Nobody is missing the point of reworks

iTaLenTZ··5 votes·542 views

Everyone knows some champs get reworked because they suffer from inherent unhealthy desgins. But the problem is those issue almost never gets solved and most of the times the reworks tend to aggravate the issue rather than making the champs more healthy gamewise

I will just say it the following champs I had less issues with them prerework: Darius Who tought giving him a heal on his Q + reset on his ult woudl be a good idea? Leblanc Still oneshots people without counterplay but now also got a good waveclear Vladimir Still the toxic non-interactive champ in lane who needs to be kept in trashtier otherwise he will dominate LCS Ryze Maybe the 10th rework will hit the mark Malzahar Received 2 minireworks after the rework nobody ever asked for. Do I need to say more Gangplank Still tries to passively farm the lane and outscale and generating free gold and 'ganking' botlane by pressing the skillbutton. Fiora Same problem Tryndamere has. Lane is decided on RNG. Generally unfun to play against when she is strong in meta because when she is strong she is instantly OP. Graves Already reveived countless nerfs but is still a top pick in the jungle crowding out slower tank junglers. The guy has it all. Mobility, burst, sustained damaged, tankiness, ranged. Talking about generic kits. Garen Useless champ Rengar Still oneshots people but now with tank items Skarner Nobody likes the spires. Shaco Is this really a healthier design? Syndra First she needed sphere management now she just presses R Zyra Condemed to be a support but when she is strong in botlane she is not fun to play against. Just try laning vs Zyra+Cait Zac Changes for the sake of changes. He was already a unique champ with a stable pick/win rate. Now he is lackluster. Especially his ult Taric Useless champ. Everything he does another support can do better. He doesn't have anything that makes you want to pick him in certain situations. Velkoz Changes for the sake of changes nobody asked for. Mordekaiser He is the posterchild of failed reworks. Quinn Needs to be kept trashtier oterwise she will make toplane living hell for melee champs.

Two of the reworks did turn out good Sion Poppy. But only tow of them thus the success rate is embarrassingly low. The others need another rework or smaller scope changes but the fact is a very large mayority of the reworks are NOT improving the champions. The question now is not when will they receive another rework but when will Riot hire competent game designers?

14 Comments

Mecha MaIphite5 votes

Who tought giving him a heal on his Q + reset on his ult woudl be a good idea?

darius ult always reset

and his q actually has counterplay now

MagicFlyingLlama4 votes

Poppy Was good. Sion Was good. Galio Was good, although i miss old galio.. Cassiopeia Was good. Fizz Was also good, still annoying though. Gangplank Some things can only go uphill. Yorick Was good. Graves Uh.. Not what anyone expected, but at least he has a purpose now. Soraka Less stat, more thought. Veigar Something like counterplay. Teemo Uh..

Wind Whistler1 votes

Sion, Poppy, Yorick, and Galio's "reworks" were all, by definition, complete failures.

A rework's purpose is to modernize their kits. The changes made to them didn't modernize them in any way, shape, or form. They're all completely different abilities, and the champion's old identity has been lost, not to mention the visuals are completely different and voiceovers, too.

SithesisLord4 votes

Now quickly tell me what was Old Sion's identity? Other than being a bit of everything but good in nothing?

Old Poppy? Other than being the champion with easily the most unhealthy ultimate in the entire game?

Old Galio? Other than being Rammus' equivalent against full AP comps?

Old Yorick? Other than being more uninteractive than Kayle ever was and not transmitting the feel of an actual gravedigger from the Shadow Isles.

Their reworks weren´t failures by any means. It modernized their kits according to the ever changing design preferences of Riot. It made them more healthy, and gave them actual personality, lore-wise.

The champions' old identity wasn´t lost, because they had no identity to lose in the first place.

After all, the old lore was retconned. And the new one, minus a few exceptions(Targon and Elise) is considerably better.

Wind Whistler1 votes

"Bit of everything but good in nothing". You mean slowly lumbering into the enemy team 1v3 and coming out with full health? Is being an unkillable lifesteal zombie not enough of an identity for you?

Poppy was a small, yet determined diver who could jump in 1v5 and still manage to kill her target before going down. Her voice reflected that pretty well, too, as well as her lore.

??? What do you mean "Rammus' equivalent against full AP comps?"? I honestly have no idea what you mean by this. What did Galio actually do vs AP Champions? Stack MR and end up hitting everyone like a soaked noodle? And no, this isn't a problem with the champion, this is a problem with YOU. If you don't know how to properly use a champion, it doesn't mean the champion is bad, or outdated, or anything, it means that YOU are the problem. Galio had the least wrong with him out of any of these poor champions that were removed. Anyways, Galio's identity was THE teamfight tank/mage hybrid. His ult was incredibly rewarding if you pulled it off right, and no, you didn't need to flash ult them. You could just ult. Flash helped his ultimate, yeah, but doesn't using flash help EVERYTHING?

Yorick was a hyperscaling juggernaut, and unlike Nasus, his kit was based around summoning minions to fight alongside him in battle. Also, he could come back from death, which, for a zombie, makes perfect sense. Just because he was "The Gravedigger" doesn't mean he has to literally dig a fucking grave. How the hell would that work, anyway?

Also, Targon is great. Targon used to be some vague ass place no one knew about, and now we know a lot more, and it's overall just a lot more interesting. Also, no, the "old lore" was never retconned. Riot never decided that they were going to completely get rid of every single champion's lore. The only thing that was retconned was the IOW, and the champions' lores who were connected to it.

Ralanr1 votes

{quoted}

"Bit of everything but good in nothing". You mean slowly lumbering into the enemy team 1v3 and coming out with full health? Is being an unkillable lifesteal zombie not enough of an identity for you?

That's not an identity, that's unhealthy gameplay.

Poppy was a small, yet determined diver who could jump in 1v5 and still manage to kill her target before going down. Her voice reflected that pretty well, too, as well as her lore.

Also unhealthy gameplay.

??? What do you mean "Rammus' equivalent against full AP comps?"? I honestly have no idea what you mean by this. What did Galio actually do vs AP Champions? Stack MR and end up hitting everyone like a soaked noodle? And no, this isn't a problem with the champion, this is a problem with YOU. If you don't know how to properly use a champion, it doesn't mean the champion is bad, or outdated, or anything, it means that YOU are the problem. Galio had the least wrong with him out of any of these poor champions that were removed. Anyways, Galio's identity was THE teamfight tank/mage hybrid. His ult was incredibly rewarding if you pulled it off right, and no, you didn't need to flash ult them. You could just ult. Flash helped his ultimate, yeah, but doesn't using flash help EVERYTHING?

Yes, that is why Galio was an AP Rammus. Not to mention his close range in the middle of everyone ult felt odd on a kit that had no reason to get close. Hell he was melee despite that kit!

Yorick was a hyperscaling juggernaut,

No he wasn't and you're goddamn blind with nostalgia if you thought Yorick was anything good after the laning phase. He scaled HORRIBLY and he fits his thematic of a necromantic summoner better than he did before.

Wind Whistler1 votes

How was that unhealthy gameplay? That's what a fucking juggernaut is. Hard to kill, immobile, and deals a lot of sustained damage. If you want to say the idea of Juggernauts in general is unhealthy, then fine, you win, because I don't really know what to say to that.

Poppy? Unhealthy? The only reason people complained is because people were using her ult in ways that weren't intended, and there was an easy fix to that. They could have made it so that she could ONLY deal damage to the person they targeted, so that way, you would ACTUALLY have to go for that person. That way, she would be a diver who did exactly what a diver is supposed to do. Single out a target and kill them. Actually, that's also what assassins are supposed to do, except even quicker than fighters. Unlike assassins, however, divers tend to get out alive even less, unless they played really well or were ahead. So, unless you want to say that divers are unhealthy in general, no, Poppy didn't deserve to be turned into a mentally retarded support for her ADC.

Um, how was he an AP Rammus if you weren't supposed to be stacking MR on him in the first place? That makes no sense. Also, I'm sorry, but isn't the role of a tank to like, get in and soak damage? That's what his W did amazingly well, as well as his ult. Also, getting in close helped you land your Q and E, which both chunked the crap out of people, and ulting helped you land your Q and E even better. I don't know why the hell you find Galio's kit odd. Up until they decided to "rework" him, I had almost never heard anyone complaining about Galio's kit. All I heard were people saying he was hardly played, or needed to be played more.

I'm not blind with nostalgia, lol. Yorick's laning phase was fucking trash. His cooldowns were high. He had mana issues. He had problems sticking to people. He was squishier because of his high cooldowns. He healed less because of his high cooldowns. He moved slower because of his high cooldowns. He blocked less skillshots because of his high cooldowns. His cooldowns were simply too high, and he absolutely needed items to function. Also, his base damages were fucking shit, and his ghouls were slow, too. All you have to fucking do to see that you're wrong is actually WATCH a game of Old Yorick. You won't see someone dominating their lane with him like you do now, I guarantee it. The only reason you're saying this is because you either sucked with Yorick and/or didn't know how to play him, or didn't even bother playing him in the first place, and you formed your opinion solely based on what everyone else has said about him. There's a good word for that. It's called being a sheep.

Ralanr1 votes

{quoted}

Um, how was he an AP Rammus if you weren't supposed to be stacking MR on him in the first place? That makes no sense. Also, I'm sorry, **but isn't the role of a tank to like, get in and soak damage? That's what his W did amazingly well, as well as his ult.**Also, getting in close helped you land your Q and E, which both chunked the crap out of people, and ulting helped you land your Q and E even better. I don't know why the hell you find Galio's kit odd. Up until they decided to "rework" him, I had almost never heard anyone complaining about Galio's kit. All I heard were people saying he was hardly played, or needed to be played more.

No, his W and ult did not do that amazingly well. Maybe the soaking part, but not the getting in close part.

I'm not blind with nostalgia, lol. Yorick's laning phase was fucking trash. His cooldowns were high. He had mana issues. He had problems sticking to people. He was squishier because of his high cooldowns. He healed less because of his high cooldowns. He moved slower because of his high cooldowns. He blocked less skillshots because of his high cooldowns. His cooldowns were simply too high, and he absolutely needed items to function. Also, his base damages were fucking shit, and his ghouls were slow, too. All you have to fucking do to see that you're wrong is actually WATCH a game of Old Yorick. You won't see someone dominating their lane with him like you do now, I guarantee it. The only reason you're saying this is because you either sucked with Yorick and/or didn't know how to play him, or didn't even bother playing him in the first place, and you formed your opinion solely based on what everyone else has said about him. There's a good word for that. It's called being a sheep.

How tinted are your fucking glasses dude?

Wind Whistler1 votes

His Q and E helped him get in close. Also, you know, simply walking into the enemy team. Not every champion needs to have a dash.

As for Yorick, well, it's obvious I can't reason with you about him. I presented you with facts and evidence, and you threw that into the garbage and deemed ME blind instead of you. I think the person who loves what they're talking about would know more than the person who hates what they're talking about.

EndlessSorcerer1 votes

Now quickly tell me what was Old Sion's identity? Other than being a bit of everything but good in nothing?

Arnold Schwarzenegger.

That was pretty much it.

MagicFlyingLlama1 votes

They seem like total successes, going by their playrates, winrates, popularity, kit health and counterplay options.

I miss old Galio a little, but his overall identity was preserved, he has a similar role, and playing him (or against him) is a lot less annoying and boring now.

I dont think anyone misses original sion or poppy, except maybe trolls.

Your opinion is just that - an opinion. Other people are not required to share it.

Wind Whistler1 votes

{quoted}

They seem like total successes, going by their playrates, winrates, popularity, kit health and counterplay options.

I miss old Galio a little, but his overall identity was preserved, he has a similar role, and playing him (or against him) is a lot less annoying and boring now.

I dont think anyone misses original sion or poppy, except maybe trolls.

Your opinion is just that - an opinion. Other people are not required to share it.

Lol. Yorick's playrate? Yorick's kit health? Do you know how fucking oppressive Yorick is in the laning phase now, and how useless he is outside of it? They tied his ghoul strength to last hitting minions, and since you don't get the opportunity to hit minions outside of lane, and don't get the opportunity to kill minions in teamfights, he's VERY weak in them.

Poppy had problems, I'll admit. Some pretty big problems. She'd slam into you and brutalize you, and it felt pretty unfair, I guess, but she still slams into you now and it feels unfair. What's even worse is that you can't even fucking dash away anymore, and if you don't have a dash, then her W is 100% useless. Do you know how fucking binary that is? They could have easily fixed her ultimate without having to completely change every ability except for one.

Galio's kit was fine. There was pretty much nothing wrong with it. He had the same level of counterplay he does now, maybe even more. To be honest, I don't have much of a problem with this- Not as much as with Poppy and especially Yorick. They removed a perfectly fine champion and replaced him with a perfectly fine champion. I'd probably play the new Galio a lot regularly if he didn't take up the slot of old Galio.

Sion... Yeah. His playrate was almost nonexistant. I only saw him like, three times out of 1000 games. He had the option of going either AD or AP, and both were perfectly viable, but that's because two of his abilities were incredibly strong with AP, and two of his abilities were incredibly strong with AD, which was... Really strange. It's clear he was meant to be played AD, though, because he wielded a big fucking axe, and his lore made a lot more sense with his AD playstyle. What they did to him made no sense, though. Instead of reinforcing his intended playstle, they just scrapped everything about him completely. No AD, no AP, just some dumb CC Tank. It's funny, how his name used to be "The Undead Champion", and he functioned much more as a Juggernaut, but when they changed his name to "The Undead JUGGERNAUT", he became less of a Juggernaut. Hah. Oh well, I guess.

TehNACHO2 votes

Oh here we go.

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Darius Who tought giving him a heal on his Q + reset on his ult woudl be a good idea?

A lot of people in fact. Including the delay on his Q, it gave him far more reward for working harder while also making his kit less binary. Also, people have in fact been begging for the full reset in the late game because it felt odd otherwise. This was done without reintroducing why this function was removed from the original Darius kit; that he can dunk his lane opponent and already be up again by the time they get back.

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Leblanc Still oneshots people without counterplay but now also got a good waveclear

If you're a squishy that tries to duel her, sure. The slightly elongated time frame for her full damage output however means that defensive champions can react and protect others from her, and the waveclear helps her be less binary of a champion when she starts to fall behind.

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Vladimir Still the toxic non-interactive champ in lane who needs to be kept in trashtier otherwise he will dominate LCS

And now I'm sure you don't actually understand Vlad because you're talking about two completely different things here.

He's far more interactive than before. Blood Rush makes it obvious when he's strong and he's rather weak without it. His E can now be body blocked, by minions no less, reducing the free poke he gets on you just cuz he's AOE'ing the minion wave or something like that.

The reason he dominates in LCS is because of the damage amp on his ultimate, something coordinated teams can abuse a thousand times more than the average yolo q of 5 while also being a safe laner. The damage amp was in fact stronger before the rework, and the safety issue was handled by making Spirit Visage less effective for making Vlad a 1 item wonder.

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Ryze Maybe the 10th rework will hit the mark

Hes pretty alright now.

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Malzahar Received 2 minireworks after the rework nobody ever asked for. Do I need to say more

Yeah, how in the world did you possibly think he was less toxic with his previous design. Space Aids is only fun for one player, and his old iteration had multiple problems all stemming around it.

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Gangplank Still tries to passively farm the lane and outscale and generating free gold and 'ganking' botlane by pressing the skillbutton.

I don't see why this is necessarily a bad thing. His power curve was supposed to be closer to a hyper carry that plays safe early to scale into a monster late. This was also done with a waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay better E and Ultimate.

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Fiora Same problem Tryndamere has. Lane is decided on RNG. Generally unfun to play against when she is strong in meta because when she is strong she is instantly OP.

She's pretty strong right now, but not broken op like you seem to be implying.

Also given that it's a boards post, I can only imagine you tend to view champions from a "can I duel this" standpoint, in which case of course Fiora seems obnoxious.

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Graves Already reveived countless nerfs but is still a top pick in the jungle crowding out slower tank junglers. The guy has it all. Mobility, burst, sustained damaged, tankiness, ranged. Talking about generic kits.

While he is strong, the problem that was supposed to be fixed in the first place was solved. He's now got a unique niche amongst Marksman rather than competing with others in who Bursts and Lane Bullies the best.

Also I really can't help that this complaint is aimed at really high elo. Like, competitive level players. For the vast majority of the playerbase, he's just par to sometimes obnoxious if fed. If anything, Tank champions perform just as well if not better than him in yolo q.

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Garen Useless champ

Still better than old Garen.

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Rengar Still oneshots people but now with tank items

This description fits old Rengar.

Before you even start, Full Damage Rengar was and always will be a yolo q/casual build that you play because it's funny, not because it's good.

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Skarner Nobody likes the spires.

Fair enough

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Shaco Is this really a healthier design?

I'd say.

Better designed Backstab, fixed his Q cast time, reduced the power of his ridiculous level 2-4 cheese while building a better mid game Assassin power spike, gave him actual invisibility and fixed and interaction with his Q and W, stopped making his boxes explode from being breathed on later in the game, fixed his W's cast time, reduced a dumb tower diving tool with his boxes, E is straight up less binary as a whole, fixed yet another cast time bug in his Ultimate, reduced a bit of his obnoxious splitpushing and tower diving with his ultimate, and made blowing up his Ultimate way better than just an instant kamikaze.

Furthermore he's able to be strong as a champion without destroying solo q or competitive meta, so yeah.

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Zyra Condemed to be a support but when she is strong in botlane she is not fun to play against. Just try laning vs Zyra+Cait

MissFortune

Fair enough though

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Zac Changes for the sake of changes. He was already a unique champ with a stable pick/win rate. Now he is lackluster. Especially his ult

Not really unique at all. Many Zac mains agree his old Q was incredibly plain, and really, explain to me old Zac's niche in a way that doesn't coincide with "Tank that flies in out of nowhere and causes disruption everywhere" Alistar Amumu Gnar JarvanIV Leona Malphite Nautilus Rammus Sejuani Zac

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Taric Useless champ. Everything he does another support can do better. He doesn't have anything that makes you want to pick him in certain situations.

This is just factually not true.

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Velkoz Changes for the sake of changes nobody asked for.

Ehh, mostly true.

He's pretty squarely THE true damage mage though. It also made his Q way more easy to interact with as well as made his Q his main laning tool. Nothing says interactive and fun gameplay more than insta clearing minion waves with double W.

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Mordekaiser He is the posterchild of failed reworks.

Yep.

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Quinn Needs to be kept trashtier oterwise she will make toplane living hell for melee champs.

She's pretty okay right now as a counter pick in top lane without breaking top lane.

{quoted}

They all need another rework or smaller scope changes but the fact is a very large mayority of the reworks are NOT improving the champions. The question now is not when will they receive another rework but when will Riot hire competent game designers?

I count three out of your long list of champions that I can't see having been improved.

SithesisLord1 votes

Same problem Tryndamere has. Lane is decided on RNG. Generally unfun to play against when she is strong in meta because when she is strong she is instantly OP.

Actually, it´s less RNG dependant as Tryndamere.

You and her both have control over the vitals appearing, but not where they´ll appear, despite the fact it´s pretty clear how the pseudo-RNG works. It´s just a matter of not trading when she has a vital in her favor.

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