Wow J4 got nerfed before Lee Sin

IsIsGankedParis·Feb 18, 2015·113 votes·7,054 views

Why am I not shocked?

129 Comments

Jaygo41Feb 18, 201535 votes

The fact that people still think that Jarvan is stronger than Vi is straight up comical.... Vi already wins more games than he does and has point and click CC. AND she does more damage

the one edge Jarvan had on vi has been erased, and that was his tankiness.... but why buff other junglers when you can nerf a champion who was magically made #1 by a shitty jungle environment?

The jarvan that was winning 49% of his games not long ago is the same jarvan that wins 53% of his games now. and why was that? the jungle environment around him wasn't geared toward him. and when it is, he suddenly gets permabanned and now people whine about him. next it's vi, and you can quote me on that

Soul Sama GodFeb 18, 20154 votes

Lmfao. League of Legends gospel right here.

StraleyFeb 18, 201519 votes

Yeah ridiculous how he is magically considered OP now. Last season I got a lot of "wtf why u play j4 noob?" Latest change to him was the cost of his w and that was for top lane Jarvin. Don't see how that made him OP.

DeathByWeedFeb 19, 20151 votes

I agree why would nerf him he is already hard to play and overpowered by most junglers and top champs.

Acidic PuddleFeb 19, 20151 votes

I think it was the changes to the jungle and not so much to him.

straight4freeFeb 19, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The fact that people still think that Jarvan is stronger than Vi is straight up comical.... Vi already wins more games than he does and has point and click CC. AND she does more damage

the one edge Jarvan had on vi has been erased, and that was his tankiness.... but why buff other junglers when you can nerf a champion who was magically made #1 by a shitty jungle environment?

The jarvan that was winning 49% of his games not long ago is the same jarvan that wins 53% of his games now. and why was that? the jungle environment around him wasn't geared toward him. and when it is, he suddenly gets permabanned and now people whine about him. next it's vi, and you can quote me on that

I think Riot intended to nerf junglers across the board with the new jungle, but it didn't work as planned because certain junglers were able to play in essentially the same way in the new jungle.

They just need to shave off the outliers.

vIbvdOwbkoFeb 18, 201534 votes

Because Jarvan IV is irrefutably the number one jungler in the game?

When Jarvan is a strong pick, he becomes very oppressive. Some champions might be strong, but when J4 is strong, he is crazy strong and hard to deal with.

I don't want to downplay Lee Sin's power as a champion, but he's not really the greatest right now. The reason for this is because nobody can play Lee Sin like a robot and use him to his full potential.

Why pick Lee Sin when most players including professionals can just pick J4 and accomplish more with the same level of skill? Anyone can pick up J4, Vi, and Pantheon and excel at them without much trouble. These champions just require a bit of jungle knowledge and you're good to go. Champions like Lee Sin require a considerable amount of mechanical ability to compete at higher levels of play.

The previous statements did not hold much truth for many years, but the constant nerfs have taken their toll on Lee Sin, and the new jungle hasn't really helped him either.

Hard PenetratorFeb 18, 201540 votes

Don't paint Lee like some wussy ass bottom bitch. Lee was top tier Jungler (and even strong top for more than a 2 years) since release, show me any other champion that done that.

There were no times that ppl said. "Don't pick Lee, he is thrash now." Guess what, every other champ in the game older than 5 months had this experience but not Lee.

I don't care if Jarvan gets nerfed as long as I see some OTHER F JUNGLERS THAN LEE in this game.

And I would gladly see some Thresh nerfs aside of others.

killd0zerFeb 18, 20157 votes

Lee was top tier Jungler (and even strong top for more than a 2 years) since release

Actually he was SO weak on release he need a hotfix. they literally hotfix buffed him.

Riven too

Mitch3llFeb 18, 20154 votes

That's not true for Lee and neither for Riven. The only champion in the game who was released as absolute trash was Yorick, and they way over buffed him the next patch to where they hotfixed him within a few days to the balanced level he's been sitting at forever.

BurungeruFeb 18, 20151 votes

That guy was right though, Lee Sin had to get buffed really fast because his release was considered to be near the very top of weak releases.

Mitch3llFeb 18, 20151 votes

He was not weak on release. He got that buff because people didn't know how to use him. He was OP as hell.

To put it in simple terms: Would you rather have release Lee Sin for you to play as or current Lee Sin for you to play as?

Release Lee Sin had at LEAST double if not triple the power current Lee Sin has, and everyone thinks current Lee Sin is still OP so that's saying something major about his release state.

killd0zerFeb 19, 20151 votes

Sonic Wave/Resonating Strike AD ratio increase to 1.0 from 0.8 Tempest/Cripple AD ratio increased to 1.0 from 0.6 Dragon's Rage AD ratio increased to 2.0 from 1.5 Flurry's Energy restoration increased to 15 from 10.

Those are some pretty hefty buffs mang.

BurungeruFeb 20, 20151 votes

Yeah, are you sure you're not mixing up hotfixed Lee Sin with released Lee Sin? On top of those ratio buffs mentioned by Killdozer (of which he still has most) they buffed him several times after that. Like, reducing energy costs even further after they increased the energy regen on his passive, plus a bit of bug fixes that added a bit of power. So yeah, people didn't know how to play him at first, but since people only started learning how to play him primarily AFTER the hotfix, there's not much room to argue how OP as hell he was. There wasn't enough time for people to learn him before he got those massive ratio buffs, energy regen buffs, and energy cost nerfs for him.

Like, how can you argue someone was OP as hell while at the same time stating at the time no one knew how to play him? If no one knew how to play him, was he really OP as hell? You're arguing that because people learned to play him after the hotfix which buffed him considerably that he was OP before it? That's not that great of an argument, because there's no way to say it wasn't just the buffs that might have gave him OP status. He definitely had a lot of power people didn't realize until later, but I don't think there's enough of it to argue he's stronger pre-hotfix than he is now.

killd0zerFeb 19, 20151 votes

http://forums.na.leagueoflegends.com/board/showthread.php?p=7688261

He was hotfixed

Hard PenetratorFeb 18, 201511 votes

7 days? This is your argument or you just playing with me.

You are right, Lee was weak for 7 days.

7 fucking days out of 4 years.

It is even funnier now. Like he took one week off to because he knew he won't get any vacation for a Loooooooooooooooooooooooooooong time.

NarasimhaFeb 18, 201511 votes

There were no times that ppl said. "Don't pick Lee, he is thrash now.

You're right here. But there are plenty of times when people have said "Don't pick Lee, you're probably trash with him."

I have yet to see anyone say that about J4.

WydiwygFeb 18, 201510 votes

Well..there is a reason why "I'm Jarvan, I'm helping!" is a saying. J4 may be easier to play than Lee is, but I've seen quite a number of misplays with him from bronze to challenger. Worst thing you can do with Lee is miss your skillshots and look noobish. A bad cataclysm on the other hand can singlehandedly turn a fight around - even in favour of the enemy team.

SammystormFeb 18, 20152 votes

Lee wasn't particularly relevant in season 2. He didn't really fit in top lane and he was out cleared by everyone that was a competitive pick. He wasn't bad either just not played because he couldn't do what junglers were suppose to do at the time.

Hard PenetratorFeb 18, 20153 votes

I would say half a season. LoL community wasn't as quick to copy pros as it is right now. Correct me if Im wrong but both Insec and Diamondprox have used Lee in s2 and commentators wet their pants every time either of them picked Blind Monk.

SammystormFeb 19, 20151 votes

regardless of how close the community followed competitive play. 2 junglers out of everyone playing competitive isn't really dominant in any sense of the word. There was a lot of stuff going on in season 2 that made lee unpopular but his prominence really started in season 3. Also he isn't nearly as competitive this season as he was the last 2. The jungle changes really hurt his ability to be competitive. He is still a good champ but not a must pick like he was last season.

Hard PenetratorFeb 19, 20151 votes

This is true. Altough as you mentioned he wasn't weak and ppl who knew that he was op used him. LoL community opened their eyes after hydra and sightstone.

He still is competitive pick but mostly because how all pro players got used to play with him, he is well rounded and solid champion. Only thing that kept Lee behind was release of Rek'sai that had "few" issues in terms of balance.

I think lee is a good spot, but league isn't. Fun and mobile champions overtaken the game and way to many designs are too behind to contest. I love versatile champion that provide many options with their gameplay. But for new players lol feels like a card game with expansion where all new cards are just a bit better in every aspect. Lee kit didn't get old or weak at all. Thats why ppl hate him.

I don't even know if nerfing Lee will change anything, it feels like its too little too late.

DeathByWeedFeb 19, 20151 votes

I think a simple nerf of his q would do that's it a slight nerf on his second q but I say there are other champions which need nerfs more like Katarina I lover her abilities but she does too much dam damage.

Ser GarlandFeb 18, 201519 votes

Zed Goood.. less armor means another champion I can all in early game. GJ Lee.

LeeSin No problem. Wait, what if they take him top?

Riven all bases covered.

Ariel the CruelFeb 18, 20157 votes

Jinx Hey flag-guy! We always have open spots down here in bot lane. Bring your boot shining kit.

DrCyanideFeb 18, 201516 votes

I think Riot wants everyone to main Lee Sin as their jungler of choice. It's the only logical conclusion at this point.

KeyoshiFeb 18, 201511 votes

That armor nerf won't do anything to his damage, relax.

KilaneFeb 18, 201510 votes

When I say Vi is one of the top 3 strongest junglers in something like Nid QQ thread, I got thumbs down by tons of noobs.

But oh well, this game is doomed by retards.

Oopsie BearFeb 18, 20157 votes

Where have you been? this seriously would have been a decent post 3 months ago... J4 has been by far the top choice since rek'sais nerf, and lee sin has been tuned down a couple times recently which i partly why j4 has become the titan that he is...

MajorPain9Feb 18, 20153 votes

I am going to need a source for any type of Lee sin changes.

EconomiczFeb 18, 20156 votes

Alright, I'm done defending riot. The 22 armor was an aoe aura, this is a huge nerf.

futuresight23Feb 18, 201514 votes

{quoted}

Alright, I'm done defending riot. The 22 armor was an aoe aura, this is a huge nerf.

The armor aura was taken away in Season 3 a long time ago. This is just a nerf to Jarvan's personal armor.

AxlStreamFeb 18, 20155 votes

Thing is, J4 didn't get actual changes for season 5. Last buff he had was a slight increase to his shield. It's just every other jungler that gets dumpstered because of their first clear. J4 always could and still does what he was meant for since the end of Season 4 when he went crazy on world finals.

Autrah FangFeb 18, 20154 votes

doesn't this change also hurt top jarvan quite a bit? i mean, whenever i fought a riven for example when i played jarvan top i would max his flag first for the added armor, and now they're removing that.... i guess i'll just add jarvan to my "champions i never use" list

Hard PenetratorFeb 18, 20153 votes

Wow, RIven will stomp me even harder top. I want to see some nerfs for tanky supports.

Ariel the CruelFeb 18, 20156 votes

Take them to a solo lane. That'll get them nerfed pretty fast.

NarogFeb 18, 20153 votes

riot needs to get the jungle changes right , so far new jungle has done nothing more than making less junglers viable and they are balancing champions around this new jungle that has done nothing for the game.

SammystormFeb 19, 20152 votes

A relevant statistic: Lee is currently the 4th highest pick/ban jungler in the NA lcs with 12 picks and 4 bans. J4 is number 1 with 27 picks 9 bans. Rek'sai is 2nd with 13 picks 13 bans. Vi is 3rd with 1 ban and 17 picks.

In the NA LCS Lee has a 40% pick/ban rate and a 50% and a kda of 2.51

Source: http://lol.gamepedia.com/2015_NA_LCS_Spring/Scoreboards/Round_Robin/Overview

In the EU LCS is the 3rd most popular jungler with 10 bans 11 picks. The top 2 remain the same J4 is number one with 11 bans and 25 picks. Rek'sai is 2nd with 18 bans 13 picks. ALthough it is important to note that rengar is tied with lee sin at 11 picks but only has 5 bans.

In the EU LCS Lee has a pick/ban rate percentage of 52.5% but only has a win percentage of 27.3% and a kda of 2.89

Source: http://lol.gamepedia.com/2015_EU_LCS_Spring/Scoreboards/Round_Robin/Overview

The conclusion that can be made is that in the NA LCS Lee Sin is Moderately popular but has a good record of winning games. On the other hand we can look at the EU LCS where Lee is very popular but is not very successful at winning games.

Now I understand that the LCS is different then solo queue, however this shows us that Lee isn't nearly as dominant as people claim him to be. He isn't the #1 jungler. The best jungler right now is Jarvan followed closely by Rek'Sai. Lee is in the top 5 but he isn't stifling the jungle or crowding out other choices. He is popular in solo queue yes but solo queue isn't indicative of how the game should be played to have the most effective impact.

Jungle Lux GodFeb 19, 20152 votes

If you have been watching the LCS, you would know exactly why.

In NA, J4 is the most picked champ in the entire split so far. Compared to Lee Sin, he has over twice the picks and twice the bans that Lee Sin has.

In EU Jarvan is the second most picked champ after Graves. While Lee Sin has more bans than Jarvan, Jarvan has over twice the pick rate and has a significantly higher win rate than Lee Sin.

And of course Riot would cater to the competitive scene.

KaisadiIIaFeb 19, 20151 votes

LCS win rate means nothing.

Killer X 12Feb 19, 20151 votes

If it did then Liss would need a nerf. She was like 11-0 until TSM beat CLG this past weekend.

KaisadiIIaFeb 19, 20151 votes

Meanwhile Liss in EU LCS has ~50% win rate. That's why I said that LCS win rate means nothing. Lissandra is just at the top of NA LCS current meta. Just let the meta evolve its own way and they will stop playing Liss, and Jarvan, eventually.

Killer X 12Feb 19, 20151 votes

Not sure if you picked up on it, but i was agreeing with you.

KaisadiIIaFeb 19, 20151 votes

I knew, I was just stating a fact.

Jungle Lux GodFeb 20, 20151 votes

Which completely undermines what I said about pick/ban rate. Pros pick what is most reliable, and Jarvan seems to be the most reliable jungler at the moment.

Also, saying that Lee Sin has almost a 20% lower win rate than Jarvan in the EU LCS is actually pretty significant in the highest levels of play.

1999 01 17Feb 18, 20151 votes

it says it gives allies his passive bonuses from E, which are armor and AS. that's why it's so easy to rack up assists on jarven

futuresight23Feb 18, 20156 votes

{quoted}

it says it gives allies his passive bonuses from E, which are armor and AS. that's why it's so easy to rack up assists on jarven

Demacian Standard

Cost: 55 Mana Range: 800

Jarvan IV carries the pride of Demacia, passively granting him bonus Attack Speed and Armor. Activating Demacian Standard allows Jarvan IV to place a Demacian flag that deals magic damage on impact and grants Attack Speed to nearby allied champions.

Passive: Gains 10/13/16/19/22% Attack Speed and 10/13/16/19/22 Armor. Active: Throws a Demacian Standard to a nearby area dealing 60/105/150/195/240 (+80% Ability Power) magic damage to enemies. The Standard lasts for 8 seconds and grants surrounding allied champions 10/13/16/19/22% Attack Speed.

It doesn't give an armor aura currently. It used to but it was taken off in Season 3.

Sketchy MokujinFeb 18, 20151 votes

Personally, I have never seen Lee Sin as OP. I'd see J4 more OP 1st because of in order listed

His cc is higher than Lee Sin's
His teamfights are generally better in the sense he's a better tank
His ult is better than Lee's when it comes to "This won't screw your team"
Cataclysm can remove multiple threats for fights for the duration (namely champs with no wall hopping [Most mages])
Lee has a MUCH higher play cap. He's a great champion, but he's much harder to play which in turn makes J4 stronger player wise. In the end it's up to the player to maximize a champion's potential, and even further you require the know-how to do what must be done to work well with your current team.

The Real GrimlaiFeb 18, 20153 votes

I disagree with number 3. The phrase "I'm Jarvan. I'm Helping." comes to mind when I think about J4's ult. Think about it; the foe you've hit can escape, or, even worse, your teammates can't. With Lee, his ult can knock up foes that he hits with the first target, meaning that an AoE comp can still work if Lee hits his R right WITHOUT as much risk of trapping your allies in danger. Plus, the Lee Ult provides some decent counter engage, while Jarvan and his target have to stick around in one spot in order for the ult to really do a "counter engage" act. And as I've mentioned earlier, the foe could escape the J4 Ult, but not the Lee Sin ult.

But yes, I totally agree with everything else.

Sketchy MokujinFeb 18, 20152 votes

It was more of a situational concern. It really depends on the positioning for both Lee and J4. Of course we both know that your team will complain more if Lee kicked someone away while trying to execute them rather than J4 locking them in. This is just my opinion, but I think there is actually more synergy with J4 ult.