Abraham Lincoln once said: "You can't strengethen the weak by weakening the strong"

IsIsGankedParis·Jan 7, 2015·38 votes·3,108 views

Then why is it we see more nerfs than buffs?

The philosophy is that nerfing the strong will make the weaker standout and be picked more.

When in reality that isn't happening.

We nerf the Bruisers of top, some specific ones so that others are used and right when others are used(previously deemed weak) they are then weakened and the cycle continues.

Why can't the weak be strengthened to the level of the strong? This game is turning into a massive mess.

Watch sometime this year a champion like Swain will be considered Tier 1 then nerfed even though he was seen as "weak" but all his counters and whatnot got nerfed.

36 Comments

Salt and VeigarJan 7, 201519 votes

Lincoln never said that, the quote was originally said by William Boetcker

I'm just saying

SecretAgentHulkJan 7, 20154 votes

I'm gonna guess that Boetcker wasn't trying to balance a zero-sum* MOBA either.

(Zero-sum, i.e. giving power to one champ nerfs another in relative power and viability.)

NemuIkaJan 7, 201510 votes

"Don't believe everything you read just because it has a famous guy's name next to it."

-Julius Caesar

Linna ExcelJan 7, 201517 votes

Healthy balance requires a little of both plus a few reworks. But yes, this whack-a-mole nerfing is getting old. If a champ is a little stronger than he should be, maybe riot should buff the counters to that champ or highlight what counters a champ so they don't have to tweak anything.

RaptameiJan 7, 20153 votes

[{quoted}](name=Linna Excel,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U6W2vcIM,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2015-01-07T04:17:31.717+0000)

Healthy balance requires a little of both plus a few reworks. But yes, this whack-a-mole nerfing is getting old. If a champ is a little stronger than he should be, maybe riot should buff the counters to that champ or highlight what counters a champ so they don't have to tweak anything.

If a champion is too strong and you buff the counters then it's counterpick or gg.

Sightless66Jan 7, 20151 votes

That depends. Oftentimes, champions aren't actually too strong, but they are extremely reliable because no one who is good against them is strong, so they show up every game because they never have to face a matchup that is even slightly disadvantageous. Increase the number of disadvantageous matchups and the champion can't just be yolo picked nearly as much.

MEMEME670Jan 7, 201511 votes

Game balance is not as binary as you make it out to be.

Some situations call for nerfs, some call for buffs. It is highly situational, and should not be otherwise.

Sweeping generalizations like this are very rarely true.

Wallaroo0226Jan 7, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Game balance is not as binary as you make it out to be.

Some situations call for nerfs, some call for buffs. It is highly situational, and should not be otherwise.

Sweeping generalizations like this are very rarely true.

Absolutely. I can't stand stupid posts like this. Let's say all things being equal that one champion out of 50 is too strong. It makes no logical sense to buff 49 of them to the level of the other. The whole goal is balance, which means strength relative to other champions. The same people who make comments like the OP then start whining when their champion is in line with others.

Subject 5Jan 7, 20157 votes

I agree completely with you.

And therefore, we will be nerfing Sona into the ground with a nailed coffin rather just digging an eight foot hole.

And after that, we would like to give Lee sin a major late game buff, he is struggling late game and certainly(T) requires a buff to compensate for his late game scaling.

Also, Lulu needs to not be played, she is purple. We prefer the color green, especially with an overloaded kit and a lantern to get anybody out of trouble.

Riot will see this through LeeSin

LongFur FoxJan 7, 20156 votes

The simple answer is that power creep is worse than its opposite.

Remlap1223Jan 7, 20151 votes

Yeah, because they've done so much about mobility creep, the main power creep League has experienced.

LongFur FoxJan 7, 20151 votes

I never said mobility creep is good but adding more creeps is not really the way to solve any problems. If anything im glad that mobility creep is the main thing. Imagine burst or tankiness creeps that would make the game go stale really fast.

ZeroQuest96Jan 7, 20152 votes

Oh, so you mean Season 2 [Tank creep] and Season 3 [Burst Creep? or at least burst everywhere >.>]. But yea I agree, although I wish they'd give some of the more immobile champions some way to at least deal with mobility while still being "immobile".

LongFur FoxJan 7, 20151 votes

I actually don't consider season 2 tank creep but just a lot of circumstances coming together and season 3 was by far not burst creep just everyone getting used to the new pen system. My best bet is that to fix the mobility creep they should make slows and dashes interact since there are a lot of slows tagged on to random abilities (i have a friend who thought qss gave ms for a long time). This would decrease mobility in teamfights but at the cost of actually having to use some thought for it thus making it possible for both parties to outplay the other. That said there are a lot of things which would need re balancing if this happened (immobile casters, knockbacks, and adcs are probably the one that benefit the most) and i have no good way to make it happen beside increase cd on dashes when slowed which i honestly dislike as an idea.

Remlap1223Jan 7, 20151 votes

Season 1: Utility Creep Ashe Season 2: Defense Creep Season 3: Range/Burst Creep Season 4: Mobility Creep Season 5: Power Creep

Riot has failed in mitigating creep across all aspects. Someone is always cheesing the metagame with something.

Ironclad DragonJan 7, 20155 votes

LeeSin Prey upon the weak. Khazix ... I should be going now.

Epilogue of LifeJan 7, 20154 votes

Exactly...BUFF champions, Riot, that's actually a thing.

ScurvyNaveJan 7, 20154 votes

Yeah its pretty much "lets nerf this guy" and all of a sudden the people he counters are too strong and then they get nerfed. Its a retarded cycle examples include recent katarina nerfs, kha nerfs, and lack of lee sin nerfs. Espceillaiy with this new fucking jungle I would love some buffs on champions like Hecarim or Amumu or anyone who got screwed over by new jungle changes.

exiledFromBadmenJan 7, 20151 votes

Like Sejuani or Nautilus (On PBE atm)?

ZeroQuest96Jan 7, 20153 votes

A red has said that Hecarim and others are being looked into for some help in the jungle.

ManwadJan 7, 20151 votes

The ghost pony's only getting a mana cost reduction on his Q along with an increase to the healing cap on his W. Wonder if they're gonna remove the damage reduction on his Q.

ZeroQuest96Jan 7, 20151 votes

I hope they remove the damage reduction on his Q as well. Hecarim needs some early jungle help [as all junglers do.]

iamthegoatofwarJan 7, 20151 votes

I'm gonna be blunt katarina was asking for those nerfs I feared her more than master yi. As for the jungle I think we should start by making raptors weaker -_-.

ScurvyNaveJan 8, 20151 votes

AzlagorJan 7, 20153 votes

the legend of robinhood tells us: take from the strong to strengthen the weak

while nerfing the strong surely isn't the end of all solution, it sometimes(even often) is appropiate. Many of the weak can't siply be buffed without some rework, as their kits have inherent problems that show when they are strong(WW for example) Some could though, and i agree that riot sometimes is to hesitant to do so.

while nerfing the strong can't be the only thing to do, not nerfing them would just lead to powercreep.

we need to follow robin, nerf the strong but also buff the weak, which is what balancing is about(theres alot more to it, but thats what it is in the most simplyfied core)

HorrowJan 7, 20152 votes

Pretty sure Robinhood took from the strong (aka rich) and GAVE to the weak (aka poor)

That sounds like the giving in this case would be buffs instead of money. The guy your quoting is supporting OP's quote lol.

iamthegoatofwarJan 7, 20151 votes

In warwick's defense he didn't need nerfs till that new item came out. and then they hit him AGAIN cause it was still too strong. Problem was the item not warwick.

TheKingDodoJan 8, 20152 votes

Because riot takes too long to actually buff ( Urgot QQ). so the community gets impatient...

HeadHonchkrowJan 8, 20151 votes

The Urgod smiles upon you

Leti the YetiJan 7, 20151 votes

yeah but if we weaken those fuqing bankers, the weak will get some where for sure! dammit lincoln >:I

MetalGearTeemuJan 7, 20151 votes

You're playing the wrong Game if you want a varied champion pool with tons of characters dominant in their specific niche and where weaker ones get great buffs.

You want Dota 2

If you want LC$$$UltraPlays Esports league ( Say I love Dewritos to unlock special bonuses in League of Legends ) etc, this is the game for you.

Angry MonsterJan 7, 20151 votes

context of the quote is wrong. People are not pure numbers that can shuffle. Each person has different skills, drive and talents. Taking from a hard worker and giving to another (country, group, ect) is what the quote is about.

League is a completely numeric game at its core. Each champ is just a program running. Champs do not get happy, try harder, have dreams.

Its really stupid to even quote something like this and try to bring it into a completely numeric system. Get a life

Tin TarantinoJan 7, 20151 votes

Seems like there are a lot more nerfs than buss, probably something that should be balanced a little more towards the buffs

Meep ManJan 7, 20151 votes

They need to do some buffs to outdated champions. Basically, new champions aren't overloaded, they just have all the aspects needed to make their kit successful while many older champions require items to make their kits awesome. That's why there isn't many must buys on new champions.

LearndingJan 7, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Varin Omega,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=U6W2vcIM,comment-id=,timestamp=2015-01-07T04:07:52.507+0000)

Then why is it we see more nerfs than buffs?

The philosophy is that nerfing the strong will make the weaker standout and be picked more.

When in reality that isn't happening.

We nerf the Bruisers of top, some specific ones so that others are used and right when others are used(previously deemed weak) they are then weakened and the cycle continues.

Why can't the weak be strengthened to the level of the strong? This game is turning into a massive mess.

Watch sometime this year a champion like Swain will be considered Tier 1 then nerfed even though he was seen as "weak" but all his counters and whatnot got nerfed.

Are you kidding me, I made like 10 threads about this, and people are still wondering why nerfing champions consistently have negative adverse effects on the game at a latter time.

Spacesuit SpiffJan 8, 20151 votes

Why would a quote about socioeconomics have anything to do with a game like this? It's just the opposite, if there's something as ridiculous as 4.20 WW, it'll have to be nerfed so other junglers can keep up. That's just how a game like this works, even though it's not how an economy works.