Hextech Gunblade suffer from an identity crisis. Is it an AP assassin item or a hybrid sustain item?

YumaS2Astral··52 votes·4,330 views

item 3146 <-- this item suffer from the same issue as item 3151, which is currently divided into being an anti-tank item (due to its passive) or an item that is good against squishies (due to the flat magic penetration). That is being solved in the PBE: Liandry has been changed to finally focus on its niche as an anti-tank AP item, while another item with flat magic penetration is being added to compensate; one that has a better passive for AP assassins (apply Grievous Wounds).

I think Hextech Gunblade also suffers from a similar problem. The active screams "AP assassin item". But the build path, the stats, and the omnivamp screams "sustain item for hybrid champions".

Most AP assassins don't actually build Hextech Gunblade. The three exceptions are Akali and Katarina, which actually take advantage of the stats and build path (and in case of Akali, gives her even more sustain). There is also LeBlanc, which is a weird abomination that builds it because she really needs the damage and slow that this item offers. Shaco used to build it, but AP Shaco is no longer a thing. Ahri builds it sometimes but it is not included in her most popular build paths (I know Ahri is not an assassin, but she tends to be mentioned when people talk about AP assassins). Other AP assassins like Fizz, Ekko, Kassadin, Nidalee, and Evelynn do not build it because its build path and stats sucks for them. It is also too expensive for them.

As for the hybrid champions; there are very few actual hybrids, and the term itself is ambiguous. If we are talking about hybrid scaling champions, then there are actually a good amount of them. Examples include Ezreal and Tristana. But almost none of them actually builds both AP and AD. If we are talking about champions which build both AD and AP, there are quite a few of them, such as Jax, and Mordekaiser. With that said, while they can, they rarely build hybrid. Jax's meta build is the Triforce + Titanic Hydra build which is mid game centric and is purely AD. Mordekaiser doesn't have good itemization that can support an hybrid build for him, so most of time he builds purely AP. Kog'Maw actually builds hybrid most of time, but he rarely has room to fit Hextech Gunblade on his build.

On my opinion, this item should also be split in two items. One which is focused on the active, for AP assassins, It should be purely AP (and build only from AP items), and be a bit cheaper. Peharps, have cooldown reduction. The other item should be the actual AD/AP item, with the omnivamp passive, and another passive (or active) that better supports hybrid builds. Peharps an on-hit effect?

52 Comments

saltran16 votes

Weird that they are not touching Gunblade in the AP items update.

xiniba9 votes

Akali is balanced around Gunblade so do not expect any changes pre Rework.

EyasHawk12 votes

I wouldnt call Akali balanced at all to be honest. lol Insane burst + resets + lifesteal to full Hp in seconds + Stealth is a recipe for disaster on an Assassin.

YumaS2Astral12 votes

{quoted}

I wouldnt call Akali balanced at all to be honest. lol Insane burst + resets + lifesteal to full Hp in seconds + Stealth is a recipe for disaster on an Assassin.

And then she falls off incredibly hard late game where she can't burst the ADC fast enough, and is easy prey to CC.

I am not saying that Akali is weak, just that she is the definition of a binary champion.

RainXBlade3 votes

Being binary is what makes Akali unhealthy. It's either:

  • She pops off and murders anything she can dash onto with her R and stay fine because of her stupid passive or....
  • She falls flat to the floor and even if she manages to heal something off because of her passive, the enemy would still have enough damage to kill her.

I get that she's balanced by looking at her base numbers. BUT, her playstyle is just outright unhealthy.

Also, I like your IGN.

Capt Ahmad1 votes

{quoted}

  • She falls flat to the floor and even if she manages to heal something off because of her passive, the enemy would still have enough damage to kill her.

I get that she's balanced by looking at her base numbers. BUT, her playstyle is just outright unhealthy.

I disagree with these points, I find it very healthy for newer players, and even for OTP's, don't ruin Akali for the sake of high Elo players!!

Also, I like your IGN.

Me too!! :D

VoraciousX4 votes

"Most AP assassins don't built gunblade", only the most popular and used AP assassins. As for Evelynn, some Evelynn's have build gunblade on her. Sunset, number 1 Evelynn(According to op.gg) builds revolver on her and never seems to finish it(Yeah I know it's not gunblade and it can build into other things but honestly the burst from the active is somewhat loaded on to the passive of revolver) I remember when she first came out someone was building her straight AP and had a good track record, it may have even been Sunset. Leblanc builds it because that slow basically guarantees your death when she uses it on you. It's friggin oppressive.

Infernape3 votes

LeBlanc really builds it because her burst is far too delayed. Her passive takes far too long to prime and proc so Gunblade/Revolver gives her some modicum of burst.

Sex With Annie4 votes

Gunblade has the exact same problem that duskblade has. Its literally just a "burst button" added onto your champion. Since the champions that use it delete you in half a second without it, it makes those champs even more annoying to play against.

Teridax684 votes

AP itemization in general suffers from a problem of function overlap, where a lot of items fulfil two or more radically different niches at once (Morellonomicon is also currently guilty of this). I completely agree with the conclusion that Gunblade needs to be split into at least two additional items, and in the manner the OP specified.

Currently, the active is picked for its extremely reliable burst damage, like Deathfire Grasp without follow-up, and this in itself conflicts with Protobelt, whose dash active also carries a shotgun damage component (which itself would work with the melee-range approach of most assassins). It might therefore be better to make Protobelt the dedicated item for upfront burst and mobility (though that in itself arguably counts as two different niches), and thus core on AP assassins.

As for the omnivamp effect, the issue thus far has been that Riot just doesn't know how to balance it on casters, even if autoattackers are allowed to have it with Death's Dance. Personally, I think it might be interesting to have something like a self-beneficial version of Athene's Unholy Grail, where you store a portion of the damage you deal, but this time can use an item active to heal yourself for that stored damage. It would allow for much better control over how spells fill this reserve up (you could have different modifiers for damage over time, single-target versus AoE, damage against champions versus non-champions, etc.), while still maintaining the clarity of a single, universal source of healing.

Beyond that, I personally don't think there really needs to be any accommodations made for a hybrid item. Currently, the only two hybrid AD/AP items in the game are Gunblade and Rageblade, and neither is picked primarily for its hybrid stats, not even on champions with hybrid scalings who purchase it (e.g. Akali). In fact, in both cases, the extra stat actually weighs the item down, and in the case of Rageblade this is deliberate (the item needs to stall its build path in a manner that doesn't load too much on useful stats). Therefore, removing the hybridity of those items might actually benefit them both, and if League is ever to have hybrid builds, that would require encouraging multiplicative scaling between those two stats, or at least changes that would make hybrid builds compete with the multiplicative scalings of full AD or AP builds.

Terchio2 votes

I'd agree with this. Another example to me is Luden's Echo. It looks primarily like a heavy damage spike to ranged poke builds, but I often use it because it's the healthiest spike of AP and movement speed, and therefore strong on AP bruisers in sticking to targets, at least in the early goings. Runic Echoes is the same way, and would make sense on bruisers there in the jungle. The CDR change will be interesting because it will be more appropriate for pokers, I think, but those champions surely got their CDR elsewhere already, probably mostly Morellonomicon, Hextech Protobelt, and Boots of Lucidity, or maybe a support/defensive item.

I'm not sure I agree with Morellonomicon being bifunctional, though. It's basically healthy AP/CDR/mana, and a caster passive on one item. I feel like it's as much a generic caster boost as one can get. Maybe you can clarify that. I'd consider it bifunctional if specific stats on it help a particular class more than another with two or more marginally competing stats, and I just don't see that on Morellonomicon. As an example, Trinity Force has a crap-ton of stats, many of which competing, but none of them are stronger on the item than the movement and damage passives. CDR on it actually serves to proc those more often. I feel like this leaves the item somewhat single function because it's best used on tanky/kiting champions who weave spells and autoattacks reliably. Morellonomicon may help more champions, but the generic AP help, to me, makes the item helpful to all AP classes, not just one or two classes in split ways, and then tends to benefit champions who abuse both playstyles, like Luden's with Nidalee (who is basically non-viable without it or Lich Bane).

Teridax681 votes

I completely agree that Luden's Echo is also a good example of an item that could easily be split into at least two more. Regarding Morellonomicon, I think it's multifunctional because it's a) a premium CDR item (Nashor's is the only other AP item that offers 20% CDR), b) a premium AP item (few other AP items offer 100 or more AP), c) an item to solve mana issues, due to its mana stat and restore, and d) an anti-healing item, due to its Grievous Wounds. It effectively goes into four separate directions, which has prevented other AP items from having the strength they deserve, and which is also why the item's getting made into something much more specialized with the impending AP item rework.

Golden Tager X4 votes

Part of the hybrid problem is the fact that they kinda took away every other hybrid item. Like you can argue that rageblade is still a hybrid item but it functionally is only bought for that 6-hit passive. Triforce completely lost it's hybrid status so that leaves item 3146 item 3115 item 3124 for hybrid items, buuuuuuuuuuuuut, that is really expensive and doesn't give much until you have at least gunblade rageblade. which is 7k

Capt Ahmad1 votes

Hybrid champions are supposed to scale HARD into late game! Think about it!! Jax, Kayle, even Teemo and maybe even Master Yi?!

They NEED to get fed in order to acquire these expensive items, it is quite the balance IMHO.

TheWizardM3 votes

It's also used in on-hit builds when the enemies don't have enough tanks to justify BOTRK, as well as most in-the-face-but-not-quite-assassin ap builds (like ap Bard) since they don't dive in- and out, so they need some sustain. I think they should re-split the item into what it used to be; morellomonicon (maybe a different item now but used to be morello) for spell vamp, gunblade for single target burst.

YumaS2Astral2 votes

{quoted}

It's also used in on-hit builds when the enemies don't have enough tanks to justify BOTRK, as well as most in-the-face-but-not-quite-assassin ap builds (like ap Bard) since they don't dive in- and out, so they need some sustain. I think they should re-split the item into what it used to be; morellomonicon (maybe a different item now but used to be morello) for spell vamp, gunblade for single target burst.

On-hit champions rarely build Gunblade because most of them don't actually scale well with hybrid stats. The ones that do, like Kog'Maw, and Varus, rarely build it, as they don't have room for it. And when against squishy teams, why not build Wit's End? It is cheaper, and gives them even more damage. It also has magic resistance, so it protects from possible enemies that have magic damage.

Jax can build it and is actually a fairly viable item for him, but most Jax have moved to the mid game centric Triforce + Titanic Hydra build.

TheWizardM2 votes

You always buy wit's end. I'm talking about replacing your BOTRK, not your wits end!

Also the item is absolutely amazing for offmeta builds.

YumaS2Astral2 votes

{quoted}

You always buy wit's end. I'm talking about replacing your BOTRK, not your wits end!

Even in that situation, those champions will rarely have time to build Hextech Gunblade. By the time they need to build this, the game is already over.

{quoted}

Also the item is absolutely amazing for offmeta builds.

Yes, but off-meta builds themselves would also benefit from the item spliting.

TheWizardM2 votes
  1. I would like to point out there aren't that many onhit items at all. If you were to buy every single one you would still have room for boots. Onhit builds are focussed on the lategame, so by picking them the game is over anyways.

  2. I agree.

YumaS2Astral2 votes

{quoted}

  1. I would like to point out there aren't that many onhit items at all. If you were to buy every single one you would still have room for boots. Onhit builds are focussed on the lategame, so by picking them the game is over anyways.

With the way on-hit builds (and champions) work currently, most of them are actually mid game focused, and compared to crit builds, they fall off late game (damage wise). If you want your champion to better scale late game, consider building crit instead. Save for a few exceptions such as Jax.

Pierce The Veal2 votes

What do you mean they don’t have room for it?

Runaan’s guinsoo’s, wits end, and then maybe botrk. Fifth item is a toss up based on what you need. And sustain is a legitimite need. And gunblade gives on hit champions, especially Kog’Maw and Kayle, a lot of damage AND sustain.

It can often be built third item to great success. But yes, it’s a rather late game item, in a meta where lategame doesn’t really exist.

Death by Glamour2 votes

The same as one of its main users Akali is she meant to be an assasin or a sustain diver.

Anu3isII2 votes

The problem is the huge base damage of the active, that resulted from the change of Revolver. The active has to cover both Revolver's Passive and Cutlass' Active in terms of Damage, which leads to a minimum of 150-225 base Damage (based on level).

The way I would change it is this: Change either Cutlass or Revolver from buildpath, with B.F Sword or Needlessly Large Rod. Lower the base damage accordingly and add an AD Ratio to the Active low enough to make Gunblade weaker when there is no other AD item, but high enough to make it better when building at least one big AD/Hybrid item.

While I find your idea rational, I believe that the Reworked GLP will fill that niche of an AP burst item. And I think removing the active from Gunblade is a mistake, as it adds that nice slow to your kit. Akali barely has a slow, Jax has only his stun, Kayle has one slow etc. Hybrid champions generally want to stick up with their opponents, while melting them.

YumaS2Astral2 votes

{quoted}

While I find your idea rational, I believe that the Reworked GLP will fill that niche of an AP burst item. And I think removing the active from Gunblade is a mistake, as it adds that nice slow to your kit. Akali barely has a slow, Jax has only his stun, Kayle has one slow etc. Hybrid champions generally want to stick up with their opponents, while melting them.

It is funny that you say that, because they are significantly lowering the damage from GLP in PBE.

Anu3isII1 votes

{quoted}

https://i.imgur.com/f4Kr1dJ.png

  • GLP has a few mechanics changes: Stops on first unit hit, increased range (200), longer slow duration, no cast time.

Link: https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/developer-corner/TaijPHAm-ap-itemization-on-pbe-84

They improved the ability a lot, now they nerf its number.

Many champions already rushed Morello. The AP items rework will basically force them to choose between Luden's or GLP if they want Damage early-mid game, or Archangel for scaling.

GLP, while not offering health sustain, offers all the things most Mages want: good amount of AP, lots of CDR and Mana, and on top of that, a burst tool that also slows. Compared to Morello, I think more people will like it.

And sure, the damage may not be high, but I doubt Riot will ever introduce a new item similar in power to DFG. The new Spellbinder item shows it imo.

Poske2 votes

Good Le blancs dont build gunblade. To bad globally even in challengers most of le blancs suck...

She has stronger secret burst builds

**You can remove gunblade from game. You wont influence my winrate at all yet I am lb Main since season1 **

Flawless Fetus9 votes

Just to clarify... it sounds like your claiming that your lb is better than most of the challenger ones. Is that right, or am I misinterpreting you?

Automated Riven6 votes

{quoted}

Just to clarify... it sounds like your claiming that your lb is better than most of the challenger ones. Is that right, or am I misinterpreting you?

He is. Everytime Leblanc comes up in conversation he pops in to say he is the best in the world.

Poske2 votes

You ll also notice a pattern. Ussualy they mention gunblade being core on Le blanc and I get triggered

Votable Jester1 votes

It looks to me like you build it on LB a fair amount yourself.

Poske2 votes

Oh no I built it in 25th minute while I was in base and my team was destroying a NEXUS ohmergerd

If you see me building Gb on LB I am being disrespectful

Capt Ahmad1 votes

Brother, you have a point. You are also sometimes "disrespectful" and I freaking love it! Jinx

(Proof) No. 1 LeBlanc on EUNE.OP.GG

You are ranked no. 1 LeBlanc in EUNE and I respect you for that, let the NA/EUW haters hate you for-freaking-ever!! ;) They will ONLY make you more famous, good job; well played!!!

Poske2 votes

You are understanding me correctly I was #1 lb world And its not most of the challengers its literaly every single one of them

Capt Ahmad1 votes

What do you think about this Challenger LB Main, isn't he better than you, my friend? 🤔

SociaI Justice3 votes

checks your math history, first game on top of the list is lb with gunblade, okay son

Poske2 votes

Game lasted 26 minutes. I bought gunblade in minute 25

IT WAS FOR shit and giggles...

My team got nexus before I used gunblade..

Capt Ahmad1 votes

You don't have to reply to your haters!

ahferroin72 votes

I still see a lot of Mordekaisers build gunblade and no other AD (though I've seen a number of people go Titanic Hydra on him on ARAM).

I see Gunblade all the damn time on Kayle when she's doing something other than support.

As far as Kog, it's more that BotRK is a better option in most cases than Gunblade unless you plan to mostly harass the enemy instead of regularly auto-attacking. TBH though, that's most of the reason nobody runs it on Tristana or Jax, BotRK is better on both of them in almost all cases.

Note that I do agree that it doesn't have a very solid identity, but I will contend it still is a niche build for a lot of champs and most of the reason it isn't seen more is that it's inferior to other things on most champs.

Blåbæret2 votes

Gunblade is fine. No need to create an issue which does not exist.

xxxMadLionxxx1 votes

it needs some CDR. That the main reason i never build it.

DeadUnborn1 votes

teemo loves hextech revolver, just saying

Iffy Jarl1 votes

I don't see why it can't be both the identity crisis of liandry was much worse than this

Meep Man1 votes

I consider it an AP Assassin item personally.

AnataBakka1 votes

i always build it late game on illaoi lol, love the hp regen

DunkmasterDennis1 votes

Diana also builds it sometimes Jax

Gear Jammer1 votes

On hit teemo guilds it

KennysDreamGirl1 votes

its broken is what it is

GodlyBane1 votes

i take gunblade on ekko, his E does 100% physical damage technically. since it is an auto attack it can do AD with just added AP and a teleport. i normally go gunblade + trinity + dark harvest and take 3/4 of ppls health bar ( i know this build sounds stupid, but it works if your ahead), plus the ultimates healing is stupid good with it.

jadelink1 votes

I thought it would be touched in the AP item update to be honest.

BakedLotion1 votes

Gunblade is popular on Ekko. It's one of the most popular builds and highest winrate

Gunblade is good on literally anyone that auto attacks in between rotations. The revolver is in no way bad on anybody, and the cutlass is meh, but can be useful if you auto.

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