Hyper carry early games need serious nerfs

Lugg·Sep 4, 2016·4 votes·1,110 views

The entire concept behind hyper carry champions is that they are high risk, high reward. Currently, they are low-medium, risk and VERY high reward.

etc, all have pretty good to even great early games or they are very safe. So these champs either need to lose hyper carry status or have their early games VERY weak.

Kog and Jinx are great examples. With the proper support, these champs supposed weaknesses early are basically covered up. When you pick a hyper carry, it should basically be fact that you are going to lose lane and will contribute later in the game. The challenge being that you can stay in the game long enough for that to happen. That isn't the case at all right now.

On a similar note, a lot of the early game champs don't fall off until really late game if at all. Once again, there is little to no trade off for picking them.

This is one of the biggest problems with the game right now.

65 Comments

Mr Broken WingsSep 4, 20166 votes

rivens earlygame is pretty trash, has the weakest level 1, has a spike at 3 but besides that she is pretty fucked if the enemy gets an early chainwest. She also isnt a hypercarry, she is midgame like irelia. Fizz hyper carry, all my lulz. Git gud ~

cinomenapplebaeSep 4, 20162 votes

She basically has to take ignite if she wants to win 1v1's before 6

Mr Broken WingsSep 4, 20162 votes

{quoted}

She basically has to take ignite if she wants to win 1v1's before 6

exhaust is better

LuggSep 4, 20161 votes

What's wrong with taking Ignite?

cinomenapplebaeSep 4, 20163 votes

removes alot of map control that you could ahve by taking tp

Jinzo TorranceSep 4, 20161 votes

Weakest level 1? She has the most the damage output at level 1 with her Q AA combo, are you for real?

Mr Broken WingsSep 4, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Weakest level 1? She has the most the damage output at level 1 with her Q AA combo, are you for real?

No she doesnt, 10 basedamage ability at level 1. Also you need to effectivly aa 3 times to get her combo off, at level 1 with minions its not useful at all. Rengars q does more, doesnt aggro minions and can be chained to oneshot people at level 1 for example, rivens level 1 is pretty shitty compared to most toplaners like trundle yasuo fiora, gp. There is a reason why riven loses lane in most matchups earlygame if the enemy isnt retarded, and its not because her early is strong.

RevaliSep 12, 20161 votes

Illaoi's lvl 1 is pretty bad aswell.

LuggSep 4, 20162 votes

So Riven is weak for a whole 2 minutes of the game.

Mr Broken WingsSep 4, 20162 votes

{quoted}

So Riven is weak for a whole 2 minutes of the game.

Lets be honest, you never faced a decent riven , you cant even argue about her strenghts here. She has obvious weaknesses ( more then other toplaner because of her squishiness and her predictable playstyle) but hey, you dont know ANYTHING about that champ but make stupid threads about her being a hypercarry. Its okay to be wrong but being so insistent with your wrong opinions is anoying.

LuggSep 4, 20162 votes

If we are being honest, I've probably faced Riven more times than you have played her. I know EXACTLY what I'm talking about with her.

I really laughed hard when you said she was squishy. She has one of the very best shields in the entire game. It also doesn't matter that she is predictable, she does AoE damage with 2 hard CCs.

How do you not consider her a hyper carry when she can literally 1v5 pentakill teams when ahead?

AstôlfoSep 4, 20162 votes

mmk buddy, please, tell me how much you know. So far, what you've said shows you know very little, if anything. Cry more.

Um. She is incredibly squishy. Her shield doesn't really help if you just CC her and kill her anyways.

Gee, maybe because she's entirely melee range and she has a very small AoE range outside of her ultimate which is only really good as an execute on low health targets? Meaning she has to go right into them to do that? And any half-assed intelligent team would just CC her the moment she tries some shit and kill her.

LuggSep 6, 20162 votes

Ok, I can give you an example of how "squishy" Riven is. Had a game where she was ahead (4-5 kills) and doing well since our top laner absolutely sucked. She tower dove THREE of us fought all 3 of us under tower while taking SIX tower shots and still didn't die. A fed Sion would have trouble not dying from 6 shots and 3 people attacking him. Any champ that can pull off something like that, no matter how fed, is definitely not squishy.

Also, her ult is more than just her ranged execute. She gets 15 seconds of +20% bonus AD, increased range on all her attacks, plus the wind slash. This is basically god mode for a melee champ, not even counting the insane mobility, stun, and shield she has.

By the way, the "just CC her and kill her" thing works on any champ. So that doesn't count as a weakness at all.

AstôlfoSep 6, 20162 votes

First of all, the first part is a flat-out lie and/or overexaggeration. Second of all, if she got even close to that, you and your entire team is garbage, which renders your argument worthless.

Second of all, that's still entirely melee range and all extremely short range AoE except for the ult. Range is a thing. CC is a thing.

Third, yes, it technically applies to any champion. But your argument is still flawed and invalid. You're not going to kill a 4500 health something full tank by yourself with CC. It'll still take a full team probably, and/or a ridiculously fed ADC quite a while. Someone squishy will die near instantly if they actually get hit by CC because they will only have like 1500-2000 health and close to no resistances if at all.

LuggSep 8, 20161 votes

No lies. No exaggerations. Just plain facts that you just won't accept because it renders your entire argument invalid. Riven's shield scales with her AD, so of course it's very strong once she gets a couple items.

We even CC'd her during that exchange but she still survived. That's pretty ridiculous by any standard.

Lastly, why would you CC the tank instead of the carries??? That is why you focus carries, to take them out before they take your team out. Tanks should always be focused last since it takes a bit to finish them off. Any fight were you focus a tank, you will probably lose 90% of the time since their carries will kill your team before you can finish them off. That's League 101.

AstôlfoSep 8, 20162 votes

mmk bud.

She's not going to be making a shield if she's CC'd. If she has no shield, she's going to have like, what, 2000-2500 health at maximum come late game. That's practically nothing.

Also I never said you'd CC a tank. But you said CC works on any champ. Which it does, but it doesn't all have the same benefit. Of course you'd CC the carry. So you trying to say "So that doesn't count as a weakness at all." is 100% incorrect.

LuggSep 9, 20161 votes

Let me spell it out for you.

Champ A has obvious strengths and weaknesses. They scale evenly, have resources to manage, and have ways to counter even when they are ahead.

Champ B has a lot of strengths, but their weaknesses are hard to exploit due to the nature of their kit. They snowball very hard, don't really fall off at any point, have no resource to manage, and is pretty much impossible to counter when they get ahead.

Both can be CC'd and killed if focused.

Ok, which champ would you pick?

B of course. That champion has way more options and shares the same major weakness as the other champ while just being stronger due to their kit.

AstôlfoSep 9, 20161 votes

Actually no.

I would pick A in the majority of cases because the conveniently biased phrasing for B only applies to players who are extremely, ridiculously skilled on her. And there are very few players that good. And for like the entire rest of the playerbase who is ass at playing her, they'd do even worse.

LuggSep 9, 20161 votes

See, that is another point. Just because a champ is harder to master doesn't mean they should just be stronger because of that.

I always hate hearing that about Zed, Yas, LB, etc. Their kits and mobility automatically give them the ability to outplay opponents. They don't need anything extra to win fights.

Riven's kit has great mobility, you can't escape her or catch her unless you are playing one of about 4-5 champs in the game. She does great damage that is is also AoE, so she kills everyone at the same time if they are anywhere near her. She has two hard CC's, how many other carries have that? She has no resource at all to manage, so she doesn't have to leave lane unless she needs health. Plus she has a shield that gets stronger just through her normal build path.

Her only real weakness is CDs and being melee. Her strengths WAY outweigh her weaknesses.

AstôlfoSep 9, 20161 votes

'Just because a champ is harder to master doesn't mean they should just be stronger because of that.' Incorrect. That is the entire point of high skillcap champions. That is why there are low skillfloor/cap champions which are easy enough to pick up and master and do very well at. That is also why there are very high skillfloor/cap champions which let better players actually do better beyond the small limited cap they'd hit with the former group of champions. In return, they're a lot worse without experience, but are better with experience. Also none of the high skillcap champions are broken, so your point is invalid either way.

mmk.

You don't have a clue on what you're talking about so I won't bother anymore.

LuggSep 12, 20161 votes

You are COMPLETELY wrong about everything in this post. Why would ANYONE pick any champ other than high skillcap champs then? They wouldn't. That's why they need to be balanced just like any other champ. Champs like Zed, LB, Ekko, etc just naturally have amazing outplay from their abilities alone. Saying that none of the high skillcap champs aren't broken is either extremely naive, or extremely dumb. They are OP naturally just from the nature of their kits. How can you not see this?

AstôlfoSep 12, 20161 votes

mmk buddy.

Gee, because to play said champ, they take an immense amount of specific knowledge and skill in one or more aspects and a solid foundation of base knowledge in general? The only people who'd even be able to play said champion actually well are people at high Plat/Dia+ level, where they'd be against other players of a similar level who know how to actually deal with said champ instead of just crying and whining like a certain thread creator. Anyone below that level would not be as good, if at all, at said champion, meaning people playing simpler champions could probably kick their ass due to the fact that the other player will fail at even playing them correctly.

Zed/LB/AP Ekko/etc are all perfectly fine and balanced. Saying that ANY high skillcap champions are broken is either extremely delusional or extremely dumb. They are all extremely balanced around the nature of their kits. How can you not see this?

I honestly don't know what to tell you kid. Go buy some Kleenex? Learn how to play against them instead of QQing? But you seem to have a problem using logic, so I won't ask something that hard of you.

MarshbouySep 4, 20164 votes

Please tell me this is a troll.

EndlessSorcererSep 4, 20165 votes

Never attribute to malice that which can be adequately explained by stupidity

MarshbouySep 4, 20164 votes

I dunno man, he might not be trolling, but riven? Hypercarry? What?

AstôlfoSep 4, 20164 votes

LMFAO.

listing azir listing cass listing ez listing fizz listing jinx listing kass listing master yi listing orianna listing riven listing trist listing tf listing vayne listing kog listing veigar listing viktor

cry more

LuggSep 4, 20161 votes

You just grief because you have no intelligent response at all to counter what I said.

AstôlfoSep 4, 20162 votes

mmk buddy, cry more. your delusions are hilarious. thanks for being the laughingstock, I really appreciate it. :)

LuggSep 4, 20161 votes

Thanks for continuing to prove me right.

You have NEVER had an intelligent response to any of my threads trying to convince me that I'm wrong and you are right. This just proves that i'm right every time.

AstôlfoSep 4, 20161 votes

mmk buddy, cry more. Meanwhile, I'll just continue to laugh at your complete ignorance of this game. Quite a large chunk of the champions you've listed are not hypercarries. Quite another large chunk of the champions you've listed have average or even bad or even absolutely horrendous early games. Come back once you're off the influence. Then we can talk about this.

LuggSep 6, 20161 votes

Please list who you think isn't a hyper carry and why.

AstôlfoSep 6, 20161 votes

champion.gg op.gg leagueofgraphs

Take your pick.

LuggSep 8, 20161 votes

And none of those list who is a hyper carry and why.

Once again, you provide nothing of value on these boards.

AstôlfoSep 8, 20161 votes

The irony of something like you talking down to others is cute.

If you had maybe a few brain cells to rub together, you'd realize that they all have Winrate/Gamelength charts. Low early into a high late is trademark of a hypercarry. And then you realize, oh right, most of the champions I've listed aren't hypercarries.

LuggSep 9, 20161 votes

OMFG. You are actually accusing me of talking down after all of your posts. You have to be kidding. You must be delusional.

As for the stats, a hyper carry SHOULD have low early and high late. However, you will see that a lot of the high late games don't have low early games. This this is the entire point I have been making.

AstôlfoSep 9, 20161 votes

mmk bud.

Rock MDSep 12, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Please list who you think isn't a hyper carry and why.

Ez, TF, Fizz, Yasuo.

Only one that has an arguably amazing late-game is Yasuo, but he trades that off by being fairly easy to gank and having to put him in danger to output damage. Bruiser got wrecked so that's not a viable counterpoint anymore.

The rest of them are mid-game champs that you oddly think will carry everything late-game. That's simply not true because they have to make stuff happen while skirmishing or their blatant weaknesses (Ez's low damage output in teamfights, Fizz's inability to teamfight, TF's low teamfight DPS and lack of ability to 1v5 the way a real hypercarry does) will catch up to them and they lose.

LuggSep 12, 20161 votes

Ezreal does great damage once he completes item 3042 , TF does insane damage mid and late, Fizz does stupid damage all game long, and Yas is awesome as well. If you don't know that, then you are either uniformed, or you need to share whatever you're smoking.

Saying Bruiser Yas got wrecked is pretty funny. It's still the best build on him.

Rock MDSep 12, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Ezreal does great damage once he completes , TF does insane damage mid and late, Fizz does stupid damage all game long, and Yas is awesome as well. If you don't know that, then you are either uniformed, or you need to share whatever you're smoking.

Saying Bruiser Yas got wrecked is pretty funny. It's still the best build on him.

Ezreal has comparatively low DPS. Play Caitlyn vs. Ezreal properly and you will watch her bully him, outscale, and then DPS so much harder than him it's disgusting.

Same with Twisted Fate, he has decent damage but since his kill combo is all from about 525 range he has difficulty bursting down squishies so until then he has to backline and his damage/CC doesn't dumpster tanks the way a Viktor or Cassiopeia will.

As for Fizz he's just straight up not a hypercarry. If you have the faintest idea how to stay with your team and avoid him jumping your dick you can isolate and zone him from fights or outright kill him.

As for Yasuo, I'll give you this he's the only one with teamfight potential, but to say he's got no weaknesses as a champion is pretty bullshit.

Best Kog NASep 4, 20163 votes

You're telling me that KogMaw needs an early game nerf? Hell no.

LuggSep 4, 20161 votes

He probably does the most damage in the game late, so he should have the worst early game.

AstôlfoSep 4, 20162 votes

Um. His early is garbage, what are you smoking?

LuggSep 6, 20161 votes

He does have one of the weaker early games, but it isn't horrible by any stretch of the imagination. His early game is probably better than Twitch. You just farm with him until you get a couple items and then you are good to go.

Milodic MellodiSep 8, 20162 votes

So what you're saying is "He doesn't have the worst early game out of every single Champ EVER, let's gut him until he can't even get farm". I'm sorry what.

LuggSep 9, 20161 votes

Well if you want real balance, then he probably should have the worst early game since he probably has the strongest late game.

Milodic MellodiSep 8, 20162 votes

Azir High risk, low damage early game. Late game, high reward due to having lots of mobility and great AP damage potential with his soldiers Ezreal Medium risk, low damage early game. Late game, high reward due to being able to spam abilities...though you have to build mana to get the most out of it Fizz Overpowered as hell, W has hidden damage with HUGE AP. He's bullshit, but he's also getting a rework soon, so... Gangplank Was nerfed. Jinx Medium-low risk because of high damage early game, but reward late game depends on how you play; her kit relies on her getting kills and snowballing on them, she finds it harder than most champs to come back from getting shut down. Tristana Relies on poking early game, mobility has high cooldown, so high risk, but very high reward because she's just so versatile and awesome. She's my favorite champ and she plays the Assassin AND Marksman classes very well, not to mention her kit is made around taking down towers like a boss. Still, going and saying she's overpowered...HAHAHAHA TwistedFate Can't start fights unless he stuns, and has kind of low damage early game while also not having reliable mobility; late game, his Ult gives him a semi-Teleport so he's a great ganker...but he really relies on his teammates unless his opponent can't play around him. Vayne Low risk due to high damage and good mobility, but has very short range and gets shut down by high-range Champs like Caitlyn, Jinx, and Tristana. I find it really easy to play against Vayne because of this, but I also don't really do anything but Tristana when I do bot lane so... KogMaw No mobility in exchange for high amounts of continuous damage. Really weak to CC and becomes a liability when he can't shoot. Veigar No mobility in exchange for high damage. His abilities cost a lot of mana and he has a weak early game, your gameplay revolves around hitting your abilities on your opponents so you're forced to be a one-trick pony with him. Yasuo High mobility and high range for a melee champ, and has a good assortment of abilities to help his laning phase, but like some of these champs above...he's a ONE-TRICK PONY, with a bad laning phase against a large amount of champs to boot. You can rank up whichever abilities or buy into CDR or whatever all you like, his gameplay revolves around getting 2 Qs, then doing a 3rd Q and Ulting while you're being the inattentive little twat you are. His shield is easy to pop, his W has a high cooldown and is useless against pretty much every melee champ, his E relies on having opponent units to use on, and he can't use his Ult unless he fulfills his Q objective. Seriously, just play around him...if you can't bother to try playing around Yasuo just ask for a gank and farm on minions when he leaves lane. Try staying out of his Q and E ranges for starters, and just go ham on him when HE'S out of position or fumbles.

LuggSep 9, 20161 votes

Azir isn't high risk at all early. He can out poke most opponents and his mobility makes him very hard to gank.

Ez is probably the safest ADC in the game. So his risk is very low. He does need his first item to do damage, but that's pretty minor since he scales very well.

GP was nerfed, but not where he needed it. His barrels have been grossly OP since the rework. You can still argue that he's the strongest champ in the game even after the nerfs.

Jinx can comeback very easily since all she needs are items. She can be 0/6 and still penta.

Are you saying Tris isn't a hyper carry. Alrighty then.....

TF puts out good/great damage at all stages of the game. He relies on teammates just as much as any carry.

Vayne can be bullied by the champs you listed, but that's it. She wrecks everyone else and still kills the champs you listed late game.

Kog HAS to be focused down first every fight or you automatically lose the fight. That is why comps are built purely to keep him safe.

Veig doesn't need mobility since he has a low CD AoE stun. I kind of agree his is a one trick pony, but it's an insanely powerful trick. He can one shot any carry late no problem at all.

Yas is not a one trick pony at all. His kit is way to loaded for that. He has an answer to basically any opponent he faces.

Milodic MellodiSep 11, 20162 votes

Early game, Azir is high risk because of how much mana he uses. True he does have a lot of poke with his AA and W, but his AAs are terribly weak and his abilities suck up mana like a sponge. Ezreal is very safe, that's why he has such low damage. His E sucks up a lot of mana though, which is why I said medium risk because his disengage/engage doesn't let him back into a fight easily and has a mildy high cooldown. I will agree on Gangplank. I'll also not argue on Jinx, since I've seen those kinds of comebacks happen from her. I didn't say Tristana isn't a hypercarry. Almost all Marksman Champs are effective at taking towers down, she's just more capable than them because of her Q/E combo, and because she has a high range due to her passive she has an easier Early Game than a lot of other Marksmen. Most Carries also have good engage/disengage abilities, TF doesn't. I should have said more on how much he needs his stun. Vayne's terrible at coming back from losses unless she roams and feeds on other champs. Which is entirely possible, she is a strong champ. I just find it easy to play against her because she's predictable in her playstyle. I don't think you disagreed with me on Kog'Maw. I won't disagree on Veigar, but Yasuo is kind of linear in how he plays. He still relies on his Q for damage output (other than AA while he pokes with Q), E for engage/disengage, W to limit how much damage he takes (because unless he builds Tank he's about as fragile as a Marksman Carry), and his R still relies on how well he can use his Q. You can use these in different ways but he's still going to be doing practically the same thing overall with his abilities (although with his recent nerf the gap in his damage output on Critsuo vs Tanksuo will be pretty big, so I could be wrong).

AstôlfoSep 12, 20161 votes

Why bother? Lugg is trolling.

Milodic MellodiSep 13, 20161 votes

I wouldn't say he is. He provided well-thought facts, and I'm debating his own with mine.