target even building around them with a executioners calling just for a support to hit W or hit R or hit E and have them get shielded/healed for more damage then your combo is with a shorter cd is bull shit.

kurnubego1 votes

Well. You're entitled to your opinion. :)

WardBaronFFS1 votes

You just down voted me over actually provide a logical argument dafuq bro atleast try to argue and prove your point over jsut a You're entitled to your opinion. :) thats sorta a bitch move its not a strategy everyone knows how to counter it but most of the time if not all of the time greivous wounds is over thrown by healing

kurnubego1 votes

I'm not sure there is a point to continue conversation. You fault me for not providing arguments while you just dismiss the crucial element of arms race in itemization pathings, because 'end-game'. Therefor it leaves an impression of you being here to state and explain why you are convinced that you are absolutely correct on your estimations. Not to dig on stuff. So what's the point of talking if you intend to keep to your opinions no matter what. I rather just acknowledge you have them as a response and express disagreement.

Not holding it against you, though.

WardBaronFFS1 votes

Then why reply at all in the first place? If you arent going to contribute to the conversation then its more or less spam saying such would be considered mindless spamming and a sarcastic condescending remark.

kurnubego1 votes

To express disagreement to your 'counter' point, since there is no conversation to begin with. It's just you explaining why you think you are correct in your estimation. :D so yeah, what's else left to do?

WardBaronFFS1 votes

The conversation is there you just believe you will lose it so you would rather provide yourself with a stubborn remark instead of actually putting in the effort to sway someones mind with factual evidence and numbers. Your entire point has been lost since the only thing you care about is sounding like you are right and making me sound like I am wrong. Heres a taste of your own medicine. "Your original point was, least to say invalid but it's obvious your mind is solid on this ridiculous "arms race" ideal when in truth its more of a restricted itemization strategy that isnt utilized in many elos simply because of the fact they would rather ignore then deal with the problem at hand." Except wait thats too civil and has a point more your speed would be " You ignoramus youre wrong and im right hahahahhahahaha"

kurnubego1 votes

I've concluded that attempting to have argument based conversation with you is not worth my time, because we can't agree with starting presuppositions, and going through them would require very extensive coverage. Now you going bananas seems to indicate that general attitude is also a bit off, so I'm correct with my call.

WardBaronFFS1 votes

I've concluded the fact you dont have the proof to back your argument so youve decided to dodge the question and go for personal attack on me specifically over actually having a comprehensive argument.

kurnubego1 votes

Sure, whatever makes you happy.

WardBaronFFS1 votes

Thanks I mean you should just delete your original comment since it was proven that you have no evidence, have no argument making it mindless spam.

Teridax682 votes

My personal take on this is that if healing needs an extra limiter outside of its own source just to be healthy, then that healing needs a rework. I dislike Grievous Wounds due to how binary healing becomes around it, and I think it's a massive band-aid to a mechanic that still has yet to be assigned proper ground rules. Healing should not need a dedicated counter-mechanic to be interactive, and should be designed to be healthy at all times right from the get-go.

Personally, my opinion on healing is that it should never come out of thin air: because healing is basically just the negation of damage, it a heal can counter a certain amount of damage, that heal needs to be at least as difficult or costly to apply as that same amount of damage. If a champion has, say, 110 base healing on a champion every 10 seconds (i.e. Sona's W), that should only be valid if all an enemy champion has to do is to press a button, pay a certain mana cost and 10-second cooldown, and deal 110 damage just as reliably. Because this isn't the case in an environment where most (and most, not all) damage can miss, that kind of gameplay simply isn't enough to justify healing. Paying a cooldown for a heal could be justified if that healing were ultimate-level and on a very high cooldown, e.g. Soraka's ult, but if a heal can be used as frequently as an offensive spell, it needs to have at least the same amount of interactivity.

I've mentioned a few supports, in part because they're prime culprits in supplying too much healing, but I also feel there are far worse offenders out there. We all know of Dr. Mundo and how his own healing is completely uninteractive, but life steal as a mechanic is by far the most widespread and powerful source of itemized sustain in the game, while also affording sustain for absolutely no cost. The gameplay there is that you have to autoattack in order to heal, but this can easily be done by just safely hitting minions, or even just using one or two attacks against an enemy champion, and can heal for hundreds of health at a time, so there is a clear imbalance between the power of the mechanic and the gameplay required to access it. This kind of runaway sustain is what needs to be targeted first and foremost, so that there should be no such thing as free or easy healing in the game. If a champion uses healing, it should always be clear that they made a good enough play to justify it, or put themselves in a sufficient amount of risk, or paid an appropriately high cost. If it feels like a champion can access unlimited healing with nothing anyone else can do about it, that champion's sustain is poorly gated and needs to change. Until then, Grievous Wounds will continue to punish all healing, no matter how skillful it is, and the same would happen with a shield-breaker item in the game, which is why we need to target unhealthy mechanics directly, instead of coming up with a dedicated hard counter that will warp the game around it.

WardBaronFFS1 votes

I fucking hate health sustain and healing and grievous wounds doesnt cut it most games, last game I was super fed as riven but couldnt kill the support soraka or quinn or mid lane or top lane or jungle because of the sole fact everytime my ult was up so was sorakas if I caught someone out they would get 600+ hp since 20 minutes in making me utterly useless so oppressive takes literally no skill and my mortal reminder didnt do anything to stop it....

Humble Aatrox1 votes

doesn't item 3065 counter GW?? edit: and a combination ofitem 3504 item 3107 item 3222

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Pretty sure GW counts second. So it counters SV.

Humble Aatrox1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U6mQZbAq,comment-id=00050000,timestamp=2018-03-03T20:27:34.152+0000)

Pretty sure GW counts second. So it counters SV.

yikes imma test it one day and get the answer

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Re-posting. Seems relevant.

[{quoted}](name=Ariel the Cruel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=WcNJEOBp,comment-id=000e,timestamp=2018-01-14T22:56:01.928+0000)

I disagree GW is OP. It's the primary factor keeping champions like Vlad, Mundo, and Soraka in check. I do agree it's too easy to obtain.

Riot has 2 problem when it come to grievous wounds.

  1. Without GW, you have no effective way to deal with sustain heavy champs.
  2. With GW, you have to balance those champs around the assumption that the opponent will always buy GW.

Personal approach (had I the power): Make GW situational. What this means is, reduce passive application and make it something that both parties have to play around. This lets people have a response to sustain, while not mandating that Sustain be viable through the response. Good examples of GW implementation under this concept: Varus E, MF ult, Kat's ult, Ignite. Bad examples are Executioner's, and bramble vest. Of course, GW shouldn't be a champion specific counter. So examples of how the items could be replaced for general use. . . Bramble Vest: Half effect VS melee champions. Bramble is meant as a response to ADC lifesteal. It does it's job reasonably well for that. This change is just meant to ease the burden a bit on people that actually have to close the gap. Thornmail: Deals double damage to shields. The goal of thorn mail to to make tanks not a walking med-kit for the enemy ADC. The damage is already negligible and shields aren't meant to be an ADC tool anyway. Executioner's Calling: I love this item. Probably because it's a staple buy on Janna (for some reason). But remove and replace it with below. Executioner's hood: Support item. +health. Passive: Deal 5-15 bonus damage on-hit, doubled against non-champions. Active: Create a <Varus E> for 5 seconds that inflict Grevious Wounds on enemies that touch it for 2 seconds; 100 second CD. Morellonomicon: Reshuffle the stats to make this not a rush item. I like the idea of Morello being used to secure kills, and not a general counter. That said, making it a rush item for every mage in the game seems a tad unfair when the goal is to make GW a situational effect. All the sustain heavy problem champions: Nerfed sustain. You had to see this coming. With GW becoming a lot harder to apply, Riot doesn't need to balance these champion in the assumption that it will always be in play. This should make dealing with them feel a bit more fair for everyone else.

Bring on the down-votes.

DorkunedAuras1 votes

Well, Morello is no longer a rush item on every single mage. One problem solved.

Ariel the Cruel1 votes

Yay! The least problematic got checked off!

DorkunedAuras1 votes

Baby steps??

DragonShea1 votes

Make GW a lesser stat and different for every item and champ and lower Regen a small bit. that way item 3123 and item 3076 will only reduce regen by a small amount but no longer be an item to get early but upgrade late as you will have to finish them to get more GW.

Also only the item or effect with the highest GW will be used so it can stack and be abused that way.

So if a lv6 DrMundo gets hit by an item 3123 that now only reduces Regen by 10% compared to his 40% ult heal. He will just laugh but when fighting against a marksman with a item 3033 with 30% GW in a teamfight, he ain't gonna be laughing even if he technically does heal more.

SooFr0sty1 votes

I always felt that grievous wounds show apply in the same manner as cleaver. Small stacks but has a cap to what it is now.

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