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Unpopular Opinion --> You can't cross compare AD vs AP resistances, so stop it already.

Best Ekko NA··26 votes·8,101 views

Let me explain this, for those of you who are a bit slow in the head.

You simply cannot compare these two items to one another:

|item 3156 | and |item 3157|

To begin, one of these items is designed to help against Magic Damage, and the other is designed to aid against Physical Damage.

There are MANY options in the game for both armor and magic resist. For example we have items such as these:

|item 3001 | item 3194 | item 3065 | item 3190 | item 3231 | item 3102 | item 3512 | and obviously | item 3163|

To put this into perspective, there are two Magic Resist items for Ability Power, and two for Attack Damage.

Magic Damage: |item 3001| item 3102|

Physical Damage: |item 3156| item 3139|

In this regard, both damage dealers are on near equal footing when it comes to available defenses for magic resistance. If you are still worried about it, there's still a few other items available for both sides that you could be building from the list without having to worry about building Attack Damage that you do not want or need.

Now, let's look at the flip side. Here are some items which are designed with armor:

|item 3025 | item 3190 |item 3056 |item 3143 |item 3800 |item 3068 |item 3075 |item 3306 | item 3512 | item 3026| and once more, obviously: |item 3157 |

For Magic Damage champions, this item is available: |item 3157 |

For Physical Damage champions, there is: |item 3026|

If either side is still worried about it, there are a decent list of Armor items which are neutral and can be shared between both Attack Damage and Magical Damage champions.

So, the next time you want to complain about (insert bias'd champion pool here) vs (insert bias'd champion pool here), take a second to remember that game balance goes far beyond the short sighted reasoning and twisted logic you are using to support your desires.

Both Magic Damage champions and Physical Damage champions have two items for Magic Resist, and also one item for Armor.

They are equal.

59 Comments

Zeromatsu12 votes

item 3001 doesn't even count as mage item lol, put it together with all the other tank items you listed.

Fízz v29 votes

but item 3157 sucks unless you use the active well and item 3001 is a tank item

ad > ap :]

Best Ekko NA4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fízz v2,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TlzEjE8o,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-10-03T17:41:09.153+0000)

but item 3157 sucks unless you use the active well and item 3001 is a tank item

ad > ap :]

Tank item? It scales your damage, the more damage you build the more amplification you get from it.

I fail to understand your logic, it increases your damage 15%, how does it become a Tank item?

If you start early game with 30 AP and deal 150 damage with your ability then it gives you another 22.5 damage. By late game you have 800 AP and deal 600 damage with your ability, it's now increasing your damage another 90 damage.

To me, that doesn't look like a tank item.

Fízz v26 votes

Its not a damage item when not a single damage champ builds it ever except when some melees like kassadin abused it

Best Ekko NA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Fízz v2,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TlzEjE8o,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2018-10-03T17:48:11.923+0000)

Its not a damage item when not a single damage champ builds it ever except when some melees like kassadin abused it

No one builds this either: | item 2065|

Does that make it a Tank item too? It has health and no one builds it.

Fízz v25 votes

its kinda a tank item yeah, but it also gives ap, so.. thats probably why almost no one builds it. Minus vlad sometimes using it for his passive and move speed

Herlgar3 votes

The way I see it the stats it gives are so low it's rarely worth picking up over item 3905 for the AP and passive MS + slow which in many cases can be as useful as the speed boost. If you need HP there are better choices as well.

Flashes1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rainbow Slayer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TlzEjE8o,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-03T17:49:29.855+0000)

No one builds this either: | item 2065|

Does that make it a Tank item too? It has health and no one builds it.

That's built on a LOT of enchanter supports to make sure they retain their relevancy.

Getting the reason Sivir is playable in a teamfight on an item with sacrificing another ability on an item is sometimes used, because no AP enchanter is going to build something like Knight's Vow.

It's primarily used on enchanter supports i believe.

THE333NAT1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Rainbow Slayer,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TlzEjE8o,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-10-03T17:49:29.855+0000)

No one builds this either: | item 2065|

Does that make it a Tank item too? It has health and no one builds it.

It's a support items for champions like Rakan, Morgana, Soraka ect

Alzon18 votes

Abyssal only amps damage within a small area, comparable to Sunfire. Not really a viable option for most mages. The exception is when they’re getting jumped on and can punish the enemy within that range, like Malzahar and Lissandra. It’s also an inefficient buy versus physical damage.

The best users of Abyssal Mask are tanks who can sit on the enemy while allied mages whale on them. As you said, that can easily add up to hundreds of points of damage very quickly.

Best Ekko NA2 votes

{quoted}

Abyssal only amps damage within a small area, comparable to Sunfire. Not really a viable option for most mages. The exception is when they’re getting jumped on and can punish the enemy within that range, like Malzahar and Lissandra. It’s also an inefficient buy versus physical damage.

The best users of Abyssal Mask are tanks who can sit on the enemy while allied mages whale on them. As you said, that can easily add up to hundreds of points of damage very quickly.

Not every AD damage item is designed for every AD scaling champion, and not every AP damage item is designed for every AP scaling champion.

Example? Over half the pool of available AD scaling champions can't make use of this item: |item 3053|

That's part of the reason why I don't hesitate to say, it's a neutral item. Very few champions besides maybe Aatrox, Garen, Riven, and Graves, have abilities that actually scale total AD. Nearly every AD champion's abilities scale Bonus Attack Damage, meaning they get nothing besides the auto attack damage out of this item. Because of this, Sterak's is just as good on an AP champion most of the time, as it is on an AD champion - despite that it was designed for AD champions.

In the case of Abyssal, it has two passive that most mages can utilize. Damage Amp and sustain through health regen and mana regen. Like Sterak's, the champion pool it's intended for doesn't always synergize well, but that doesn't mean it's not an item designed with Magic Damage dealing champions in mind.

ZackTheWaffleMan6 votes

Sterak's doesn't increase base AD, it increases bonus AD now

Hexmelt 2 votes

This. x 1000000 What is OP smoking.

FilDaFunk3 votes

Abyssal Mask has very small range; specifically, it has been lowered so that mages cannot use the passive. Then, apart from mana, there are no benefits for a mage. Abyssal mask is a tank item that is designed to aid the team. Further such examples are item 3190 item 3143 item 3110 item 3109

saltran5 votes

item 3157 sucks unless you use the active well

Well, then use the active well.

Zhonyas has a higher skill floor than most items but also a higher skill ceiling.

Fízz v21 votes

I didnt mean using the active well as player, but using the active well as champ like Fizz or TF

Bârd3 votes

Then you're incorrect.

If you needed a specific interaction with stasis for it to be a strong active, we wouldn't have seen entire teams running "Perfect Timing" at the start of the season.

It's a strong active in general.

Fízz v22 votes

free zhonyas use for early plays =/= spending almost 3k gold on shit stats + the active every 2 minutes tho

Lets have shrex7 votes

You didn't mention that AD champions all have access to some form of sustained damage thanks to their auto-attacks, while AP champions can only rely on their spells. Imagine if Zed had to rely on his skills only after his R. AD > AP, MR > Armor

There are only a few mages that can deal sustained damage (Azir Cassiopeia Teemo), so if AP champions miss their skills and wait for cooldowns, or get their bursts delayed because of MR, it's a huge disadvantage compared to an AD champion who can miss (or gets his burst delayed because of armor) because he can still rely on his AA if his skills are on cooldown

Best Ekko NA1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lets have shrex,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TlzEjE8o,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2018-10-03T18:09:57.538+0000)

You didn't mention that AD champions all have access to some form of sustained damage thanks to their auto-attacks, while AP champions can only rely on their spells. Imagine if Zed had to rely on his skills only after his R. AD > AP, MR > Armor

There are only a few mages that can deal sustained damage (Azir Cassiopeia Teemo), so if AP champions miss their skills and wait for cooldowns, or get their bursts delayed because of MR, it's a huge disadvantage compared to an AD champion who can miss (or gets his burst delayed because of armor) because he can still rely on his AA if his skills are on cooldown

We aren't talking about champions, we are talking about comparing items. Champions are all designed to do different things. Some are designed to crowd control, others burst, some tank, some deal constant damage... That has nothing to do with people trying to compare an Armor item with an item that is supposed to help against Magic Damage.

saltran1 votes

Imagine if Zed had to rely on his skills only after his R

Then Zed would have way higher dmg on his skills to not be a useless champ as how he would if you remove his aa dmg without giving anything on compensation.

Pika Fox5 votes

And literally all of them are ranged, and their spells, for the most part, also all outrange AD champs. If we're just comparing champs, AP champs get many advantages as well.

Nyarlathοtep5 votes

Abyssal mask an ap item? Oh boi i didnt knew mages should hug their enemies in order to use it.

Infernape4 votes

For Physical Damage champions, there is nothing. This is the only item in the game with Armor and any type of damage on it.

Er Guardian Angel?

Best Ekko NA1 votes

{quoted}

This is the only item in the game with Armor and any type of damage on it.

Er Guardian Angel?

Okay you got me, I somehow missed that one.

[zombie-brand-facepalm]

Morgana Ultima4 votes

Mmmmkay op. Now lets make a list of the items with lethality/armor pen and the items with magic pen.

What does this list tell you?

Gesterr1 votes

I mean despite all the pen options for AD there are, some of them stack inefficiently together or don't give useful stats that any AD champ can use. Magic pen can allow you to do actual true damage to certain enemies and though the options are fewer they're more stackable to the point where every AP champion can and does stack them easily and efficiently. It's literally apples to oranges comparison.

MadNoff3 votes

There are a few gems on the boards. But most people here couldn't solve a quadratic equation far less complex regression programming. Yet they profess themselves greater than Riot's balance team.

There is no method to their madness. They post a series of hypotheses which sometimes conflict with each other and leave it at that. No proof. No explanation. Just a paragraph ranting about why "X didnt needs to be nerfed" based their extensive mathematical and statistical background and liberal access to riots data.

Lunar ArcS3 votes

[deleted]

Best Ekko NA3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lunar ArcS,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TlzEjE8o,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2018-10-03T19:17:40.591+0000)

Ah yes, a silver 3 player is going to educate me on the game! Wow!

The thing you aren't understanding here, is an ad champion goes back to buy hexdrinker, they are never gimped in the way mages are when mages buy seekers. Mages go oom, zed yasuo and irelia do not. Neither does talon. There is also a KEYSTONE dedicated to stopping magc damage( It scales btw) This also does not apply to mages versus ad champions.

Your post has a lot of flaws and you are just simply wrong. Sorry~ [sg-ahri-2]

Talon doesn't run out of mana, are you nuts?

I just played a match against a Talon as Riven at mid lane and he ran out of mana before he even hit level 5. I'm not entirely sure what you are talking about, as that's just not true at all. Talon uses mana, and he does run out of mana.

Also, rank shaming a person who doesn't try to climb? You aren't really getting anywhere with that.

Lunar ArcS2 votes

You mean a mana champion ran oom against a mana less champion? WOW WHAT A SHOCK.

Not rank shaming, just pointing out your superiority complex is trash

FemalesAreLesser1 votes

i mean, the Keystone Scales horribly. and its hard for a mage to go oom when almost every mage item give a load of mana, not to mention since you can say it, ALSO has access to a keystone which gives free mana for using your spells on the enemy AND then has a great passive of 1% missing mana regen for the rest of the game, so thats neat that Yasuo, Riven, and zed cannot use. Which doesnt apply to many AD champions when fighting mages. but hey, im only gold and plat across 4 accounts, and on the daily play with players both higher and lower in Rank then me, and got almost 6K hours on a single account. But time experiance must not mean anything for dealing with the matchups in game or anything to have a basis to speak on. and you ARE commenting with a level 32 account who is Silver 4.

so your reply has a lot of flaws and you are, Not overly wrong, just strongly opinionated. and are on quite a high horse for being a seemingly lower rank.

[slayer-jinx-catface]

Twitch

Edit: But hey! This is what the boards are for, discussions! Points, and Counter-Points.

TheSingularity3 votes

The issue is AD champion then have either item 3046 or item 3812 They have far more synergy and abundant life steal compare to mages (they have gunblade which is garbo most of the time cos AOE dmg).

item 3748 item 3071 item 3053 item 3025 item 3022 which all offer a very sizable amount of health and are universally helpful as they offer flat damage. meanwhile item 3151 item 3027 item 3165 item 3116. If you already have abundant CC rylai isn't worth, Liandries requires DOT to be at all worth it and almost all of these items offer inferior defense values compared to AD counteparts

FemalesAreLesser1 votes

Lets not talk about synergy when item 3003 Scales with every other AP item you can build which gives mana. which is alot of AP items. and Death cap with gives more AP the more AP you build. so what i see there is... Buy more AP Get more AP, buy more mana, Get more AP, Get more AP get even more AP. everything scales off eachother, and inflates AP numbers far more then say AD items would give AD and synergy between themselves, and thats before even adding most Core mage items give 20% CDR ontop of 300-400+ mana, and higher flat numbers of AP then AD items give resources or Flat numbers. but hey, im not seeing every AD champion with 1K AP or never running out of mana with 40% CDR in 3 items....

TheSingularity1 votes

Because the systems behind AD and AP are entirely different.

We can compare all day in terms of damage output. They are as different as they are similar. We could adjust the entire system so everything was identical, the only difference being the damage type. While you get less AD overall, you get more resist shred, generally don't have high enough mana costs to NEED a mana item and it synergises not only with your kit but then your auto attacks. In turn you have a true damage converter in IE and a rune to boot. AP has nothing to match any of this.

Yes, we get 2 items that synergise well overall. But seraphs embrace gives a pissy 50 ability power initially , so you need a boat load of mana to make this 3000 gold item, which then must be charged even somewhat worth it. I then get 30 AP per 1000 mana. So, a 3000 gold 80 AP item...

You bring up cooldown reduction, yet most are only going to buy one of these items. Just as you don't build both a cleaver and a tri force. But on average AP champions simply have longer cooldowns. CDR being tied to these items is merely a way to gate our power so we're not obscenely OP.

Just as a stat. Even if we consider rabadons and seraphs (as shity as this item is in reality on anyone but ryze). AD has better synergy purely by it's nature. AP doesn't enhance the auto attacks of most mages. AP has zero synergy with atk speed in most cases while AD synergises with both atk speed and cdr.

FemalesAreLesser1 votes

*which also gives a shield for an active. *the fact 1 item alone can give Such an Active, 20%CDR, 50-80+AP (base mana pool), +1400 mana, and also just to tip off, 25% mana refunded ontop.

now lets look at a typical first buy for a few others (i will avoid Triforce, cause that item by itself is overtuned imo and can be build on more then just AD heavy champions)

Duskblade, pretty normal first buy for alot of assassins. 55AD, 10% CDR, Scaling Bonus damage on single auto if unseen for at least 2 seconds. (2 seconds i think) and some vision control that lasts awhile, and 13 - 21 Scaling with level Lethality. which is UP to i believe 18-20 at lvl 18 flat armor pen. and early on its like 7 armor, so about when bought for lvl 6 for this example would stop like 9 or so. the math or armor pen is stupid, blame riot for that one. Neat. or lets look at youmouuuuus, gives same ammound of AD and CDR and lethality, BUT, no bonus dmg, no vision control, and only gives some out of combat MS and an active which oly gives bonus MS (i'd say this would be the better of the two if it still gave AS with the active)

so 2 Mainly 90% bought items on assassins you'd see in the midlane fighting mages, and just the pure stats alone of the AP items gives are much higher. but i will say i should of been more fair and also added Luden's because its also a popular mage item for the bursty ones like LB and veigar, which also gives 20% CDR, loads of mana, a spell damage Steroid (which scales with AP, ouu more self scaling synergy that works with everything you buy and all of your runes) And you are saying 3K for a seraphs like itssuper overpriced for all those, when duskblade is only 100g cheaper, but gives significantly less, more so with ghostblade.

AP items are just better. if we're talking assassin to Mage, AP to AD, first and second buys for this case right here for a small example. and dont about long cooldowns when champions who you see mid who build these items like Leblanc, ryze, viegar, cass. ALL, and i mean ALL have spammable abilities on very low cooldowns. Especially when you are getting 40% by second item, maybe even sooner if boots are bought on say ryze. but i havent seen that in a long time, so safe to say second item? where most other ad champions (UNLESS they specifically relly on CDR like nasus, Renekton, Riven, Ezreal, just a few, im not sure of very many MID champions, but for sake of this, its all i got for that, but they may split with Kindlegem, warhammer, glacial shard,boots)

FemalesAreLesser1 votes

also would it be fair to add that not ALL ad champions have all thier skills scaling with AD? or dont have 4 damaging spells like alot of mages do?

like talon or zed, they sac a slot for a movement ability iffy said with zed cause it boosts what dmg you do with double casting but doesnt actually deal damage itself, talon has his walljump, riven has her E that yes scaled with AD but isnt a damaging ability

and for the sake of consistency Leblanc has 4 damaging abilities, which if used also can give 2 Dashes, WHICH also scale highly with AP and deal damage. EDIT: yes it doesnt apply to All AD champions, or ALL AP, but most mid mages have 4 damaging abilities, or 3 damaging abilities and 1 cc, viktor trap, veigar trap, for guaranteed damage, but if i put it that way you could argue zeds W-E could be guaranteed damage. but like depends on situation xD

RedCyclone2 votes

I find the issue is that an item like item 3155 is so much more useful in comparison to item 3191 One flat out stops you from dying from magic damage burst while giving innate defenses, the other just gives you defenses that needs to scale

When both items are fully built the comparison is much fairer, but that component power difference keeps me scratching my head, it basically allows you to sit on Hexdrinker while sitting on Seekers is just stupid, if the AP needs to buy the full item to get the defensive OOMF from it then the AD should too

Best Ekko NA2 votes

{quoted}

I find the issue is that an item like item 3155 is so much more useful in comparison to item 3191 One flat out stops you from dying from magic damage burst while giving innate defenses, the other just gives you defenses that needs to scale

When both items are fully built the comparison is much fairer, but that component power difference keeps me scratching my head, it basically allows you to sit on Hexdrinker while sitting on Seekers is just stupid, if the AP needs to buy the full item to get the defensive OOMF from it then the AD should too

While I'm not going to argue with your logic (a shield helping more than a few armors), I think much of the problem is the logic of players isn't keeping up with the changes in the game. Consider the following, a long time ago games were slow and generally required wise use of your gold and timing in order be as efficient as possible and win trades, lanes, and games against the other team. This led people to be very picky about the type of items they were building -- wasting anything meant that you might not actually be able to win against your enemy because every stat you gained mattered a lot.

Fast forward a ways, most players can agree that games are fast and damage is insanely high. Gold efficiency has lost most of the meaning that it used to have. League has transformed into a game about snowballing and almost completely removed the aspect of strategy and slow methodical gameplay. The problem with this is, the player base still thinks identical to the past, when things like how viable an item was mattered. This means that some items which might help them in certain situations, players aren't purchasing because they've been trained over several seasons that those items aren't viable.

It's not much different from a video that I saw Doublelift post, where he mentioned how long it took Starcraft Protoss players to find a solution to dealing with the Zerg. When you don't know the answer and it seems unfair, the most common reaction by players is to complain. The fact is however, there are a lot of options that none of the player base is trying because the meta in League has been shifting so fast and so often. The crowd of this game often doesn't help much either. Trying new things gets you flamed, and that in part is why a lot of players would rather complain than look for answers to the problem.

ValyrianBlade2 votes

They have the same number of items == equal.

I can argue that hexdrinker is busted (with or without referencing seekers). I can argue qss/mercurial is busted (with or without referencing banshees).

You're arguing the mere existence of an inferior ap itemization option makes them equal? How in the world does that work.

Hexdrinker virtually ensures an AD champion cannot be bursted by a mage in a 1v1, making him near unkillable, without sacrificing what his build needs (raw ad). Seekers only provides some armor (can easily still be killed through it) and doesn't provide what a mage wants early (Mana and CDR).

Likewise, removing cc at will is much better than absorbing the first spell to hit you. Obviously choice >>>> automatic.

And at the end of the day - you can't compare armor to MR because the damage is different - I agree. A single MR item is often enough for a tank against magic damage dealers, while 4-5 armor items still isn't enough against AD. Yet that maw gives more MR than zhonya's gives armor. So yes, they're not comparable. Armor is weaker than MR, and yet the ad itemization option gives more defense, the better build path (i.e. considerably better partial item), and more survivability in the passive.

The only reason they can't be compared is because it's so uneven...

Noor Hikari2 votes

They are not equal , to make it short Assassins can power spike with 1 item , item 3147 , and to protect themselves from some magic damage , they bought item 3155 which is less than half an item , while mages to be equal , they need Mana , while assassins don't really care They need protection like Ad got item 3155 , they need item 3157 , 1300 can't be compared to 2900 They Need Magic Pen because enemies got item 3155 , while ad got Lethality from that 1 item They need AP " like a real ap " which is item 3089 and the rest of ap items , while Ad still power spike from that 1 item So in other words , Mages need 4 completed items to be on par with ad items who can power spike with 1 item and half Don't forget that assassins can buy MR boots and mess the mages combos up.

Hexmelt 2 votes

Are you shitting me bro? Abyssal Mask is really not for champions that utilize Ability Power let's get that out of the way...you must be mistaking it for Abyssal Scepter.

SwiftKitten881 votes

~~Popular ~~ Logical opinion

when AD damage champ itemize against AP champs they have offense + defense opinions item 3139 item 3156 item 3026 item 3046 item 3812 item 3091

all of them with unique passive that can combine any which way to form any combination for any ad champ whether its ADC/ assassin, or even bruiser

when AP want to itemize against AD they have

item 3157

if u want to INCLUDE AD + HP items then AD ALSO get item 3071 item 3078 item 3022 item 3748 item 3814 item 3053

while as AP + HP we get item 3151 item 3116 item 3152 item 3030 item 2065

the DIFFERENCE is, sure we can build offensive with armor, but we can only do so with ONE item that CANNOT stack and is HEAVILY cost efficiency gated by an active which also have a massive drawback and can easily be used improperly, and doesn't stack

if u want to face us and build "offensive vs AP"

you get 6 different items all with unique passives all of which can stack and can combine and stack in any which which u want to build depending on your champ.

do AP have options vs AP... yes we do

and do AD have option vs AD... no not really every much

in fact practically NO ONE has Resistance option vs AD unless they are willing to sac a damage slot

this isn't about how AP champs get HP on their items... SO DO AD CHAMPS

AP champs don't complain about lack of options vs AP

in fact NO ONE COMPLAINS ABOUT LACK OF OPTION VS MR.. BECAUSE THERE ARE PLENTY OF FREAKING OPTIONS. and you CAN sac one damage slot because doing so will make a MASSIVE difference in the damage u take

however there is next to ZERO options to itemize defensively against AD. and you would need to sac MULTIPLE damage slot to actually make a difference with the items u do have available

and that's not even discussing how absurdly easy and how many option there are to break through armor compare to MR. that would make event hose defensive item u took negligible late game anyways

Hexmelt 1 votes

Wish there was as much variety regarding AP items.

SwiftKitten881 votes

on a side note.. the op just tried to bring up item 3056 as an item you can build as part of his argument.

if that doesn't show how deep his is digging for this, idk what does..

Whisperwind231 votes

You actually can compare them not by exact effectiveness but relative. For example what AD has for x situation vs. what AP has for x situation. Also how effective the items have at stopping x situation as well. In both Situations AD still wins because their items are more effective, require no though process(nearly all are passive), and simply have more option.

Bob the Toastr1 votes

Number of items does not affect numbers on items.

Nausicäa 1 votes

I think i got dumber just reading this.

ZaFishbone1 votes

Unpopular opinion -> YOURS

Need Gold 4 Tent1 votes

That's still 2 anti AP vs 1 anti AD, and top that with the fact that AD does more sustained damage even when on CD.

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