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My input on the new jungle

Jefftiffy··2 votes·475 views

Okay so as much as I disliked all the changes to the jungle on the PBE, I decided to try it out considering I play a lot of junglers. And man I was not wrong when I thought the new jungle would be rather unfair to the champs in it.

The base jungle item upgrade does almost nothing to alleviate your pains in the jungle. It's more of just choosing what smite you want. The hunter's machete is only useful if your champ has mana or needs slightly more mana regen to sustain. The 3rd tier items are mostly jokes except the tank one (why it gets so much compared to the others I have no clue). The one that replaces feral may actually be pretty decent but I haven't tried a champ that syncs with that yet. I can assume tanks have mana issues as well due to them being basically full casters the majority of the time.

45 AD and 10% CDR doesn't really help junglers in the slightest. I mean we need some extra sustain. Same goes with the mages. We get AP and CDR. But we still need more sustain. The biggest problem I have been having though is gold, I have managed to keep up on xp, but I am getting to 20 minutes in and don't even have enough gold to start a 3rd item. Dragon is kind of an extreme snowball buff instead of a source of gold to help the team (I mean with all the other snowball stuff we just need one that the snowballing team has complete control over too!)

I honestly feel like this is going to be league of camps this season if this goes through. I can barely jungle with most junglers now. Meaning that I have to take bare minimal jungle creeps then gank lanes immediately otherwise I don't have enough health to gank. When I am forced to choose between farming a single camp and ganking a lane with decent health there is a huge problem.

I honestly don't mind the additional effects and smite being on a longer CD, but the other changes are extremely annoying. It's basically a gank or go home jungle. Farming is near impossible unless your kite is either extremely AoE heavy with low mana costs or have very good single target kill potential. On top of this you will end up getting a lot less gold than the lanes because Riot has failed to compensate us for the loss of the gold passives (extra camps doesn't solve the problem when I have issues clearing the old ones). My farm on most champs has shot down about 50ish on average because it just takes so long and is so tedious to kill camps now. And I have even noticed this on other players. Jungle farm counts are dropping extremely hard.

The scuttle bug takes forever to kill (high health plus it runs away an extremely far distance to the point where sometimes the top and bot lanes will see you chasing it) for a very short lived situational buff that the enemy team can see. It's a visible stealth ward that's invincible =/. It really needs less health and maybe just maybe will it be worth trying to kill for the minimal gold it gives.

I am okay with Baron buff. It seems to actually be useful now and not just a stalemate if the enemy team has a tower. You have a clear seige advantage for taking control over a major buff, which I see as fit. Although the AoE damage reduction may need to be toned down. Dragon is used as a snowball the majority of the time now instead of an edge over the enemy team. Dragon is actually easier to kill if you have a team meaning that if you didn't have vision on it and bot lane and mid lane are gone, then it is going to be gone by the time you get there. Now if the team is fed you can just not even try because there is no way you are contesting it.

I honestly don't feel like the jungle is very healthy for the game. It needs a lot of work. They basically told us what to expect to possibly see in the preseason and didn't weed anything out. They just vomitted a ton of changes on us and expected us to deal with it no matter how much the changes hurt the majority of junglers.

TL DR:

  • Scuttle bug needs to be a bit easier for its reward

  • The majority of junglers need more sustain

  • The first jungle upgrades are kind of useless for jungling

  • Jungle creeps farmed are dropping hard

  • Junglers are struggling to get enough gold to help their team

  • 3rd tier jungle item upgrades are usually when the sustain issues hit the hardest

  • Now it is either power farm or super gank. You can't mix them together anymore.

  • Snowballing is now a lot worse especially with Dragon

6 Comments

Muted Summoner1 votes

Indeed the jungle is much harder for some champs especially champs without clear or sustain. SO its important to play jungle champs capable of fast clear but also able to take the damage. Skarner can take the damage but will have trouble with health sustain so you need to get imo 3.0 life steal then the lifesteal mastery. Getting lifesteal quints hurts his damage and clear but not by a whole lot, in fact it allows him to stay Healthier in the jungle. Skarner can keep farming the jungle without hardly ever needing to go back. If Skarner gets a spirit Visage he can become a beast in turns of trading attacks with champs if a banshe veil isnt needed, if you banned the right champs like Morgana or didn't pick him into way to hard cc. Fiddlesticks can easily live in the jungle but now he has mana issues more than ever. Chogath is a bit meh, nunu does his job better and can be crazy especially Pantheon. Pantheon is a great jungler.

Dragon is to snowbally if one team is already ahead they can force fights the other team can't win and snowball even further. Dragon was just gold while it was nice it was never a huge gap closer for any 1 champion it closes the global gold gap thats it. Dragon is more valuable than ever. The poachers knife isn't worth it. Okay you get a bit more gold but while take that when you can clear the jungle faster with the aoe Machete or the slow machete for who ever your ganking. Making it easier to gank. This jungle now encourages faster clears and champs capable of taking the damage/healing it or downright murdering the monsters before they can even do a considerable amount of damage.

Jenova Synthesis1 votes

(I'm not being argumentative, but) I've played matches in the new jungle that disprove just about every argument you're making.

  • The Rift Scuttler is one of the best things in the new jungle. It gives 75 seconds of vision on Baron and Dragon, as well as exp and gold. That's HUGE.

  • I could agree with the fact that the junglers that do well are the ones that have higher sustain, but I've had success with lower-sustain champs.

  • Having the new smite is a really big deal as well. The hunter's machete doesn't do a while lot for you, but the upgrades you get are really good for your champion.

  • I've seen a lot of late-game farming, instead of having 100 farm at 15 minutes, you're getting 150-250 farm at 30 minutes. You gotta focus on ganking

  • Every game I've played as jungle, I've always had enough gold to be even ahead of some of my enemies.

  • Mixing farming and ganking is actually done really well for me.

  • Snowballing is NOT an issue, and I have match history to explain why. (I'll explain if you don't want to look at it.)

Basically, the enemy team was far ahead of us, in gold and objectives. They got the first dragon somewhere close to 13 minutes, and then the second one as soon as it came up. We picked up the third, almost losing a team fight after taking it, then they got the last two.

We were losing the majority of team fights, so three times they got baron. We defended quite well and even won team fights when they had baron. Winning a team fight led us to get the final baron, then we won the next team fight and pushed to victory.

Basically, they were in our base with 3/6 dragons, and 3/3 barons and we killed them all and pushed to victory. (I was the jungler this match)

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1637771224/47583609?tab=overview

TL;DR - The new jungle is fun and interesting. I like it a lot, though there are some down sides. The jungler is not at any disadvantage, you just have to find a new play style.

Muted Summoner1 votes

(I'm not being argumentative, but) I've played matches in the new jungle that disprove just about every argument you're making.

  • The Rift Scuttler is one of the best things in the new jungle. It gives 75 seconds of vision on Baron and Dragon, as well as exp and gold. That's HUGE.

  • I could agree with the fact that the junglers that do well are the ones that have higher sustain, but I've had success with lower-sustain champs.

  • Having the new smite is a really big deal as well. The hunter's machete doesn't do a while lot for you, but the upgrades you get are really good for your champion.

  • I've seen a lot of late-game farming, instead of having 100 farm at 15 minutes, you're getting 150-250 farm at 30 minutes. You gotta focus on ganking

  • Every game I've played as jungle, I've always had enough gold to be even ahead of some of my enemies.

  • Mixing farming and ganking is actually done really well for me.

  • Snowballing is NOT an issue, and I have match history to explain why. (I'll explain if you don't want to look at it.)

Basically, the enemy team was far ahead of us, in gold and objectives. They got the first dragon somewhere close to 13 minutes, and then the second one as soon as it came up. We picked up the third, almost losing a team fight after taking it, then they got the last two.

We were losing the majority of team fights, so three times they got baron. We defended quite well and even won team fights when they had baron. Winning a team fight led us to get the final baron, then we won the next team fight and pushed to victory.

Basically, they were in our base with 3/6 dragons, and 3/3 barons and we killed them all and pushed to victory. (I was the jungler this match)

http://matchhistory.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/NA1/1637771224/47583609?tab=overview

TL;DR - The new jungle is fun and interesting. I like it a lot, though there are some down sides. The jungler is not at any disadvantage, you just have to find a new play style.

looks like they threw they had such a huge lead but you had fiddlesticks. All it takes is 1 good ult that late in the game to change everything. Not saying you played bad but certainly they were acting cocky or throwing. Leo and MF had no MR. You have a fiddle and thresh a banshe veil or ga wouldve been nice. Even a Brand I can easily see how you won that game. Dianna, MF, Leo even Vi would've been squishy with your mostly ap comp.

The crabs imo are way to easy to kill. Bring a champion with some cc and they are gone in seconds.

FyshinaTux1 votes

I played through a bit on Sejuani, started at Krugs, hit up red, then did Raptors, and I just barely cleared them... however, once I backed and got the ranger upgrade, I had no issues with sustain in the jungle, and I didn't have to get a mass quantity of pots to do it either.

I'm not saying the jungle is perfect, but you claim two main things from what I read, all junglers (save maybe Warwick...) need more sustain, and the first machete upgrades are useless. I just disproved this with one champion.

Not to say that you're not right with the majority of champions in the jungle, but you say it as though it's an absolute, that EVERY champion is garbage in the jungle (save maybe warwick.........) due to sustain issues, and that EVERY machete upgrade is gawd awful. You would be wrong.

Maybe try starting at the Krugs or Gromp (the toad thing if I got the name wrong), then moving to a buff, the extra damage from the Toad's Poison, or the stun from the krugs, really does help out with the early clear before you can back to get the upgrade you need.

Kuroi861 votes

You hit the nails but miss the point. All of these points you brought up, are on purpose.

Scuttle bug needs to be a bit easier for its reward

It's a free ward which anyone can take at any time, which can be a big help if you want Baron/Dragon control.

The majority of junglers need more sustain

This stops the "I'm gonna clear my jungle, then gank all lanes." Mentality that formed. You can either power farm, or hard gank, not both.

The first jungle upgrades are kind of useless for jungling

It has a massive effect on whether you choose a heavy farm style, a heavy gank style, or to try and counter jungle.

Jungle creeps farmed are dropping hard

This opens opportunities, especially towards mid game, for the jungle to gank some and exert some pressure.

Junglers are struggling to get enough gold to help their team

Tank junglers don't need as much gold, so this isn't a problem. Gank junglers will focus on clearing a camp for the smite buff they want, then going to gank. This is where they will have to get their gold from. It will really put a strain on gank junglers as it means you've GOT to be good at it and get kills/assists. Getting a flash is no longer enough.

3rd tier jungle item upgrades are usually when the sustain issues hit the hardest

With who? I've tried Nautilus in the new jungle and had no sustain issues in jungle, only when I went out for extended team fights.

Now it is either power farm or super gank. You can't mix them together anymore.

Which kills the 3 jungle meta and opens the door for other junglers.

Snowballing is now a lot worse especially with Dragon

The new dragon buff grants some great late game stats, if you can get to late game. For strong early champs, pushing towers and looking for an early win is still possible. 8% AD/AP is rather low early on, but can be very significant late game. What you want to avoid, is the enemy team getting the fifth dragon buff. Which is probably as strong if not stronger than Baron buff.

Jefftiffy1 votes

I honestly don't really know how you are supposed to jungle now. You need damage to kill the camps before they start to hurt you too bad, but you also need the ability to recover health or tank the creeps otherwise you can't gank. It feels near impossible to build bruiser now unless your kit has some kind of innate sustain in it that is relatively frequent. I have had issues with Lee Sin farming as well as Vi (mostly running out of mana using my old method). I don't seem able to sustain in the jungle with either without life steal anymore. At least before with Lee I could at least run around with 3/4 hp and gank, but now its a struggle to come out of the jungle with more than half.

Vi I have had issues just maintaining enough mana to gank. Xin Zhao unsurprisingly has been very effective. Nunu has been extremely strong due to his ability to abuse all the people running around weak in the new jungle. Warwick is being forced to power farm more (those ult CD nerfs in a new gank heavy meta on a champ that has it as his only gap closer) although he can sustain easily. Fiddlesticks now has issues with mana if he doesn't get blue (spirit stone let him jungle without it). Udyr... I can't even start to say just how bad he was gutted by these changes. He can't mana sustain anymore and he can't really farm. I don't know what to do with him. You gank and go oom or you farm and back extremely often because you are oom. Also junglers can no longer reliably provide vision for their team. No more jungle items that give sight and not enough gold to ward and stay alive.

And basing gold off of kill ganks is terrible. So you are saying that in order to get gold as a jungler I need to kill champs. What if they have a lane solely intent on farming until late game. No kills = well GG we lost jungler has no gold and enemy team is farmed. Especially when a good jungler gives kills to the lane to let them snowball. So you are saying I should be greedy for the sake of the team? That doesn't make any sense. I shouldn't have to suffer for my team to win.

On top of this you add in nerfed blue buff and red buff and well, IDK. How do you play a severly gimped role with less gold and health and still generate as much gold off of ganks? I mean gold doesn't just magically appear. It has to be earned and me running around dying to the jungle doesn't generate more gold than last season. Redistributing gold with a higher start-up cost doesn't solve the problems, it creates more. You need to make the creeps drop more gold if you aren't going to give us an extra source of gold .

Overall new jungle items are a flop. New jungle isn't. But the items are just a bad idea. I understand certain people thrive with certain items, but everyone was fine before. I had no problem with the jungle items. Just give all the old ones wards and it would have been a relatively balanced season with a lot of interesting changes. Never really understood why wriggle's and spirit of the golem gave them but the other 2 didn't.

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