Seriously, the game is so out of balance right now it's no fun. This is probably worse than the assassin meta. Between the Juggernauts, Sated junglers, and the champions who are simply broken (
,etc), the game really is horrible right now.
Worlds is probably going to be horrible this year because of it.
Hollandio1 votesWhy don't you chill, 5.18 is going to sum up this patch nicely
Lugg1 votesWhy can't they disable them till then? Like I said, the entire game is broken because of this.
GinoSoldier2 votesWhy can't they disable them till then? Like I said, the entire game is broken because of this.
Except that's not true. All four Juggernauts have ways to be counterplayed even if they are on the strong side, Fiora isn't nearly as powerful as people seem to believe especially against high sustain opponents, and Devourer can be countered by pretty much anything early game. The only item that's too strong in the game right now is Botrk. You may not like the game as it is now, but i like having players on the field that can't get instantly blown up by carries. The game isn't broken, and everything works fine.
Lugg2 votesYeah, those champions are supposed to be tanks who have low damage, not fighters who are tankier than the tanks and do ADC level damage.
GinoSoldier2 votesYeah, those champions are supposed to be tanks who have low damage, not fighters who are tankier than the tanks and do ADC level damage.
They aren't tanks, they are Juggernauts. Not at all the same thing. Tanks, like Malphite, Sejuani and Sion have by far more CC than the Juggernauts. Garen has a silence that's pretty much only relevant against a third of the champions in the game, Darius an unreliable pull, Skarner has a terrible ranged slow leading to a potential stun and a potential abduction, and Mordekaiser has nothing. Malphite, Sejuani and Sion have AOE stuns and slows, and knockups. To make up for that lack of CC, Juggernauts have damage. It's a good counterpart no matter how you look at it. Also, they do NOT do ADC level damage. Garen can land a 1k shot damage with his ult? Any ADC can do that damage consistently with mere autoattacks. Not at all the same thing.
Lugg1 votesMordekaiser has nothing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fs5EMk8PpTQ
Yeah, a 65% win rate sure is nothing.
APrinnyDood1 votesHe doesn't have a 65% winrate. It's an error with champion.gg. Riot's API doesn't accurately classify Mordekaiser's games when he loses. Take a look at champion.gg and see how only 44% of Mordekaiser's games are listed as being ADC, while 15% are top and another 40ish% are unknown. Does that seem a bit odd? It should, given that I think we both know he's not being played in "unknown" 40% of the time.
The thing is, Riot's API sees him go bot lane as something other than an ADC (often with a support item), and it thinks that he might be a support. If he's winning and gets a lot of CS and items, it figures out pretty quickly that he's the carry. If he's losing and can't complete items quickly enough, or isn't substantially ahead of his teammates in gold, it becomes very uncertain and doesn't properly assign him a role until quite late in the game. If his team loses before it can make that decision, he ends listed as being an "unknown", even though he's played in the bot lane carry role. This classification failure happens in the majority of the games where his team loses by 20-25 minutes.
That is why Morde has such a high winrate on champion.gg and other sites right now. In reality, his winrate is much closer to 50%. Lolking gives a 51.77% winrate, and while that is brought down by his top lane games, that would still only leave him at around a 53% winrate maximum as a bot lane carry. That's strong, but not ungodly broken. It still needs a bit of a nerf, but it's really not that bad. Even then, a lot of it is that people are playing so many tank supports right now, and he just crushes them because all he wants to do is fight in melee range. Play a utility support, beat Morde, smile a lot. Nami works wonders.
Lugg1 votesI guarantee that Morde's win rate is AT LEAST in the 55-60% range. If you have had to face him bot, you know this is true. If he has a support with Relic Shield or a heal, you will never poke him down and out of lane. He just has way too much sustain in that situation. I have been in games where we harassed him non stop and couldn't get him below 90% health. It's unbelieveable.
APrinnyDood1 votesI guarantee that Morde's win rate is AT LEAST in the 55-60% range. If you have had to face him bot, you know this is true.
And I guarantee that it isn't, both off of my experience and off of the data I can see. Mathematically, he can't have a 60% winrate bot and a 52% winrate overall if his winrate top is 42%. He'd have to be played in other roles at least 40% of the time for that to be true, and he isn't. It is actually impossible for him to have that winrate. Literally, it can not be true unless every single scrap of winrate data we have about him is incorrect.
My play experience against him suggest that too. I'm winning about 50% of my games against him, and that's after about 25-30 games against him. He's strong, but he's not anywhere near 60% winrate strong. He falls off way too hard for that. You can't beat him in lane, but he can't force you to fight him in lane, and any kind of peel can completely screw him throughout the rest of the game. Pick Janna or Nami or Soraka or Lulu, and you'll do fine. He's still one of the strongest guys down there, but dear lord it's nowhere near 60%. Even 55% is pushing it.
Lugg1 votesYou have already stated that the data is flawed, so we have to go by experience in game as well. Morde is a wrecking ball bot right now. Plus, whenever you look at the numbers on Champion.GG, you can literally discard the numbers for players who have less than 15 games on a champ. They don't know how to properly use that champion. If you also look at the pie chart, you will see that those players make up about 45% of games played on that champion. That is why champs like Zed have such crappy win rates even though they are very strong. The numbers are VERY skewed.
Not to brag, but I've gotten very good at looking at the numbers on champs and how strong they actually are compared to how they are perceived.
APrinnyDood1 votesYou have already stated that the data is flawed, so we have to go by experience in game as well.
Part of the data is flawed. The data for his presence in top lane is accurate because that part of the Riot API isn't messed up. His total winrate data isn't messed up either, because that can be easily and accurately measured without any judgments having to be made by the software. When I said he can't have a 60% winrate, I meant it. It is literally mathematically impossible.
Additionally, my experience directly contradicts yours. So, even if we're using experience, I don't have anything to suggest I should value your experience over my own. Nothing indicates to me that I should.
Plus, whenever you look at the numbers on Champion.GG, you can literally discard the numbers for players who have less than 15 games on a champ. They don't know how to properly use that champion. If you also look at the pie chart, you will see that those players make up about 45% of games played on that champion.
Sure, but that doesn't really give us any increase in actionable data here. Anything we could read off of this is still corrupted by champion.gg's failures. His winrate based on total games played is a freaking sine wave. So, while this may be an acceptable principle in general, it doesn't do anything for letting us interpret the data we have about Mordekaiser.
Not to brag, but I've gotten very good at looking at the numbers on champs and how strong they actually are compared to how they are perceived.
That isn't really enough for me. Anyone can claim that. I think that about myself too, and I disagree with you. There's nothing objective to any of that. Even if this is true about you, I have no way of actually verifying that.
Lugg1 votesI see the problem now. You are concentrating on top Morde. That is not the issue at all. Of course he is horrible top because they reworked him specifically to NOT be a solo laner. Bot lane Morde is what the issue is. It would be the same as taking Corki top, who cares! So you can totally throw out the top numbers.
I understand that experience in game is pretty subjective, but you have to draw from somewhere when you have incomplete data. I believe most people would agree with my assessment.
APrinnyDood1 votesI see the problem now. You are concentrating on top Morde.
No I'm not. Everything I said was about botlane Morde. I ignored toplane Morde outside of a short discussion of how its low pickrate and winrate still didn't mean that botlane Morde's winrate could possibly be 60% (I said "The data for his presence in top lane is accurate because that part of the Riot API isn't messed up." as a way of establishing that the argument I used for how it is was mathematically impossible for him to have a 60% winrate as an ADC was accurate because all of the data used for it would not be affected by the problems with the Riot API). Outside of that, everything I said was about botlane Morde.
Toplane Morde is shit. I spoke about botlane Morde in everything I said. Everything I will say from here on will be about botlane Morde unless I explicitly mention toplane Morde.
Is that clear? I'm trying to be very, very direct that I'm not talking about toplane Morde. I don't there to be any room for confusion here. If there is, please let me know and I'll be happy to help clear up whatever I haven't effectively communicated.
I understand that experience in game is pretty subjective, but you have to draw from somewhere when you have incomplete data.
Yes, but that doesn't give me any more reason to agree with you. I've seen very skilled streamers that aren't impressed with Morde, and he's had very little impact on pro play. As far as subjective data goes, that's enough for me to not be convinced of him being amazing. Strong, yes. Unstoppable, no.
The Fast2 votesIn WHAT world were Darius, Skarner, Mordekaiser, and Garen EVER pure tanks with low damage? Every single one of those champions is made to be durable and dish out damage. Are Juggernauts overtuned? Yup. Are they a bad idea, in a game where Kalista exists? No.
Imagine if Master Yi didn't have untargetability? Or Gangplank didn't have a cleanse? What would these melee carries need to do their job instead? They'd either need more damage, mobility, or durability. That's the logic behind Juggernauts. Take a champion, make them slower, then make them do more damage when they get in range. Juggernauts are too strong on a purely numerical basis, not an identity based basis.
Lugg1 votes[{quoted}](name=Knight Kore,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tdhxzg2n,comment-id=00000000000000000001,timestamp=2015-09-13T22:47:49.671+0000)
Are they a bad idea, in a game where Kalista exists? No.
So you are saying it's fine to have an entire subclass of champions be OP because of one champion?
Imagine if Master Yi didn't have untargetability? Or Gangplank didn't have a cleanse? What would these melee carries need to do their job instead? They'd either need more damage, mobility, or durability. That's the logic behind Juggernauts. Take a champion, make them slower, then make them do more damage when they get in range. Juggernauts are too strong on a purely numerical basis, not an identity based basis.
Yi and GP do great damage, but they are killable. The problem with Juggernauts is that their weakness, being slow, doesn't exist. Darius can pull half the champs in the game within their AA range and has a slow. Garen has a massive MS buff on Q and one on E. Skarner has a MS buff and a ranged slow. Morde has a free shield and a heal. And let's not even talk about the items they can buy like DMP.
Garen has always been a brick. At least before the rework his damage was fair. Darius was an early game bully who fell off late game, completely fair. Skarner was very well balanced, you never saw a single nerf Skarner thread. Skarner was ALREADY the exact thing the Juggernaut changes were supposed to make! Morde was a niche pick, but had a fair win rate. Plus he was very tanky thanks to his shield.
Like I said, the reworks were totally unnecessary. These champs only need slight tweaks.
APrinnyDood1 votesSkarner was very well balanced, you never saw a single nerf Skarner thread.
You also never saw Skarner. It's easy to say he's well balanced when no ever actually had to think about him.
Skarner was ALREADY the exact thing the Juggernaut changes were supposed to make!
A poorly designed boring champion with no agency that no one wanted to play? Yeah, that worked out so well for him. 5th lowest pickrate is the mark of a quality champion.
Darius was an early game bully who fell off late game, completely fair.
Like hell it was fair. It was either "I'm melee and I'm very slightly behind so the lane is completely over because I can't outplay even a single thing about Darius", or literally anything else happened and he was useless. That sucked for everyone involved. This Darius is a bit too strong, but he's way more fair.
Lugg1 votesIt think this points out the real problem. Balanced champions are not played often because Riot does a piss poor job of nerfing the OP champions. Yes, the meta changes, but it's really easy to see what champions need nerfing the next patch if they are dominating. If Riot did that, all champions would have decent playrates.
APrinnyDood1 votesThat sounds way too idealistic and simple to me, and it doesn't really fit with past experiences. Riot's balance history is mainly nerf-focused. Throughout all of seasons 1-3, and for a lot of season 4, they balanced probably 66% of the time with nerfs. It didn't fix the problems. Some champions still went chronically unplayed until they finally hit 55% winrates, saw play until they got nerfed for being OP, then fell off of the face of the earth again (Skarner actually did exactly this in season 4 following his second mini-rework / balance change). At some point, they had to concede that just playing nerf whack-a-mole wasn't working.
Skarner wasn't getting played no matter who got nerfed, because he brought nothing unique to the table. He was the very model of a boring champion with exactly one unique mechanic that wasn't really that unique. Unless you made him OP (and he already had a 52% winrate so you really to tune it up), he wasn't going to see play. Skarner is my favorite champion, but I will still tell you that I would never have considered him worth picking unless every other champion in his class sucked. He was either going to be the strongest champion, or he was not going to see play. There was no middle ground.
Some champions are poorly designed and won't see play until their design problems are fixed. A lot of the "balanced" champions are ones who don't actually do anything that other champions don't. They can technically be played, but there is never any strategic reason to do so because other champions do every aspect of their role at least as well as they do. Multiple champions share the same role and the same basic mechanics, so whichever one is strongest sees play while the others don't, and there will always be a strongest because their kits aren't differentiated enough for them to be worth picking in different situations. That's the kind of problem that calls for reworks, and that is exactly the problem the juggernauts had. They all competed with other champions for the exact same role, played in the exact same way.
The juggernauts are much better designed now. They actually serve unique purposes in the game. Yeah, they're overtuned, but that can be fixed and they'll still be worth playing. No numbers tuning would ever have fixed old Darius, Garen, Skarner or Morde.
Lugg1 votesThat's why I said you nerf the most powerful champs and buff the least powerful ones. While there will ALWAYS be champions that are better in the meta, the difference can be slight if they balance things properly.
Skarner was my favorite jungler before the rework and he was very viable. Like you said, he had a 52% win rate. It's ok to have niche champions as long as the niche is common enough for them to be played on at least a semi regular basis.
The reworks weren't bad in the regard you are talking about, but it upsets me that Riot overbuffs champs when they come out or are reworked just to up their sales numbers. If a champion is well designed, they will sale regardless of whether they are OP or not.
APrinnyDood1 votesThat's why I said you nerf the most powerful champs and buff the least powerful ones. While there will ALWAYS be champions that are better in the meta, the difference can be slight if they balance things properly.
You just said nerf, but fair enough, I could have assumed you meant both. Anyway, this is what they try to do, but it still leaves a ton of champions unplayed despite being balanced. Reworks are an acceptable solution to that issue.
it upsets me that Riot overbuffs champs when they come out or are reworked just to up their sales numbers.
I get that feeling, but this isn't a completely fair perception. As often as not, reworks or champion releases come out underpowered. It isn't an attempt to alter sales. It's the difficulty of balancing something novel. People were actually that Skarner was underpowered on the PBE up until the day he got released. They legitimately thought he would be terrible. That should tell us something about how hard balance on new designs is.
It's annoying that stuff doesn't get balanced, but I wouldn't attribute that to malice or greed on Riot's part. It's just a really challenging task.
he was very viable.
That isn't good enough. Yorick is viable. Galio is viable. Freaking Urgot is professionally played, so by definition he's viable. That doesn't make for good design with unique and fair strengths.
It's ok to have niche champions as long as the niche is common enough for them to be played on at least a semi regular basis.
Sure, so long as it's actually a unique niche. Skarner didn't have that. That's why he was so unplayed despite technically being a strong champion. He needed help badly.
Lugg1 votesI just believe that if the champs were more balanced, there wouldn't be a stigma to playing certain champs. That right there were increase the playrate of every champ.
APrinnyDood1 votesYou are right, and it would help some and should be done, but I just think there is a lot more to the problem than balance. So, take this as me not disagreeing with your answer, but just as me finding your answer a little too short.
A lot of champions are balanced but there is still a stigma to them. That's not a balance issue, it's a lack of strategic diversity in the champions. If 3 champions are all balanced but they all do the exact same thing in the exact same way, then whichever one is the strongest by even the smallest margin will outstrip the others massively. That's the problem that all of the juggernauts had. They weren't unique, so any champion competing for their role could take all their glory because you could always find a champion better for a specific job than Darius or Skarner or Garen was. They were all balanced, but they not worth playing because other balanced champions had more defined specialties and unique strengths.
It's not just the stigma that's the problem. It's players legitimately not wanting to touch someone who doesn't bring something unique to the table. Why pick up X champion if Y and Z champion each do a part of X champion's job better than X champion does?
I agree that good balance will help, but it can't fix the problems of bad design. Design is the king of helping champions see play. Balance comes after that. It could be better than it is right now, but I really do that it's a secondary issue. Almost everything is viable, but not everything is worth playing. That is where design has to come into play.
Lugg1 votesIf 3 champions are all balanced but they all do the exact same thing in the exact same way, then whichever one is the strongest by even the smallest margin will outstrip the others massively.
I mostly agree with your post except for this. Multiple champions probably don't do the exact same thing in the same way. I can't think of any two that really fit that. Besides, there are always slightly different mechanics on every champion. Some people will do better on the lesser champion even if the other champion is slightly stronger. So all champions still see play if you have balance.
franticFurball1 votesWrong, they are supposed to be tanky bruisers, who deal high damage but need to get to their target in order to do so. And thats exactly what they are doing.
Lugg1 votesHow are you supposed to stop them? They are usually top lane, so there is also an ADC and mid laner that you have to worry about. So you can't use your CC on them, they won't die quick enough that your team can win the fight. If you waste your kiting and CC on them, the rest of their team Aces you. That is why you can't have tanky champs that do lots of damage, it's an unbeatable mechanic.
franticFurball1 votesExcuse me, your team has someone on toplane too I guess?
Secondly: "waste kiting"? They are usually the only champs that CAN be kited, because midlanes are either ranged or have CC or hve gapcloser, as do junglers.
And thirdly, your team only has one CC, among 5 people? Thats your teams fault in champ select, not the juggernauts.
Lugg1 votesIf my top laner is Fiora, we might be able to cancel him out enough. Otherwise, you are pretty much screwed most matchups.
Like I said, if you focus on kiting them, the rest of the team runs wild on you. If you don't kite him, he destroys your carries. It's a lose/lose proposition.
I have yet to see a single CC stop a Juggernaut. They are just too hard to kill. That's the point I'm trying to make.
franticFurball1 votes
Just a small number of champions (didnt bother to go through the entire list) who all have one thing is common: They are excellent at dealing with the toplane-Juggernauts (Garen and Darius), and can continue to lock them down easily during teamfights.
Lugg1 votesWhile some of those champions can do reasonably well against one of the Juggernauts, the only one that does well against all of them is 
.
Gnar does good against Garen, but gets wrecked by Darius. GP and Ryze get absolutely destroyed by them early. The list goes on and on.
After the next round of nerfs, things will hopefully somewhere near fair, but right now it's a joke.
Big Lincoln1 votesidk i've been having fun
i think people just aren't used to dealing with tanky melee carries yet. at worst, their spells are too cost-efficient, but that can be tuned pretty easily. most of their kits are in a much healthier spot
Lugg1 votes[{quoted}](name=Solomon Money,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tdhxzg2n,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-09-13T22:07:44.620+0000) tanky melee carries
You can't have this in the game and have it balanced. Tanky champions that do carry damage can't be countered.
Big Lincoln4 voteswhy not? most mobas have them
immobile melee carries need to be durable to survive. it's pretty fair considering the amount of self-peel that ranged ones have, on top of having crits for double damage, way burstier "DPS" than the juggernauts (Excluding Mordekaiser), and an entire team that will hopefully do everything they can to keep them away.
it's only fitting that they be allowed to punish you if you fail to keep out of their threat range.
Lugg1 votes[{quoted}](name=Solomon Money,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Tdhxzg2n,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-09-13T22:25:31.083+0000)
it's only fitting that they be allowed to punish you if you fail to keep out of their threat range.
To stay out of their threat range, you have to give up every objective on the map. They totally ignore towers.
Big Lincoln1 voteshow is that different from ranged marksman killing you much faster from much farther away?
Lugg1 votesBecause you can actually kill marksmen.
3TWarrior2 votesas the other person points out, you really shouldn't have a tanky carry...there's such a thing as a tanky mage...but a tank that can wipe out your whole team unless you waste 2 crowd controls and every debuff/buff for that one champion...
played against an Aatrox...it took the entire team to kill aatrox and he would usually kill at least one person and if he was left alone, he would kill the entire team...that's not to mention their ADC and middle carry
HEAljvLykd1 votesSaw your stupid qq post, read it and instantly thought that you were probably bronze. I go onto na.op and what do you know, you are bronze. Why do bronze players have such shitty Thought processes?
Lugg2 votesYep, the old "you are Bronze" response because you can't actually provide any counter point at all.
HEAljvLykd1 votesYep, the old "you are Bronze" response because you can't actually provide any counter point at all.
I did have a point. You're bronze , you basically shit out of your mouth.
Lugg2 votesI'm pretty sure this response means you rode the short bus to school.
Stars Shaper1 votesBecause the only issue with them (as well as with Yasuo) is tards refusing to learn how to deal with them.
Lugg1 votesOk, how do you deal with them?
RyzeRework1 votesYou pick ashe and kite you pick an anti tank champion like poppy or trundle champions like elise juggernauts can only do shit if ur next to them and they are really slow and easy to kite
Lugg1 votesPoppy gets destroyed in laning phase against them. Trundle can't do much until level 6. Ashe vs Morde also depends on the supports involved, but it's a decent counter most games. Elise is good against them top, but honestly, how often do you see Elise top?
Stars Shaper1 votesMorde gets destroyed by any form of ranged CC or blind
Also there is Trundle for Top Laners and all Juggs are vulnerable to kite. If you don't play melee Teemo who saves his Q for the kill you'll be fine.
Lugg1 votesHow does blind do anything to Morde? He can still Q and E. Trundle can beat them if his ult is up. Teemo is great against them in the laning phase, but the Juggernauts are worth way more to their teams mid and late game.
franticFurball1 votesI have great fun. If you don't, you have my sympathy, but that doesn't make the game horrible. You are not speaking for the entire community.
RyzeRework1 votesA juggernaut walks into a bar just for trundle to but fuck them
Lugg1 votesThen why hasn't there been a huge spike in Trundle play?