Riot wanting APCs and ADCs to go 5 damage items.
Nobody else is allowed to damage anything (lol not even against glass cannons) reliably (lol right clicks aren't too reliable or anything) or they get nerfed or are considered 'unhealthy' and get slated for an eventual rework.
ModWulf Helhammer4 votesConfused as to what you're saying here
Ralanr14 votesWaves hand
Oh, oh, I know!
He thinks that champions being balanced around going full glass cannon is stupid and mixtures of durability and defense get punished because of it.
WoonStruck7 votesPretty much this.
_Edit: I misread as durability and damage, which I'm sure is what he intended to say. _
ModWulf Helhammer1 votesSo let my know if I got this right: you're upset that damage dealers are susceptible to being killed easily as recompense for having strong damage?
WoonStruck18 votesNo. **You seem like you're trying to shove words into people's mouths because you can't provide an actual argument. **
I'm upset that any time something can reliably kill a glass cannon (who should be easy to reliably kill without outside influence), Riot nerfs it, _rather than glass cannons actually needing to deviate a tiny bit from damage. _
Anything a glass cannon can't delete fast enough causes glass cannons to receive additional tools, or for said thing to be nerfed.
Glass cannons effectively do not give anything up because the game is balanced around them.
They aren't the low-end of survivability. They are the standard for survivability. If they can't survive reliably, Riot nerfs something for punishing their choice to go glass cannon. That is wrong from a design stand-point.
TheHappyReaperz3 votesLike Sion? Or Malphite? Or Blitz? Lots of champs can kill squishes, it is when there is no counterplay to someone killing a squishy, Riot has to change it.
WoonStruck10 votesNot everything needs counterplay. If it did, Syndra's ult wouldn't exist. Cass wouldn't exist in general. Kass wouldn't exist as he is (no, him being a weak champion atm does not qualify as counterplay). ADCs in general wouldn't exist.
In fact, the more you look at squishies, the more you realize only champions that aren't generally squishy are prohibited from having low counterplay.
Counterplay is supposed to be peel from your team, not making whatever champion that supposedly lacks it useless compared to squishy ranged champions so that said squishy ranged champions don't have to worry about anything.
NineTailedMystic5 votesCounterplay is supposed to be peel from your team
People need to figure out if they want this to be a premade 5 man game or a solo queue game.
WoonStruck1 votesIt wasn't a premade 5 game in seasons 3 and earlier and peel worked just fine.
NineTailedMystic2 votesBeing reliant on your team for the only counterplay, in which the player being peeled has no input, will not work in a sheer solo queue environment.
Ha1man4 votesIt's a problem with ADC role - their damage is far too reliable AND they get to hyper scale to boot.
Let's just give them all Jhin treatment - make all of their auto attacks targeted skillshots, set them at a fixed attack speed of around 1 shot per 1-2 seconds and make %attackspeed stat increase their damage instead.
This way they do not have the 100% reliable damage, require actual skill to play, and let other roles have their fair share of carry-ability. Healthier design all around.
ADC champions can then get more defensive/mobility tools to assist survival in their new reality, since currently a large part of power budget of any ADC lies in the auto attack mechanic in general.
Ralanr1 votesIt's a problem with ADC role - their damage is far too reliable AND they get to hyper scale to boot.
Let's just give them all Jhin treatment - make all of their auto attacks targeted skillshots, set them at a fixed attack speed of around 1 shot per 1-2 seconds and make %attackspeed stat increase their damage instead.
This way they do not have the 100% reliable damage, require actual skill to play, and let other roles have their fair share of carry-ability. Healthier design all around.
ADC champions can then get more defensive/mobility tools to assist survival in their new reality, since currently a large part of power budget of any ADC lies in the auto attack mechanic in general.
As much as I like Jhin's ammo system, it's far too late in League to revamp all marksmen to have such a combat system.
We're stuck with it.
Votable Jester1 votesSyndra's ult has counterplay.
, 
, and (to avoid it) 
Cass has the counterplay of outrange, burst, or out-dps her. If you want to tank her, that's like wanting to be able to tank the adc.
Even Kass's ult has some counterplay. He's extremely reliant on it to both avoid damage and get in range to put out his own damage. If you save your cc until it's on cooldown, you can hit him with that when he can't avoid it.
There are also non-squishy champions that lack counterplay. What's the counterplay to Malphite's ult? You can't cc him during it, so do you Flash it? Yeah those cooldowns are comparable.
Same thing with Olaf. The only way to get away from him is have enough of your own mobility to get away from him or be able to kill him faster than he can kill you.
Vi ult? You can't even run away from that. Literally the only real counterplay to that is , and even then she has plenty of time to set up a Q for when you pop back out.
FYI, I don't hate any of these champions. The only one i've played a significant number of games on is Malphite. None of those mages are among my preferred picks. Counterplay is a good thing to have, but it isn't always there. This is true of both squishies and tanks alike.
ModWulf Helhammer1 votesFirst: the only one putting words in someone's mouth is you. I was trying to clarify what your point was, and now that you've said that, I can answer it.
How is having the weakest of defense be the standard? What can be anymore standard then "base amount"? Here's the thing that I don't think people seem to get: defense is never supposed to win. You are never supposed to be able to survive at the end of everything, so in the war of attrition between the attack and defense, attack wins.
So when defense starts to win an absolute war of attrition, such as in the Cinderhulk era in season 5 (and the juggernauts to a lesser extent), either attack needs to be stronger, or defense made weaker.
-_-
The simplest way to ensure that defense is never winning the war of attrition is to gage it based on a full damage build. If a full damage build isn't beating defense, something's wrong. Likewise, if a not-full damage build is beating defense at the same efficiency, then again something is wrong.
WoonStruck9 votesCurrently its not merely offense beating defense. It is not siege weapons trying to breach a castle's walls.
Currently, full damage builds are the equivalent of Hernando Cortes using guns against the Aztecs.
There's no way to stand up to it with the current means of defense.
Yes, offense should win, and it always has.
Tanks have never been in this poor of a survivability state, though.
Even if ADCs sacrificed 2 item slots for defenses, they'd still melt tanks. As long as they have IE, zeal item, LW item, they will kill full build tanks with ease still. The last two items are really over the top, and is specifically why tanks feel like shit compared to other seasons.
Tank itemization sucks. New ADC itemization is over-loaded. Masteries don't help.
VexingRaven6 votesCurrently its not merely offense beating defense. It is not siege weapons trying to breach a castle's walls.
Currently, full damage builds are the equivalent of Hernando Cortes using guns against the Aztecs.
There's no way to stand up to it with the current means of defense.
Yes, offense should win, and it always has.
Tanks have never been in this poor of a survivability state, though.
Even if ADCs sacrificed 2 item slots for defenses, they'd still melt tanks. As long as they have IE, zeal item, LW item, they will kill full build tanks with ease still. The last two items are really over the top, and is specifically why tanks feel like shit compared to other seasons.
Tank itemization sucks. New ADC itemization is over-loaded. Masteries don't help.
I am so glad to see this finally being said. I've been saying since the day they announced the ADC rework that ADCs were toxic and broken, and it's fallen on deaf and/or hostile ears.
SlntReaper1 votesWhere do assassins fall in this scale? as glass cannons or as tankier people? Also, I feel like assassin burst was nerfed because ADC's were being deleted. So they made the ADC's out lifesteal the assassins.
WoonStruck3 votesAssassins are supposed to function as glass cannons, but a large number of those included in the rework are basically turning into fighters.
Assassins were the only glass cannons Riot didn't constantly nerf something** else **over, but they threatened mages/ADCs, so apparently they had to go. :/
SlntReaper1 votesfeelsbadman
Drahcir1 votesI'm upset that any time something can reliably kill a glass cannon (who should be easy to reliably kill without outside influence), Riot nerfs it, _rather than glass cannons actually needing to deviate a tiny bit from damage. _
that could be the original post and you would be fine.
WoonStruck1 votesYeah, but the boards want drama.
Wouldn't get the attention that's needed on the subject here if I sounded reasonable now, would I?
President Swa1n1 votesWait what? I always thought there was general consensus about how glass cannon builds are terrible and hybrid offense/defense items are unconditionally better.
WoonStruck1 votesUntil Riot nerfs them for being successful vs glass cannons. This happens at least once a season because apparently something punishing glass cannon builds is 'unhealthy'.
Tik1152 votesRiots logic is that it isn't fun being dead and since glass cannons can die quickly they don't want them to not have fun so they nerf anything which kills them quickly
going by that logic when tanks get deleted faster then ADCs we can probs see glass cannons get nerfed so...round about 20 years from now
Ralanr2 votesRiots logic is that it isn't fun being dead and since glass cannons can die quickly they don't want them to not have fun so they nerf anything which kills them quickly
going by that logic when tanks get deleted faster then ADCs we can probs see glass cannons get nerfed so...round about 20 years from now
Because having to build one or two defensive items is a burden for melee only apparently.
Tik1152 votesYeah apparently
But then again these are the same people who allowed Kalista to exist and not be nerfed for months
Lovelle2 votesRiots logic is that it isn't fun being dead and since glass cannons can die quickly they don't want them to not have fun so they nerf anything which kills them quickly
going by that logic when tanks get deleted faster then ADCs we can probs see glass cannons get nerfed so...round about 20 years from now
To be honest, at the current rate, I'm not sure this game is going to last even 2 more years.
Zelorxon2 votesWell, you casuals today are really going too far... DPS
Damage Per Second
If you can't comprehend that a team needs to put their strenghts together in order to nullify their weaknesses i suggest going back to dr.who and big bang theory.
Some are tanks, some are utility, some are damage, some are hybrids, put them together and you win, put them aside, and in the right occasion they lose.
I was for once hoping for someone to address the real problem: silvers at the balancing team, but no, let everybody know what we are.
WoonStruck12 votesIts not damage per second like it was in seasons 1-5.
Its burst per second now. If you took the real values that ADCs dealt between then and now, you'd find its much higher now, as well as full build for ADCs being much cheaper.
On top of that, far better shred options to use on tanks that only further exacerbate the issue.
For fucks' sake: low-tier damage masteries this season would have been the caps of the damage tree in previous seasons.
You're trying to call a bunch of people that realize this problem and have been playing since beta 'casuals'. A 6+ year commitment to a game is anything but 'casual'.
FreshAsFebreze2 votesGaren is a prime example. In past seasons, he could build full tank and be an annoyance. Now his main builds have to include black cleaver and some other damage item. This season, he was basically penalized for being a champ that is meant to be a tank and now he cant break 50% for the life of him.
TyroneWatermelon2 votesMarksmen in leaguebwr just a point and click adventure.
Grimspeake1 votesDamn and i was gonna say elo
Big Lincoln1 votespenetration stats existing on items
PhDs Nuts1 votesHe thinks champions should be able to build both damage and defense in order to kill champions that build just damage.
But this already happens.
The problem was champions able to rely on their kit to abuse tank/hybrid builds to become way stronger than intended.
WoonStruck4 votesWhich gets itemization nerfed, rather than said champion, which makes tanks weaker overall, which makes other tanky damage builds suffer, lowering diversity, and encouraging less and less need for survivability since damage just works better.
There's a reason tanks in professional just build a shit-ton of HP and act as engage bots, barring current OPs. Nothing else works. There's no point in them building much else if it doesn't provide HP because you simply will not make good use of it in fights.
LU Vanilla Rice 1 votesAs a Zed main, I don't think I've seen a problem in terms of reliable damage not coming from APCs and ADCs.
MunchCrunchLunch1 votesthe game is currently. and has always been. a class based game because of this. a support. a healer. magic damage dealer. a long range marskman. and a tank. or two tanks instead of a healer or an enchanter that helps the adc.
even tho you'd think league is hero based. its not unfortunately. it would be a better game if what a champion did in a game depended on their kit. and not their role. which sucks.
also. you can go 6 damage items on adcs and apcs. just grab the zeal items and triforce and you get as much ms as from boots. or get two ludens. and your above 400 ms on mages. i did it yesterday on ziggs and prob won because of it as it gave me that extra damage
MetalGearTeemu4 voteshow to spot someone who started playing after season 2.
MunchCrunchLunch2 votesi started playing in season 5 actually. but i i've researched the game before and i've seen many threads complaining about how the game prioritizes ad carries. what other role is mandatory? it just doesn't happen magically. it does for reasons
MetalGearTeemu2 votesYou haven't even posted on the old forums most likely, and your statement reflects that.
Saianna1 votesRiot wanting APCs and ADCs to go 5 damage items.
Wrong.
Riot wanting ADCs to go 5 damage items.
Cause APCs build ROA/Rylais ASAP as it's META anyways.
WoonStruck3 votesRylai's is an overloaded damage item this season that offers high damage, high utility, and high survivability.
Try again.
RoA offers significant damage and survivability, as well as a mana option. It is in no way meta. Its a situational buy depending on the champ. Most champs would much rather grab Morello's and skip RoA entirely.
Whether or not you think its a damage item...RoA is actually a damage item. Just like Seraph's is, despite their build-paths delaying said damage.
Saianna1 votesbuilding HP on mages is meta. Just as you said, both Rylai and ROA do have nice HP stat.
So even though they build 5 AP items, they still end up with some survivability.
While ADCs scream to nerf assassins cause "IT IS UNFAIR FOR ASSASSIN TO BURST GLASS CANNON!11111" (and thus we get this joke-of-a-reworks for assassins)
In other words, you totally missed my point. But I don't care.
WoonStruck1 votesYou do realize that Riot's planning on nerfing average mage tankiness thoughout a game, right?
Or at the very least make them give up significant damage for it.
Saianna1 votesI though we are speaking of what is now.
Not that I disagree with those changes. Still mage itemization variety sucks imo and those changes will hurt mages alot.
I am Pacman1 votesDid you miss the last time glass cannons started switching out 1-2 items to build some defense? It was fucking horrible and no one could kill them. Defense should always lose to offence. If simply outliving your opponent is all you needed to do to win we would be back in the cinderhulk tank meta.
Response to Votable Jester:
Malphite and vi by themselves arent going to do shit unless fed. The counter to malphite and vi ulti is not to stop them its to stop the rest of their team from following up. Plenty of supports can easily do this with ulti cds comparable to their ultis. Janna (tornado as well as ulti), Nami, Braum, alistar, bard. Thats not even counting the rest of the roles. Any control mage can stall the enemy team till the knockup ends.
Olaf is slightly different and requires a tad more coordination. You have to have max 1-2 champs delay his team and at the same time burst him into oblivion for losing his resitances.
Lovelle1 votesThere are too many offensive/defensive items in the game right now. Purely offensive champs like ADCs and assassins benefit from them more than bruisers do, who often just want pure tank items for defense. ADCs (in particular) no longer have to choose between increasing their damage and survivability, while every class other than mages does. Itemization is actually balanced for everyone except the above two classes, which leads to the other classes feeling like their scaling is lackluster.
Should have its AD lowered significantly and possibly changed to have increased AD based on %maximum hp missing or something. Then it would be a real bruiser item.
Should be removed.
Should have its recipe changed back to 
+ 
and its AD lowered.
The other issue is that the offensive masteries far outscale the defensive ones for reasons that escape me. At the very least, the both of them should be equal, so there's a lot of bias in favor of offensive scaling right now.
