Anyone notice that AP shyvana has a 63-66% Win rate?

Illabethe·Feb 28, 2019·21 votes·11,815 views

Yeah. Just noticed this:

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/champion/Shyvana/

In her Tier 1-2 item picks (meaning early game, so EVERY game) AP Shyvana is actually carrying a 63-66% win rate depending on the build path.

It's not her primary build, but the sample size is noticeable, and it's dwarfing the success with any other build path.

It's actually gotten so strong, she's now taking Dark Harvest almost 50% of the time, even though she's normally a low engage, situationally active jungler who has to divert from ganking to farming periodically because of how her ult works.

But then again..... her AD builds aren't weak either. They're pulling 52%'s.

I thought the general consensus was that Shyvana was weak. A Jungler who was not reliable at climbing. That was easy to chisel down as long as you could keep a range on her.

If you look at her stat charts she for the first time in her existence switched from being about 60% Physical damage to being about 80% Magic damage. Yeah. She is now just spamming E, and using R, and burning with W. She's gone mage.

Question is...... Was that how she was designed? To Spam 1 skill and win?

https://champion.gg/champion/Shyvana/Jungle?league=

Also correlates this story. Except..... I want you to look at something: See the left hand strength breakdown? She literally is beating the average in EVERY STAT EXCEPT ASSISTS.

Oh Right...... 8.9 They buffed R to 100% AP scaling and E to 70% AP scaling from 30% And added 1.25% HP damage to her E. (A 5/8ths buff)

Why are people not complaining about this?

Oh. She has a low pick rate. Rofl. (It'll get ignored until she's a 35% pick rate like other champs)

[sg-poppy]

75 Comments

KalikainFeb 28, 201919 votes

The issue is, its a higher win rate when its only been built like 1400-10000 times. Thats a crazy low number of games.

When you see low % of pick rates, we are talking about shyvana one tricks and mains. When you only use stats from people who know how to play her, the stats are going to be crazy boosted.

For example.

A-Sol was sitting at the highest win rate, and is usually always in the top 5 for win rates, but the # of people who play him is like 1/1000th of those who play veigar mid. So we only have the best people playing A-Sol, who are going to have higher win rates because they are already good, and we cant get a good reading because so few bad players, play him.

So why nerf something that isn't really an issue?

Its like nerfing Udyr when only trick2g is good with him at a 70% win rate, where everyone else is 45-49% win rates.

IllabetheFeb 28, 20192 votes

Shyvana currently has a 2% Play Rate. Stat sites reset their counters today.

Champion.GG has tracked 5512 games. Lolalytics has tracked 27,220 games.

The BUILDS that are using AP are tallying up to 14,556. That's more than significant.

If you're talking about the fact I'm posting Plat +, I can't really easily break down lower tiers, because stat sites are not tracking overall among all ranks. Below Plat they segregate them.

https://na.op.gg/champion/shyvana/statistics/jungle

Even puts AP at 58-63%, and they don't segregate.

LankPantsMar 1, 20191 votes

What stats are you reading?

Her highest winrate first item is Red Smite/Bloodrazor, ignoring the outlier 0.8% pickup rate Titanic Hydra. Looking at items bought more than 1% of the time as first items the order is Red Smite/Bloodrazor(53.94%)>Blue Smite/Bloodrazor(53.87%)>Blue Smite/Runic(52.19%)>Nashor's(52.17%)>Red Smite Runic(46.14%)

Her highest winrate builds are also traditional Shyvana builds. All of her high winrate items are AD or tank items other than Meiji's, Deathcap and Spellbinder, 3 win more items you wouldn't even consider unless you were already winning.

It seems to me like traditional Shyv is doing a whole lot better than AP.

ThefrostyvikingMar 1, 20191 votes

Your favored OP.GG lists her as 1,2% pickrate though?

And i think i read you write somewhere that half those were AP shyvs?

So 0,6% AP shyvs are about 60% winrate?

Have you ever heard that you have to factor in both banrate AND playrate when you consider if a winrate is too high or low? Because AP shyv´s pickrate is hella low.

But even if we look at lolalytics she still only has 3% pickrate but by their tally the AP shyv pickrate is about 45% of the total amount or 1,3%.

Still way too damn low to request nerfs.

IllabetheMar 1, 20191 votes

There are 143 champions. We're just talking about Shyvana. And among Shyvana games, 54% are AP. If her Pick Rate/Ban Rate are low, the correlation with Win rate should be significant. If it were high, it would skew results more.

And no. Lolalytics has AP shyvana at 14,400 out of 22,300 games. More than half.

ThefrostyvikingMar 1, 20191 votes

Hm how do you figure her specific numbers? I just looked at her boots of choice, even though not a perfect method last i checked her reddit sorc shoes were core for AP shyv and they have a 47% build rate on lolalytics.

But in regards to the correlation of win vs P/B rate the problem with such a low playrate is that the winrate gets boosted to a extremely significant degree by the fact that diehard mains are playing it.

Its the difference of a Zyra who lands about 70-80% Q´s in lane without dying and one who lands 30-50%, or one that hits every E.

Or a morg who hits 80-100% of her Q´s vs one who only lands 30%.

The difference in results will be staggering, and when nearly every single one is well performing type we´ll naturally see the winrate skyrocket.

IllabetheMar 1, 20191 votes

3% Pick rate in 143 Champions is NOT a small sample size. Nor is 23,000 games!

ThefrostyvikingMar 1, 20191 votes

It is, it really is, especially given that only >50% of that 3%, which is to say 1,5% are actually doing it, and this depending on which site you look at, as mentioned OP.GG puts her at 1,12% pickrate, and then only half of those are playing AP then the AP shyv is less than 0,6%.

Of course given that at least 2 sites put her at about 3% i am more inclined towards them, but even so.......you´re telling me its unreasonable for a population of mains adding up to 1,5% of the playerbase, people who are probably mainly only playing Shyvana to greatly boost her winrate?

We´ve had the same thing happen to a number of champs, actually tons of them, their playrate drop down very low for some reason then their winrate shoots up because the mains still make it work but they are the only ones left playing it.

Nerfing such a champ.........is it not truly beyond ridiculous? If we followed such a logic then about half the entire champion pool needs to be gutted, ASAP, azir/ryze/kalista style.

Then the rest either needs urgent nerfs or reworks to kick them down.

BALDG1VEN BOOMERFeb 28, 20196 votes

At this point it doesn’t matter what the sample size is, I’ve personally been seeing an increased trend in this and almost every single game against a Shyvana I’ve played I went against an AP Shyvana.

It’s uninteresting, boring, bland and unfun. A single E hits me for 900 damage and then I have to go back to base or if she has a Rylais and the secondary damage pops that’s literally a 2 shot it’s ridiculous.

It WILL an increased trend and I and guarantee you it. Better to stop this nonsense now before Shyvana becomes a perma ban soon. Not even low popularity champions break 56%.

SaiannaFeb 28, 20192 votes

In other words: playrates are important stat to check before someone mentions winrates.

LazyW0lfFeb 28, 20192 votes

{quoted} When you see low % of pick rates, we are talking about shyvana one tricks and mains. When you only use stats from people who know how to play her, the stats are going to be crazy boosted.

For example.

A-Sol was sitting at the highest win rate, and is usually always in the top 5 for win rates, but the # of people who play him is like 1/1000th of those who play veigar mid.

This reminds me of the time (IIRC early season 8) that A-Sol jungle was the highest win rate in the game on certain websites, sitting at ~70-75% in the jungle with only something like a 0.001% play rate over double digit games, strictly because there was a single A-Sol jungle one trick in diamond.

Win rate should never be looked at in a vacuum, pick rate and games played always needs to be taken into account for exactly this reason.

Linna ExcelMar 1, 20193 votes

I miss AD shyvana.

Dear balance team, shyvana is supposed to be an AD bruiser, not a glass cannon mage. Get thine noxious excrement together.

Z3SleeperFeb 28, 20192 votes

0.3% build rate though haha.

I can almost guarantee you that that's just Nightblue

IllabetheMar 1, 20192 votes

AP build Shyvana is over 54% of all builds right now. Where are you getting .3%? It's even 50% of pro builds.

Z3SleeperMar 1, 20191 votes

Oh I meant the 63-66% one. Unless I'm using this site wrong idk wtf I'm doing. Now I can't even remember where I saw it cuz I was delirious from all nightering a study session for 3 midterms @_@. Like, I can't find what I saw anymore.

Can you like screenshot it?

Edit: Oh did you mean full builds? I'm looking at first two items. Think I'm reading title wrong haha. That's why it's 0.3. Got itttt

Just Blame JennyMar 1, 20191 votes

I don't know if Nightblue's been doing it, but IWillDominate has been.

AP Shyvana is genuinely pretty solid right now (at least, according to challenger players that know better than me).

For my part, I have mixed success playing her. I usually do extremely well, (i.e. personal stat-wise) but teammates often don't understand they need to play around my ult. Without ult, I'm basically a caster minion.

I lose more games than I win. I feel like AP Shyvana would fare better at higher elo, with more coordinated teams. But idk.

Linna ExcelMar 1, 20191 votes

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items/shyvana

LOG seems to say that AP shyvana is much more popular than AD atm.

OneMustFallMar 1, 20192 votes

https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/champions/items/shyvana

Ehh no...not really.

Her core items show a higher win rate when she's building normal than when she goes AP. AP Shyvana is one of those builds that probably catch some people off guard but unless she gets ridiculously fed early, it's not nearly as effective as her regular build.

IllabetheMar 1, 20191 votes

Are you and I even looking at the same 'Graphs' page?

AP dominates her win rates and pick rates.

There is one combination of AD items that are doing okay.

Furthermore, LoG is the ONLY outlier citing poor win rates.

OneMustFallMar 1, 20193 votes

{quoted}

Are you and I even looking at the same 'Graphs' page?

AP dominates her win rates and pick rates.

There is one combination of AD items that are doing okay.

Furthermore, LoG is the ONLY outlier citing poor win rates.

No it's not, you're just interpreting the statistics incorrectly. According to the very sites you used, her winrate is 52% when she builds Runic Echoes vs 54% when she builds Bloodrazor. Taking her full item path and using the statistics from that is silly because naturally her winrate will be higher when she is able to get all of her items, because usually that means she is fed. It is the same for any champion out there, most champions have much higher win rates (above 60%) when they get their core items built. The amount of times an AP Shyvana is even allowed to get three items built is likely very low as the game is probably already over. It's why pretty much any champion that builds Mejais has 70% win rates. It's not because that item is OP, it's because the user is so fed they purchase that item to continue to snowball and end the game.

IllabetheMar 1, 20191 votes

No..... according to the sites I linked, the win rates correlated with a specific item build only goes as far as the actual games' purchases do. In a reasonable game, Shyvana purchases at LEAST 3-4 items. The 52% is correlated only to the games where she ended before buying a second item.

item 1402 item 3115 item 3089 has an almost 63% Win rate.

item 3115 item 1402 item 3089 has a 66.67% Win rate.

OneMustFallMar 1, 20192 votes

{quoted}

No..... according to the sites I linked, the win rates correlated with a specific item build only goes as far as the actual games' purchases do. In a reasonable game, Shyvana purchases at LEAST 3-4 items. The 52% is correlated only to the games where she ended before buying a second item.

has an almost 63% Win rate.

has a 66.67% Win rate.

That is not how that works. The 52% correlates to all games that item was built first regardless of how many items Shyvana finishes with. The easiest way to determine whether certain playstyles are better for a champion is to look at the most popular first items and compare them. Why? Because those items will almost always be built regardless of what build path the player decides on.

According to LOLalytics, Shyvana has built item 1402 in 10,340 games.

Out of those 10,340 games she builds item 1402 item 3115 item 3089 in 529 games.

That is around 5% of all games where item 1402 is built first.

Out of that 5% she has a 64.46% win rate. If we account for her other build path item 1416 that means in roughly 2.5% of all Shyvana games she has a 64.46% win rate when she builds those items in that order. Not only is that an insignificant sample size to make any kind of definitive judgement on, any person who plays the game would also understand that item 3089 is a snowball item, which means it's usually only built third if the player is way ahead.

Overall item 3089 has a 60.15% winrate when built on Shyvana, which is actually low compared to other champions who wind up building the item in a game. For example Teemo has a 61.45% winrate when building the item in a game. To summarize here, the only claim these statistics would support is that AP Shyvana is viable, albeit not as effective as her standard build. I would even argue that the AP build is artificially keeping Shyvana from being noticed as the best jungler in the game in terms of win rate.

IllabetheMar 1, 20191 votes

You're excluding other purchase orders of those items.
If your speculation was true, Shyvana's damage would not be 70+ % Magic. Her standard build puts out about 60%, and has a 10% lower kill participation. Her Standard build also doesn't take Dark Harvest, yet it's at 48% pick rate.

Nashors (Not Death Cap) is carrying the win rate, because it is ALWAYS bought, and as you said, the death cap is situational.

7 out of 10 pros are building her AP right now. You're calling them all wrong.

E is literally doing 1400+ damage in mid-late game right now.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/item/3089/ < Death Cap by Pick Rate: Shyvana is 15+% and one of the top 20.

Shyvana is also one of the first 11 to buy it, coming in at 27 minutes.

Nashors: Shyvana is the 4th highest pick for Nashors at 43.6% https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/item/3115/

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/item/1402/ Shyvana is the 6th most frequent user of a Runic Echoes.

OneMustFallMar 1, 20191 votes

{quoted}

You're excluding other purchase orders of those items.

If your speculation was true, Shyvana's damage would not be 70+ % Magic. Her standard build puts out about 60%, and has a 10% lower kill participation. Her Standard build also doesn't take Dark Harvest, yet it's at 48% pick rate.

Nashors (Not Death Cap) is carrying the win rate, because it is ALWAYS bought, and as you said, the death cap is situational.

7 out of 10 pros are building her AP right now. You're calling them all wrong.

E is literally doing 1400+ damage in mid-late game right now.

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/item/3089/ < Death Cap by Pick Rate: Shyvana is 15+% and one of the top 20.

Shyvana is also one of the first 11 to buy it, coming in at 27 minutes.

Nashors: Shyvana is the 4th highest pick for Nashors at 43.6% https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/item/3115/

https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/platinum/plus/item/1402/ Shyvana is the 6th most frequent user of a Runic Echoes.

Not sure what you're trying to argue here. item 3115 actually has a lower winrate (52.08%) when it is built first than item 1402 . When it is built as a second item, Shyvana's winrate in games is 54.47%, which is lower than other 2nd items such as item 3022 (56.17) and item 3748 (55.89).

In terms of Dark Harvest, her winrate is also lower than when she uses Press the Attack or Conqueror. Also gonna need a source on 7/10 pros building her AP cause I'm not seeing that.

So far you've posted claims that Shyvana is one of the most common Runic Echoes users and Nashors. I could see that being true because there's not a lot of champions who build these items at all in the current meta. But there is nothing that remotely suggests that her AP build is better than her standard build in anything you've posted. In fact, every statistic points to the contrary.

haaaaaaalpFeb 28, 20191 votes

What am I missing here? I'm seeing first item runic echo ranging from 52-54%. It is high but not in the 60's

IllabetheFeb 28, 20191 votes

There's two different build paths and the one that is winning is finishing item 3115 before the Echo. It's also viable in top lane, but stat sites are not tracking it.

Shyvana is the 4th biggest gold gaining jungler in the game, btw, so she tends to lean toward 3-4 item sets in short games, vs other junglers.

At 3 items, her R literally halfs your HP, which is why they are taking Dark Harvest. E and R are not hard to hit, and do more damage than Zyra's Q/E combined per skill shot.

Romans VI XXIIIFeb 28, 20193 votes

Why r we comparing a basic and ulti to 2 basics. By this logic shy needs buffs if 1 basic and her ult is roughly equivalent to 2 basics on zyra. Lol failed logic at its finest.

IllabetheFeb 28, 20192 votes

No. I'm comparing her ult to 2 basics alone. Her E puts her damage HIGHER than Zyra. The AP scaling is higher on both, and the base damage is higher on both.

Zyra Q: 60 / 95 / 130 / 165 / 200 (+ 60% AP) E: 60 / 105 / 150 / 195 / 240 (+ 50% AP) (And these have delays)

Shyvana E: 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 (+ 30% AD) (+ 70% AP) R: 150 / 250 / 350 (+ 100% AP)

Shyvana's post E burn is also more powerful than Zyra's plants, and the range is also longer.

We could quibble about me not talking about Zyra's R, but in reality, there's too many differences between Burnout and Stranglethorns to really bring them into the conversation. There's also the fact Shyvana lacks a functional passive, while technically so does Zyra, since both her passive and W are basically the same thing, and only slightly augment her Q and E.

For what it's worth, we can compare Shyvana ult to Zyra Ult:

180 / 265 / 350 (+ 70% AP) is Zyra's. Shyvana's is actually stronger, relocates enemies and her, and has no delay.

Let me frame this another way.

Look at Lissandra's Q (her spammable) Flame Breath passes through enemies, so it's a pretty apt comparison. 925 Range.

Lissandra's Q is 725 Range. And other than her Q, Lissandra does not have reliable damage. She's very similar to Shyvana in that she has one opportunity to either engage or escape, but not both. And Shyvana is outspamming her in range, damage, etc.

Romans VI XXIIIFeb 28, 20193 votes

But u r still comparing a basic with an ult. Of course an ult should be stronger lmfao.

IllabetheFeb 28, 20192 votes

No... I'm comparing TWO Basics to an ult, combined. The Q and E I'm talking about on Zyra is her entire kit. Shyvana still has Q, W as additional damage. Shyvana's Ult alone does the combined damage of Zyra's Q and E.

And I also compared an "ult to an ult." Shyvana's does MORE than Zyra's, as a mage. It also does more to create a win condition, because Zyra's damage is avoidable, and the Knockup is delayed.

Romans VI XXIIIFeb 28, 20196 votes

No, you compared 2 basics to 1 basic and an ult. STOP. If you think Q and E is zyra entire kit the u r missing out on how to play zyra lol. Before we can have a conversation you first need a basic understanding lol

IllabetheFeb 28, 20192 votes

For what it's worth, we can compare Shyvana ult to Zyra Ult:

180 / 265 / 350 (+ 70% AP) is Zyra's. Shyvana's is actually stronger, relocates enemies and her, and has no delay.

I literally wrote that in the first reply.

Zyra has 30% less AP scaling on her ult, 10% less AP scaling on her Q than Shyv's E, PLUS Shyv's scales with whatever AD she has.

I have over 4 million combined Mastery with Zyra. Her Q and E are most of her kit. Plants die in .5 seconds vs people who have even half a clue how to play, R is entirely avoidable. Her 3 damage skills are literally dwarfed by 2 of Shyvana's. Zyra doesn't have % damage built into her overscaled E either. She doesn't have mobility skills. And this isn't about Zyra. This is about how Shyvana literally outscales one of the most hated mages in the game.

AIQFeb 28, 20192 votes

So first off, If you guys think that AP Shyvana is easy to pull off. By all means do it. I'm not saying it's weak/strong, but it has clear weaknesses. I gave it a good long try and it costed me a ton of games. Maybe it's because I was doing something wrong, but it's hard to get allies to understand to play around your ult.

Comparing a Q/E from Zyra with no plants is unfair, but Shyvanas heres a huge difference you are not comparing. Shyvana has to JUMP IN to deal that damage from her ult as a uber squishy champ.

Yes her E does more damage with ult on, but her Q/W don't benefit a whole lot from AP, and if you are saying.... "Well she still has Q/W" Zyra Still has plants and R. There is no comparison here, Zyra deals more damage. Shyvana can just use her E much safer that Zyra and it's much easier to land.

You are comparing 2 basic abilities to an empowered E due to transforming. To be fair you must empower Zyras Q/E with plants and the ult as well.

The reason AP Shyvana is strong is ganks and clumped teamfights. When she ganks she can constantly E from range and not even worry about getting close chunking enemies as they flee. Teamfights she must land 2-3 man Es but when she does the fight is usually decided.

Personally I like having the both options. I played 2 games where I was AD, then my team drafted full AP and said we need AP. It was nice to be able cover that.

AP Shyvana is not oppressive. Don't talk like it's op. It would've already been used in pro to counter Karthus which it's insanely good into.

IllabetheMar 1, 20191 votes

You need to start Nashors. It's easy. That drops E to 6.6 seconds. It's as good as any mage harass in the game, and it boosts her W and Q rate. 40% CDR drops it to 4.4 seconds, which is about what Zyra takes.
I play a lot of champs who have to jump in, and don't have this utility: .
You're wrong on Zyra. Zyra's plants recieved a friggin 24-12% damage nerf, and they always die before they can even attack in good play. Plants only punish low elos.
It already IS used in Pro. Half of Pros are building it.

AIQMar 1, 20192 votes

Zyras E scales about the same as Shyvanas. Zyra: E 60/105/150/195/240 (+50% Ability Power) Shyvana: E 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 (+70% Ability Power)

With 100AP thats only +20 making up for the fact that Zyras E scales better. So 1-6 her EQ EASILY outclasses Shyvana.

Now with Dragon Shyvana gains 100-200 (+30% Ability Power)
Lets measure Zyras Q against it Zyra: Q 60/95/130/165/200 (+60% Ability Power)

Zyras Q scales harder than Shyvanas Dragon buff.

Combined Zyras 2 abilites at lets say level 13 So they are both maxed out. Zyra vs Shyvana: 440+110% AP > 370 +100%AP

Now I'm going to help you a bit. Shyvana also has a tick per second that deals 60-120 + 30% AP lets slap one tick on there. At 80 DMG (lvl 13) Zyra vs Shyvana: 440+110% AP < 450 +130%AP

But if we are going to be fair to Shyvana you at least hit 2 plants that AA right? Each plant deals 50 DMG + 15% ap

Zyra vs Shyvana: 540+140% AP > 450 +130%AP

But What about QW!? Q has not AP scaling so we are literally just AAing, and W is ~70 Damage a tick. I wont get into numbers but you can. I am 110% confident that a AP Zyra deals more damage with R than Shyvana with Q/W This is the threshold Zyras R: 180/265/350 (+70% Ability Power)

Now we are ignoring a lot of things Zyra has a Root/Slow/minions/MUCH bigger AOE, and Shyvana has safety no cost and a timer. But over all I think you can see that the Zyras QE deals more than Shyvanas E alone. And that her burst combo far exceeds Shyvanas.

none of those champions jump in, least they better not. Karma should never go in.... ever.... Ahri skirts around the fight and deals WAY more damage then Shyvana. We don't need stats for this one Morg should not be going in, but in rare situations she does. Most of the time though her ult is used for peeling not engaing. Shyvana must start a fight ulting whether that be used to start Eing from far or hit someone, morg can hold or not even use hers.

Wait WHAT PROS!?? I want to see. What games?!? I love watching Shvyana games.

IllabetheMar 1, 20191 votes

You're pulling numbers out of your butt.

Dunno where you're getting 30% Dragon form AP from. No part of Shyvana's kit has 30% Scaling at all to AP.

You're also leaving out two things:

-Shyvana E grants % Magic damage. -Shyvana Dragon Form E leaves a burning circle, and scales to TOTAL AD, not just Bonus, and does additional 60-120 damage. -Shyvana E also has AD scaling in human form. In other words, if at level 11, the added AD damage from not building AD at all is 30.

Suppose Zyra and Shyvana both have 400 AP, level 11:

Zyra E: 350 Damage (Plus maybe 2-3 short 400 range plants, which at best get 1 hit off and at worst get 0 hits off) Shyvana E: 530 Damage. Shyvana E with Dragon Form: 530 damage + 85 +10 + 80 = 705 just from the initial hit. If someone is not quick to get off the scorched earth, it does MORE.

If you want to include Zyra's Q, because Shyvana's behaves differently, then it's STILL 790 for casting 2 abilities versus one.

And then you look at Shyvana's Ult + Zyra's Ult:

Shyvana Ult hits for 650 Zyra ult hits for 545.

So just between the rare non-utility damage of these kits:

Shyvana Human Form: 530 damage Shyvana Dragon Form: 1355 damage Zyra Whole Kit: 1335 Damage.

Not only does Shyvana outfront damage more than Zyra as a Mage, she has no mana costs, and her skills leave persistent effects, like the burning ground, which do FAR more damage than plants, and her Q and W aren't even being considered in this damage equation yet, even though Q double procs Nashors, and scales off total (not bonus) AD.

You really have never played Karma if you believe she doesn't go in. But keep to your "Just R>Q it" Karma beliefs.
Ahri does not deal more damage than Shyvana either. In one cookie cutter build she's good at deleting adcs. That's it. She is "Safer" but by no means does more damage.
Yampi Revolta Minerva Jankos Cariok are all currently building AP Shyvana.

AIQMar 1, 20191 votes

In the LEC or on Stream? Huge difference?

You think I'm lying or making stuff up?? What? XD First off, you are telling a Shyvana main that he doesn't know his numbers. As you pathetically try to make stuff up. You obviously have NO IDEA how Shyvana works if you don't know where the 30% comes from.

Second I was under the impression that we were only talking about the E burst only, but you need to be fair when adding damage to the initial up front burst.

If you want to do a FULL combo then Zyra must do a FULL combo of equivalent means.

You want numbers HERE YA GO stop making stuff up. Shyvana 110.2 ad level 13 important later

Flame Breath Active: Shyvana unleashes a fireball that stops after hitting a champion. All enemies hit take magic damage and are marked for 5 seconds. Shyvana's basic attack against marked targets deal [+3.25% their maximum] as magic damage on hit. Dragon Form: Flame Breath explodes on impact or at the target location, dealing bonus magic damage and scorching the earth for 4 seconds. Enemies on scorched earth take magic damage per second. Cost: No Cost Cooldown: 12 / 11 / 10 / 9 / 8 seconds Range: 925 Area of Effect: Dragon's Descent.png 220 / 240 / 260 Magic Damage: 60 / 100 / 140 / 180 / 220 (+70%) (R)Bonus Damage: 100 - 200 (+30%) (R) Damage per second: 60 - 120 (+20%)

Dragons Decent Cost: 5 Fury per second Range: 850 Passive: Shyvana generates Fury every second. Basic Attacks generate 2 Fury. Active: Shyvana transforms into a dragon, gaining Heath and flying towards the target location. Enemies along her path take magic damage ad are knocked towards her target location. Fury: 1 / 1.5 / 2 Magic Damage: 150 / 250 / 350 (+100%) Bonus Health: 150 / 250 / 350 Bonus Attack Range: 175 / 190 / 205

Burnout Cost: No Cost Cooldown: 12 seconds Area of Effect: 325 | (With R >) 350 / 365 / 380 Active: Shyvana deals magic damage per second to nearby enemies and gains Movement Speed that dacays over 3 seconds. While Burnout is active, basic attacks deal magic damage to nearby enemies and extend its duration by 1 second. Burnout has a maximum duration fo 7 seconds. Dragon Form: Burnout grows in size. Damage per Second: 20 / 35 / 50 / 65 / 80 (+20% bonus AD) Movement Speed: 30 / 35 / 40 / 45 / 50% On-hit Damage: 5 / 8.75 / 12.5 / 16.25 / 20 (+5% bonus AD) (+2.5% AP)

Twin Bite Cost: No Cost Cooldown: 9 / 8 / 7 / 6 / 5 seconds Active: Shyvana strikes twice on her next attack. While Twin Bite is on cooldown, basic attacks reduce the remaining cooldown duration by 0.5 seconds. Dragon Form: Twin Bite cleaves all units in front of Shyvana. Second Strike Damage: (+20 / 35 / 50 / 65 / 80% total AD)

Zyra 95AD AT 13

Garden of Thorns [Passive] Area of Effect: 900 Innate: Seeds spawn around Zyra periodically, becoming faster with level and lasting 45 seconds (Max: 8 seeds planted). If an enemy Champion steps on a seed, it dies. If Zyra is hiding in brush, the seed will not spawn until she reveals herself. Cast Deadly Spines or Grasping roots near seeds causes them to grow plants. Extra plants striking the same target deal 50% less damage. Spawn Rate: 13 - 8.5 seconds Magic Damage: 20 - 100 (+15%)

Deadly Spines Cost: 70 Mana Cooldown: 7 / 6.5 / 6 / 5.5 / 5 seconds Range: 800 Active: Thick vines spread through the ground and explode into spines, dealing agic damage to enemies within the area. Garden of Thorns: If Deadly Spines is cast near a seed, a Thorn Spitter grows, dealing magic damage. A Thorn Spitter has 575 range and lasts 8 seconds. Magic Damage: 60 / 95 / 130 / 165 / 200 (+60%)

Grasping Roots Cost: 70 / 75 / 80 / 85 / 90 Mana Cooldown: 12 seconds Range: 1100 Active: Sends forward vines dealing magic damage and rooting enemies. Garden of Thorns: If Deadly Spines is cast near a seed, a Vine Lasher grows dealing magic damage and slowing enemies by 30% for 2 seconds. A Vine Lasher has 400 range and lasts 8 seconds. Magic Damage: 60 / 95 / 130 / 165 / 200 (+50%) Root: 1 / 1.25 / 1.5 / 1.75 / 2 seconds

Stranglethorns Cost: 100 / 120 / 140 Mana Cooldown: 130 / 120 / 110 seconds Range: 700 Active: Summons the fury of nature, growing a twisted thicket at target location which deals magic damage to all enemies in the area as it expands. After 2 seconds, the vines snap upward knocking enemies into the air for 1 second. Garden of Thorns: Plants within the thicket are enraged, resetting their duration, gaining 50% Health and attacking in a flurry for 200% total damage. Magic Damage: 180 / 265 / 350 (+70%)

Now with all these beautiful numbers accurate as of today. Lets take your 400 AP at level 13 (So you have 2 points in ult and 5 in both Q/E for simplicity) Also 400 at level 13 is a lot you usually have 200-250, but I'll let it slide. Really don't care you could be fed.

Zyra E Only vs Shyvana E Only 200 (+50%) < 220 (+70%) 400 < 500 So they do scale similar with no additional sources yes Shyvana has the %HP dmg of 3.5%, but Zyra has a root and AOE, literally hitting 2 targets gives her 2x damage. But in a 1v1 that doesn't matter edge Shyvana.

Now Adding Q to it would make it simply Zyra favored so lets skip to Zyras QE Vs Shyvans RE (we are literally comparing basic abilities to an ult lol this is so sad) We are at 400 < 500 with E vs E Shyvana gains 150 (+30% Ability Power) for being a dragon using E Zyra: Q 200 (+60% Ability Power) so Z:440 S:120 Zyra: Pressing and landing Q/E = 840 Damage. Shyvana: Landing E as a Dragon is 620 Damage

But what if Shyvana lands 1 tick of her AOE burn. +80 and (+2% of (enemy)Hp lets say 2k to be generous) +120 Full QE vs Full Empowered E Z: 840 > S: 740

Keeping up? All we've calculated was your "guess" that Shyvanas empowered E does more than Zyras Q/E Which is false.

NOW lets have some more fun. If Shyvana Lands her ult she deals. + 250 (+100%) or 400 Sky rocketing her +650 to Z: 840 << S: 1390 now since we are here lets add more to Shyvana 1 Tick of W and a Twin bite for a full burst. W will be maxed at level 13 so 80 (+20% bonus AD)20 (+5% bonus AD) (+2.5% AP) at 400 AP is = +90 dmg the Q slaps an additional 22 from the on hit + 40 from the E to 152 dmg Q deals 20% total AD as Shyvana will not have any AD in this build we can say easily 110.2 + 22.04 Slapping on another 132.24 dmg for the dragon lady. SO +284.24 Bringing Shyvanas grand total burst combo to Z: 840 <<<< S: 1674.24

So I guess if Shyvana hits you with everything yes she deals 2x more than your Q/E. lol Now to make this more fair lets first slap on Zyras giant AOE ult. That hits 5 people multiple times meaning it could deal 5x damage,but we are ignoring that. 265 (+70%) 280 = 545 at level 13 with 400 AP Bring it much closer fast 1385 < 1674.24

Now Zyra has these things you might of heard of called plants and AA. For the sake of fULl BuRsT we are going to through in he AA now. +95 1480 < 1674.24 Now her plants. Lets say we got only 2 plants (I'm being super generous here) and each on deals 2 AA (the ultimate gives 50% atkspd) at level 13 she deals 80* dmg +15AP (60dmg) per hits (its scales 4.4 per level I added 2.7 damage sue me) So 140 per AA there are 2 plants for 280 each has attacked 2 times 560

Zyra total burst without the second AA Z: 1760 > S: 1674.24

With the second realistic AA from plants Z: 2040 >> 1674.24

As you can see Zyra still deals more damage OMG who'd a thought. Lets throw a banshees in here.

Zyra 1800 >>> Shyvana -2 I made those up if you couldn't tell.

Next time you want to say someone is lying make sure you check the facts before you start typing.

I'm not doing Ahri, I dont care. Due to this conversation I'm sure I'm right and you are only using head cannon. Karma is a play style choice. I max E idk what game you are playing lol.

IllabetheMar 1, 20191 votes

You Do realize you're making your argument weaker every time you respond?

https://leagueoflegends.fandom.com/wiki/Shyvana

The wiki doesn't break down the Ult's additional damage. That's EVEN MORE damage that I didn't account for. Everything else is in line with what I said.

And No. Nothing I wrote was a guess..... It was all math.

Zyra Q: 200+ .6(400) = 440 Damage Zyra E: 240 +.5 (400) = 440 Damage Zyra R: 265 + .7(400) = 545 Damage

Plants. That's her entire kit.

Total Excluding Plants: 1425.

Shyvana E: 220 + .3(103) +.7(400) = 531 Damage

Shyvana Dragon Form E: Human Form PLUS .3AD(103) +.3AP(400) + 135 = 822 + Scorched Earth damage (Which starts the second it lands....) With one tick, 95 + .2 AP (400) +.1(103) = 185 damage. Total E damage per cast on Dragon Form: 1007 R: 650 damage.

Total Excluding W Burnout, and Q: 1657. (Never mind that Burnout is always on when Shyvana is diving...)

Also, you're acting like Shyvana can't nuke multiple champions. SHE CAN. and does more damage with it than Zyra does.

(And before you go try to test this in practice..... I did, and a target dummy has 100 Mag Resist, and I did a 669 E at level 13 with 3 items. At 900 AP, I did over 1300 with E in its initial hit)

AIQMar 1, 20191 votes

I missed the AD scaling sorry.

You cant remove Zyras plants, they are core to her. Lets just do R/E with empowered plants on Zyra lets do 2 AA to be fair. 985+560 = 1545 Still less than Shyvana 1657 But Zyra gets a root + knock up so... even?

Regardless. My primary concern was this...

No. I'm comparing her ult to 2 basics alone. Her E puts her damage HIGHER than Zyra. The AP scaling is higher on both, and the base damage is higher on both.

I thought you meant that her E alone deals more damage than Zyras Q/E If you want to slap the R in then true, but then you have to factor that Zyra doesn't need to get near her target or land a slow ult.

As your stats show it's Z: 880 to S: 531 As for empowered S: 1007 Sure, but again Zyras damage comes form plants not her abilities. If you're adding in these ticks etc. 2 AA from the plants brings her 560 damage. Putting her around 1440. -280 if you want just one AA.

Do I think Shyvana deals more damage than Zyra overall? Yes. Do I think she has more burst/reliable damage? No. Do I think AP Shyvana can wipe a team, yes. I've done it. I've carried games. Do I think Zyra would lose 1000 1v1s to Shyvana yes. Do I think Zyra and shyvana are in bad spots? Yes.

At the end of the day we are comparing apples and oranges. And this is getting very stupid very fast. I get that you think Shyvana is op (for some reason). So no matter what I say you will twist the argument to support see MORE DAMAGE. I was trying to keep the factors fair and practical, but clearly that's not your concern.

I'm going to sum up my whole argument in one sentence. If you are saying that Shyvanas empowered E deals more than a basic Q/E combo with no plants then yes, if we factor plants in then no.

According to our evidence, this is irrefutable.

AIQMar 1, 20191 votes

Whoops replied to myself. I missed the AD scaling sorry.

Regardless. My primary concern was this...

No. I'm comparing her ult to 2 basics alone. Her E puts her damage HIGHER than Zyra. The AP scaling is higher on both, and the base damage is higher on both.

I'm going to sum up my whole argument in one sentence. If you are saying that Shyvanas empowered E deals more than a basic Q/E combo with no plants then yes, if we factor plants in then no.

According to our evidence, this is irrefutable.

Romans VI XXIIIFeb 28, 20192 votes

Oooh now look, we r back tracking and changing our wording around now that we got caught not knowing what we r talking about.

"Most" and "entire" are not even nearly the same thing are they? So is it "most" zyra kit or her "entire" kit.

Idc that you compared zyra ult to shy ult, that's perfectly valid. But what's not valid is comparing 2 basics to 1 basic and 1 ult which you have done this entire time lmfao.

Although I think you comparison of shy ult to zyra ult is completely skewed and bias.

ProfirixFeb 28, 20191 votes

She really isn't that big of an issue. If your team has any meaningful CC on it or the ability to kite, she struggles pretty badly.

Everyone seems to forget that AP Shyvana is USELESS in human form and she has to charge her fury to get dragon form, mainly by auto attacking stuff. Her sample size is too small honestly to make decisions about buffs or nerfs. It speaks more to the fact that she needs a total rework.

IllabetheMar 1, 20191 votes

What are you smoking? At 40% CDR, E is a 4.4 second cooldown aoe with 70% AP scaling/30% AD scaling that deals more damage than Zyra, and passes through all targets up to 925 range. Not useless in human form at all.....

The only thing AP Shyvana gains in drake form is a single use Ult damage, and an additional ground burn effect on E.

E is still a massive wave clear AND champion poker in human form.

ProfirixMar 1, 20191 votes

First, it doesnt pass through ALL targets. It stops at the first champion hit. Second, her power is from the empowered E in dragon form that is NOT associated with cooldown reduction. She has ONE skill that makes her powerful as an AP champion. She falls off late game.

IllabetheMar 1, 20191 votes

No....... In Human Form her E passes through, In Drake form it explodes on hit, and creates a burn circle after dealing the initial damage.

ProfirixMar 1, 20191 votes

"Shyvana unleashes a fireball that stops after hitting a champion. All enemies hit take 60/100/140/180/220 (+0.3 ability power) magic damage and are marked for 5 seconds.

Shyvana’s basic attacks against marked targets deal 2.5% of their maximum health as magic damage on hit.

Dragon Form: Flame Breath explodes on impact or at target location, dealing 100~200 (at levels 1-18) (+0.3 ability power) bonus magic damage and scorching the earth for 4 seconds. Enemies on scorched earth take 60-120 (from levels 1-18) (+0.2 ability power) magic damage per second.

Flame Breath’s on-hit damage against monsters is capped at 100 damage per hit."

This is a little outdated, but the effect has not been updated. Only numbers.