Syndra got bufffs on pbe and still nothing for veigar and sona.

jjookkeerr·Aug 21, 2015·20 votes·1,575 views

dont get me wrong, i know syndra is not on a good spot and was in need of those buffs but veigar and sona are way worse than her.

Veigar now NEED to play passive and eat all poke of enemy laner because he dont have damage to retaliate and if he do this he will not farm his Q to try to acheive his late game fantasy, also he is useless against ad champions.

Sona is a different role role but we know she is not on a good spot, there are supports that poke better than her, sustain better than her, peel better than her ( ), she is in need of love.

73 Comments

Meep ManAug 21, 201510 votes

Veigar has an identity, play style issue. It is so heavily reliant on other players doing the work for him, you never feel, quoting GypsyLord on this one, SMART! If he was visually appealing that'd be one thing, but he isn't... at all. Sona... I dont know.

To summarize, Veigar needs more ways to feel smart to make plays and a visual update, Sona just seems weak currently, and Syndra got some cool buffs.

lB2kGRlc8yAug 21, 20152 votes

Veigar's just a 30% complete rework riot pushed out the second he hit bot lane. Someday we may get to see what the other 70% of his rework looks like.

LankPantsAug 22, 20151 votes

Sona... I dont know.

She needs another rework. The last on was trash and accomplished nothing.

NemeBroAug 21, 20157 votes

Downvote me all you want, Veigar and Sona are still in better spots than Syndra, and are in less need of buffs than her.

lB2kGRlc8yAug 21, 20151 votes

I remember the last time I saw Syndra she was oppressive as fuck and OHKO'd people from two towns away, then again, its been months since I've seen her. Even though I think Veigar's kit is incohesive and half-assed, Syndra does seem to be worse off atm.

CppLAug 21, 20153 votes

Cause veigar doesnt need buffs ,unlike syndra wich is garbage now.Usless against ad?? are you kidding me? i saw veigar 1 shoting adc with just ulti.

jjookkeerrAug 21, 20151 votes

pick veigar agianst zed/talon/yasuo and you will see

Penguin EclipseAug 21, 20155 votes

{quoted}

pick veigar agianst zed/talon/yasuo and you will see

He's not supposed to perform well against ad mids.

lB2kGRlc8yAug 21, 20152 votes

There are 2 mid laners he does well against, Veigar and Heimer. That's a pretty small list of actual lane opponents that are favorable for him. His biggest contributor are people who have the reflexes of snail statues and eat his W and E, since there's no reason a non-lobotomy patient should ever be hit by them.

PopePancakeAug 21, 20152 votes

{quoted}

pick veigar agianst zed/talon/yasuo and you will see

I mean, i've beaten yasuos, zeds, and whatnot before. (Im not the greatest Veigar player, either, but i've done it.)

Also, i dont think he needs a full on rework. All he really needs are small changes to everything and perhaps a new passive. Atleast that's my opinion.

jjookkeerrAug 21, 20153 votes

he needs his passive, what veigar need is a way reduction of delay on his W, remove the enemy aop ratio of his ult and buff his own

PopePancakeAug 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

he needs his passive, what veigar need is a way reduction of delay on his W, remove the enemy aop ratio of his ult and buff his own

yeah, Reduing W delay to 1 second would be nice.

With ult, removing the enemy AP raito might make him more feast or famine.

ArkenStormAug 21, 20151 votes

I agree, reduction to 1.0 or .75 even and he would be so much better all of a sudden

ArkenStormAug 21, 20151 votes

And I will see what? that I still kill them? I do this all of the time. Although I agree with a post(I don't remember where) that said remove the enemy AP scaling and bump his ult scaling to 1.4 AP

jjookkeerrAug 21, 20151 votes

1,4 is to low, his ult was 1,2 + 0,8 enemy ap before nerfs, losing 0,8 to buff 0,2 isnt worth

ArkenStormAug 21, 20151 votes

I think 1.4 is perfect for multiple reasons. One, honestly 1.0 or 1.4 doesn't matter when you have 1200 AP. Two, it will hit everyone very hard, instead of only AP mages. Maybe 1.5/1.6 but I think that's on the high end, maybe too high, but anything higher than those are definitely too high.

But if we wanted to make it fun, 2.0 AP ratio flat out. TAKE 3000 DAMAGE ERREBODY

jjookkeerrAug 22, 20151 votes

now his ult is 1.0 ap + 0,8 of enemy. before the nerf/rework was 1,2 + 0,8 and that time veigar was already considered weak, what made veigar somewhat good what his instant stun not his ult. losing 0,8 of enemy ap and increasing self ratio to 1.4 imo is not that worth, 1.5 would be fine since is his only reliable source of damage. Leblanc can Q+R for 1,4, if he use her W to proc the second part of her R will be 2,6 ap with an fast and almost undodgeable combo with low cd.

ArkenStormAug 22, 20151 votes

aight, but if a w delay reduction also happened, thats another 1.0 ap, and I hit it half the time anyway. idk 1.6 might be ok

jjookkeerrAug 22, 20152 votes

well, first the delay reduction need to happen

ArkenStormAug 22, 20151 votes

I agree. 1.0 or .75 second delay might even be good. possibly reduce base damage early with .75, but that would be awesome and make it actually a viable skill on its own.

lB2kGRlc8yAug 21, 20155 votes

Veigar thrives on enemy mistakes, if you had that happen, there were numerous fuckups in your game that led to it. R is his only reliable damage source, so naturally Veigar tries to make do with it, the issue is that if Vei got that much AP, the adc was a retard for not grabbing banshees.

Xotraz le sageAug 21, 20152 votes

And syndra can one shot AD with a R if she spam Q before... And she have a giant AOE Stun with R E. Or a normal stun and a slow.

And more mobility.

Since her release Syndra is nothing but a better Veigar.

Penguin EclipseAug 21, 20152 votes

[{quoted}](name=Xotraz le sage,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TZLGqlG7,comment-id=00040002,timestamp=2015-08-21T16:05:50.225+0000)

And syndra can one shot AD with a R if she spam Q before... And she have a giant AOE Stun with R E. Or a normal stun and a slow.

And more mobility.

Since her release Syndra is nothing but a better Veigar.

She has more mobility... how exactly? Her MS is even slower.

SirPacifistaAug 21, 20151 votes

Wow, SILVER I talking here. You saw something in one match so thats the standard? Jeah, AD soraka is op too, had a game where she made a penta!!! (hope you realise that she still isnt a viable carry or?)

think before you post shit

ArkenStormAug 22, 20151 votes

wow, somebody bringing rank into account where it doesn't even matter. Veigar will one-shot any adc anytime, unless they build banshees veil, then you press q and THEN r.

jjookkeerrAug 22, 20151 votes

you must uninstall if you are playing with an adc and veigar oneshot you

ArkenStormAug 23, 20151 votes

why? assuming this is lategame where everyone has full builds, assume that an adc has banshees veil instead of another damage item. I am also going to assume that veigar has built a void staff. a 1700 damage nuke will oneshot an ADC, unless they HAVE built banshees veil, then you have to use q. oh noes. tbh if you don't have 1200+ AP by the time you have full items, you're a bad Veigar. This will likely be at the 40/45 minute mark.

RatbertAug 23, 20151 votes

1200 ap by 30 is a pipe dream if the enemy knows how to play. Almost no one gets full build by 30 unless you play deathmatch instead of farming cs. If the enemy has banshees, and someone has locket, your ult won't deal 1700 damage without 1.5k+ ap.

ArkenStormAug 23, 20151 votes

Ok let me clarify some things. I just edited my original post, the "30/35" was a typo, should be 40/45. also no ADC should ever build locket ever, so IDK what that was supposed to bring into the equation. We are talking 1 on 1. Also It honestly doesn't matter either way if you Q+R instead of just R if it happens at the same time, which you will generally be doing anyway. That's still one-shotting.

(BTW love the name, Dilbert is one of my favorite comics)

RatbertAug 23, 20151 votes

Why are we talking one on one in a team game? The adc usually depends on the team for utility, which is why they can deal so much damage. Nearly any mage or assassin can burst down an adc solo anyways.

If the adc notices that they get one shot by a mage, wouldn't they build merc treads, veil and maybe scimitar to survive?

ArkenStormAug 23, 20151 votes

Maybe things are different in higher ranks, But I have never experienced an adc other than corki buy anything other than item 3006 , and people hardly ever buy item 3102 unless they are stupidly ahead. like 20 kills ahead. The reason it's a 1v1 scenario is that The point of the whole thing was basically "can veigar do enough damage to oneshot an ADC" even if you add locket, Void staff is still void staff, and oh noes Q+R. Like I said, that's still basically oneshotting.

RatbertAug 23, 20151 votes

Well usually, if you get to the point where a mage one shots you, you'd build mercs instead of zerkers and get veil, visage or even maw to survive. If you get locket and veil, that's already 75 mr. Void gets through maybe 40 of that, so there's still a sizable damage reduction there. Even vayne has 1900 hp at 18, so veigar would need about 1.8k ap to one shot vayne with those items.

ArkenStormAug 23, 20151 votes

I guess people are smarter in plat/diamond where you are then, because I have literally never seen any ADC build anything other than zerk greaves except for corki, and I rarely see people buying merc scimitar(its usually item 3153 item 3006 item 3031 item 3072 item 3087 item 3035 ) and I only see merc scimitar when I build it on Draven really, and almost nobody buys locket interestingly enough. in short, any ADC I play against dies to my Q+R combo instantly, and often just EQW(because that w is nearly as strong as your ult) and I can save my Q+R combo for other threats. The funniest is when vayne is chasing you and you E and she tumbles right into it. XD

RatbertAug 23, 20151 votes

No one builds locket now? Even when I was silver aegis was almost mandatory.

But yeah, cookie cutter builds don't tend to work the best here.

ArkenStormAug 23, 20151 votes

yeah it's really weird. I build it when I supp, but not usually until later because money :P

jjookkeerrAug 23, 20151 votes

item 3102 item 3156 item 3139 summoner 1

ArkenStormAug 23, 20151 votes

read my conversation with ratbert below. Basically I have never seen any ADC ever build all of those items, rarely do I even see one of those, also it's 99% of the time summoner 4 summoner 7

BooriinAug 21, 20153 votes

I think Riot have bigger plans for Sona and Zyra (poke supports as well-Karma got few love) so their updates may come out later.

Sona and Zyra mains made some threads about those two and they caught RiotRepertoir's attentions

http://www.surrenderat20.net/2015/08/red-post-collection-817-update.html

Debunking this. Zyra will not be receiving a rework (or at least not for quite some time) - though she is getting changes in 5.17. I don't have any details to share with you about those, but they most definitely will not be close to a 'rework'."

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/YfqXUJKM-as-a-support-main-can-we-buff-sona?show=flat&comment=001400050000

About Sona

Currently she has to build AP, everything scales off of it. She has no utility floor, and her abilities are all balanced on the fact that she must build AP, because when they weren't, she could build pure AP and get massive damage and utility at the same time. There is no differentiation between her mage spell damage playstyle and her utility support playstyle as they both need the same stats, so building for one builds for both.

**RiotRepertoir : **Yeah, this is something I've read quite a few times now as well, about her baseline effectiveness being too low before items. There may be something to that, as this could be a pretty limiting disadvantage relative to other supports, especially when behind.

lB2kGRlc8yAug 21, 20152 votes

Were you able to find red posts about Veigar? I certainly couldn't. They seem to dance around the elephant in the room and only discuss cosmetics like his "role" or adding size scaling to his ult.

BooriinAug 21, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Were you able to find red posts about Veigar? I certainly couldn't. They seem to dance around the elephant in the room and only discuss cosmetics like his "role" or adding size scaling to his ult.

I only care about Sona and follow her threads

But it is easy to use Search function

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/xLYmdfnE-event-horizon-buff?comment=00070000

{quoted}

I do see this, and I hope we can ultimately give some love to Veigar. I've seen quite a few Veigar threads that range from buffs to compromises to skill changes to identity shifts/affirmations, and I honestly don't know what the exact solution is. It probably makes sense to everyone that we shouldn't just try to do them all. If/when we do something for Veigar, I'd like it to be the right thing.

I don't really have a solution or any good news on this front right now, but it is something I would like to address.

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/Jbg9ZfIc-riot-why-wasnt-veigar-hotfixed-on-his-relaunch?comment=0002

{quoted}

If we released those Veigar change today and he came out at 38% we'd at the least talk about hotfixing. At the time we were taking more of a wait and see stance when it came to reworks and new champions that went out extremely weak. We've since been looking at whether we're better off acting more quickly, and then following up as needed. That approach potentially gets a champion to the right spot quicker, though does come with some risk of overbuffing given we won't have a good handle on a champion's average learning curve or optimal playstyle yet. Hotfixes also have a risk associated with them (making changes in the game with less testing time, patching servers while games are being played on them), so even with changes we know we want to make it's often not appropriate to hotfix.

manbearswineAug 21, 20153 votes

You need to understand that unless you are an #lcsbigplays champion you get only winrate balancing,it doesn't matter if the champion is considered shit by anyone who used to play him,or high elos,or everyone who mains that role.

If it's not one of riot's favored and he's above 50% winrate he's getting shit,syndra is way below 50% atm,sona isn't,veigar is so I guess he might get something at some point in time,but he has a higher winrate than syndra,riot doesn't have the time to look deeply into the state of champions who aren't flashy,all they get is winrate balancing.

NemeBroAug 21, 20152 votes

{quoted}

dont get me wrong, i know syndra is not on a good spot and was in need of those buffs but veigar and sona are way worse than her.

http://champion.gg/champion/Veigar

http://champion.gg/champion/Sona

http://champion.gg/champion/Syndra

Seems legit.

CrettAug 21, 20151 votes

it's never been an issue of his power level -- riot made sure of that. his overall feel has been changed. he feels clunky because his crutch, E, has been made unreliable, which in turn makes his burst pattern unreliable it is awkward even to defend yourself as him, especially against champs like zed, talon, katarina

he needs changes to his kit as a whole. his E should be just one of the tools he can employ, not an unreliable crutch he cowers behind

NemeBroAug 21, 20154 votes

{quoted}

it's never been an issue of his power level -- riot made sure of that. his overall feel has been changed. he feels clunky because his crutch, E, has been made unreliable, which in turn makes his burst pattern unreliable it is awkward even to defend yourself as him, especially against champs like zed, talon, katarina

Compared to the champion who needs to use two abilities for a smaller stun and requires setting your balls on the field painstakingly to access her burst, compared to someone who just presses the R button.

I'm not saying Veigar is in an amazing spot or is all right in his current state, but the notion that he should be buffed because he is "way worse" than Syndra is founded on a faulty premise.

CrettAug 21, 20153 votes

that is true. syndra has been in the gutter for a while now, longer than veigar

IntelligentSpudAug 21, 20152 votes

Viegar... Has no damage?...Really?... That is the most nonsense thing i've heard. His q, if he kills winions with his q or any champ, he gets permanent bonus ap. Heck that ult, does Huge damage, +80% of his unlimited ap, + a % of the opponents ap. and he can easily if the player knows how to veig right, and he can easily one hit KO ad champs. Believe me i've done it.

And Sona, not in a good spot, really? Sona is a very powerful support if played correctly (which isn't to hard) and tho she don't have some of the good things of other champs, the aura and ult allowx for great teamfight ability, which is something you have failed to include in either of your descriptions. Also, sligtly off topic, Sona has enough love now due to DJ sona Ultimate Skin.

lB2kGRlc8yAug 21, 20154 votes

You haven't even mentioned how 30% of his damage comes from his W, which will never land so long as the target has functioning brain cells left. I've played roflstomp games as new Veigar as well, and the unifying theme of those games is incompetent enemies.