Why do you feel obligated to associate "strong" with "no skill"?

Lucky·Jul 28, 2015·7 votes·658 views

Like every time I see champ qq I'm guaranteed to see 'this champ is so ez faceroll lol' along with it

17 Comments

Dr PoroJul 28, 20154 votes

Because strong champions means that even if you make mistakes, you'll still do well. For example AP Ezreal. He's always been viable (most of the time), but with Runeglaive he became so strong that even if you mess up half the time, you still perform above average. It doesn't mean that the skill cap is lowered. It means that the threshold of the minimum required skill to perform well is lowered.

That's just an explanation, I'm not a fan of calling champs "no skill" either.

LaceUp23Jul 28, 20153 votes

They probably say it because the champ is so strong that they don't really take skill to play well. Kind of self explanatory. It's like saying you are good at Madden when you pick the Seahawks.

S H A Y C 0Jul 28, 20152 votes

To play devil's advocate here.

Please explain in what way champions like Tryndamere would require "skill"

Take all the time you like.

HaIlMonitorJul 28, 20152 votes

I think he/she means more on the lines of Ahri who has to land charm to get kills unless really fed. But when people lose to her sit there and say "Herpa Derp you play ez champs so noob"

CaythelesJul 29, 20151 votes

{quoted}

I think he/she means more on the lines of who has to land charm to get kills unless really fed. But when people lose to her sit there and say "Herpa Derp you play ez champs so noob"

With the new Buffs Ahri doesnt need to land any of her skillshots. She is Quite powerful just by hitting Lvl 6 with a ludens echo. Not hating on Ahri but ive had my fair share of Her missing her Charm and Orb and still dishing out insane Damage in lane.

VekknaJul 29, 20152 votes

If you have no MR by the time she builds a Luden's and boots, then you deserved to die, tbh. That's the only way she's pulling that off. Also, a Luden's by level 6 means somebody (probably you) fed her.

I hate Ahri's guts, but she's one of the more balanced assassins.

ElJanitorFrankJul 28, 20155 votes

Tryndamere is a bad example, he has a high skill ceiling.

Obviously managing your rage is important, you don't want to be too low, but you need the crits to trade well.

When you go into a fight, you need to have extremely good timing on his ult. I see people ult before they even go into the fight, which is horrible. It lasts 5 seconds and they just wasted 3.

You need to know how to use his skills. Don't E into your opponent and trade, walk up and trade until you crit, then E away so you deal the damage and distance yourself, etc.

Tryndamere is one of those champions like Master Yi. They are known for being easy, but so very few people recognize their difficult aspects.

S H A Y C 0Jul 29, 20153 votes

he has a high skill ceiling.

Excuse me for not being very articulate here, but... HUH???

ElJanitorFrankJul 29, 20152 votes

I just explained a few of the reasons why...

Go ahead an look up 'Hao Tryndamere' (Hao being the player)

He's a Diamond (? At least diamond, I don't follow him in any way) Tryndamere main (Or used to be, again, I haven't watched anything of his recently) and he goes through a lot of the small stuff regarding Tryndamere.

Just don't pick the first video on youtube, because that's just him feeding a lot to Teemo.

S H A Y C 0Jul 29, 20151 votes

ok, so i typed a semi long and very sarcastic and moderately witty retort...then i decided it would be the wrong response, as you were being patient and cordial.

I hear what you're saying.

But mechanically, tryndamere is VERY simplistic. There is barely one dimension to him, and you dont have to keep track of much. You mentioned managing his rage bar....well there isn't much managing. it increases on its own, and you want it full when you wail on peoples faces and when you consume for hp...thats all there is. Gnar's rage bar is much more complex then that, and far more damaging to your laning phase and team play if managed incorectly, so much to the point where he becomes a very ineffective champion.

You mentioned a high ceiling..well you forgot the very very very very low floor. It requires very little aptitude to be effective with tryndamere. His ult is a low skill noob fail safe "for emergencies break glass" button that literally prevents death.

Now, does every champion have some micro mechanics and nuances that when executed correctly raise the power level of the champion? YES. But in everything, especially skill, it is a relative concept. Meaning that it only has value when compared to something else. Example, a 5 year old could seem really smart and learn things quickly....when compared to his peers he is just average. So when we talk about low skill champions we are comparing them to the other ones. Lee Sin is the shining start of high skill caps, you cant pick up lee sin and be amazing. You cant even pick up lee sin and be reasonable without a decent amount of practice and some studying of his kit on lolwiki. So he has a much higher floor, and once you understand him, a much higher ceiling. So tryndamere appears to be a low skill champion. To be honest, he was designed for entry level players just like warwick, garen, and ashe.

ElJanitorFrankJul 29, 20151 votes

I know he has a very low skill floor, it's what he's known best at.

But you don't seem to know anything about high level Tryndamere play, because he does in fact have a very high skill ceiling.

I didn't think he did, either, until I looked up higher level Tryndamere play.

I might even argue he has a higher ceiling than Lee Sin. The more complicated things you have to do with Lee Sin to be above average are things you don't need to do often, like; Ward hop behind + kick into friendly team. That takes a lot of mechanical practice to pull off, yes, but you will only do it a couple of times per game. The mechanical nuances of Tryndamere can be every single auto attack, cancelling autos constantly if they are or aren't crits so your crit chance is higher, using your E after you get a crit on the enemy laner to escape and do damage at the same time, etc.

And I think Trynds rage management is a lot more irritating than Gnar, because you have to push the wave or be at a trading disadvantage.

AlljoyJul 28, 20151 votes

Because Sour Grape Syndrome.

Knight SoIaire Jul 28, 20151 votes

that actualy has more sence than you think

the strenght of your champions is what dictates the effort you need to put into winning with it

if your enemy deals 500 damage and you deal only 300 ... that means that you need to dodge 201 while not missing any of yours to be on top

if your champion is stronger you need to work less thus the game gets easier for you

thats also the base of counterpicking ... you pick a champion stronger than the one your opponent took to have an easier time

but hwen it comes to ballance it gets a little vague ... since a champion who has too much power gets to have easier games owerall while he still has an easier and harder matchups

owerall we are playing on vague terms here ... but its a fact that when a champion is op you need less effort to win a game

EndlessSorcererJul 29, 20151 votes

Some people just refuse to admit that the other player was better.

FarRockBFJul 29, 20151 votes

Ridiculous thread.

Strong + Skill: LeeSin Leblanc Zed etc.

Strong + No Skill: Katarina Riven etc.

Strong + Skill = Strong champion if player is skilled enough to manage energy/mana and hit skill shots will nearly always win.

Strong + No Skill = Strong champion. No mana restraints. Can literally smash face in keyboard and only good things will happen.

VekknaJul 29, 20151 votes

This whole game is built around snowballing. Strong champs snowball faster by getting more reliable kills. The kills are reliable because they're easier to get, not because there are a miraculous number of excellent players using that champ.

There are some pretty basic aspects of skill in this game: skillshots, resource management, positioning, trading, securing kills, and survival. Most of the strong champs reduce or completely eliminate skill requirements for one or more of these categories.

Let's take skillshots for example on two strong champs. Morgana Q has a ridiculously large hitbox, quick missile speed, and very long duration. Blitzcrank has a ridiculously long range and fast speed. It's easier to get kills with Morgana root than any other root-based support. It's easier to get kills with than any other hook-based support. They're strong because they're easier, not because of their Challenger-only skillcap.

Another consistent theme with "easy" champs is that they can teleport, dash, vanish, or spawn decoys. MonkeyKing is objectively easier to do well with than a similar fighter who can't compensate for bad plays with an obscene amount of disengage. In other words, bad players can make mistakes and not pay for them as harshly as they should. Ekko Ezreal Fizz Leblanc LeeSin

For trading there are a few obvious standout examples. Riven Fizz Yasuo MasterYi Chogath will win every single trade by either blocking damage with a shield, dashing away too quickly to retaliate, or trivializing harass through ridiculous self-healing. The worst offenders ( Riven Yasuo ) shield while dashing or enjoy the convenience of a passive shield that requires exactly zero skill.

Resource management is another big factor. Lane sustain is objectively harder on mana-reliant champs. Katarina Renekton Tryndamere Rumble Vladimir Zed Yasuo have never had to leave lane because they were oom. Compare that to champs who have to micromanage their resource and spend thousands of gold to even be able to reliably attack the enemy: Cassiopeia Lux Syndra Zyra Malzahar Anivia Orianna or champs whose damage does not allow for mana items but who are still mana starved for the majority of games: Diana Elise Irelia Ahri Morgana

Sorry, but it's objectively easier to get an xp advantage and stay alive when you only have to worry about hp pots, can ignore resources, and can afford to rush damage and defense without worrying about being useless for minutes at a time.