Boards›Gameplay

can someone explain to me why marksmen are getting items and runes that frontload a bunch of damage?

Critmaster Garen··57 votes·14,889 views

as much as i want to try stormrazor on garen, this is practically designed like an assassin item with guaranteed crits on the first auto attack in a fight (which means guaranteed stattic/rapid fire crits).

hail of blades is a new keystone that grants up to 100% attack speed and allows to exceed the attack speed cap on the first 3 auto attacks in a fight.

item 3087 was originally introduced as a waveclear option for marksmen. riot made multiple different zeal items to diversify marksmen itemization and give them the option to CHOSE between waveclear (shiv), poke (rapid fire), duelling (phantom dancers), and multi-target damage/on-hit effects (hurricane), so they dont just build the same item 3031 item 3046 item 3072 every single game on every single marksman.

this idea of zeal item build diversity went to shit, when marksmen just started stacking the damn things, because theyre dirt cheap and grant absurd scaling when stacked on each other. shiv+rapid fire became so strong when they were allowed to stack, that this combination also crowded out the rest of these items.

meddler also just recently redefined item 3087 role as a burst item against champions instead of a waveclear item. question is again, why?

one of the most critisized aspects of marksmen for a year and a half, is that they basically turned into ranged assassins. the entire itemization rework is supposed to serve the purpose of directing them back into the role of sustained damage, instead of frontloaded burst, or burst per second. so why is marksman burst removed on one end by reworking infinity edge, and readded in other spots with stormrazor and the new keystone? why is shiv/rapid fire stacking being kept to give them duskblade levels of burst on their first auto attack in a fight?

69 Comments

Purgë27 votes

cause riot balance team bro the only change that adc will get is getting buffed

AirKingNeo2 votes

except ADCs are being nerfed massively and also this update will actually bring variety to builds instead of rushing Crit.

Terozu9 votes

Ummm no. Its only a nerf if you have less than 60 armor.

And rushing crit aint gonna change.

AirKingNeo3 votes

700 more gold btw

Terozu3 votes

That doesnt nerf them. It delays their powerspike. As a late game class that's not really a nerf.

700 gold is nothing to an adc.

AirKingNeo3 votes

700 gold is a shit load and you know that because BoRK became unviable from a 200 gold nerf. Because Deathcap became viable after a 200 gold buff.

Also delaying powerspikes is huge. While they're waiting for 700 gold (that's a lot), you're able to kill them and that means they're less powerful at every point in the game until full build. Most games don't go to full build.

I don't even know why you have no bias in this. There's no much evidence to say gold costs matter and you know that people who have to spend more gold are less powerful because that's how the game works.

Terozu2 votes

No it does not make them less powerful it delays their power, difference.

And Bork was never unviable. It hasnt been unviable for years.

OmegaNITRO3 votes

"That means they're less powerful at every point in the game until full build."

I guess you didn't read that part? Crit ADCs have less items until they get 700 more gold than they would have now.

So until the point in the game where gold values don't matter, they will be less powerful. Simple concept.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Yeah, but now ADCs can't kill you in "bursty-autos" at 20 minutes. That's been pushed back to 26-30 or so.

Also no one buys BoRK anymore. It's a joke on melees.

Terozu4 votes

Bork is a high teir anti tank item.

AirKingNeo1 votes

That no one builds and it a joke item on melees?

Terozu2 votes

Kindred Yes KogMaw No MasterYi One Lucian Builds Vayne Bork. Tristana Nope. Warwick Not Twitch At all.

Oh. Wait.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Kindred Does Lucian not Tristana build Warwick bork

Kindred is a crit champion. She can't afford to buy non crit outside her jungle enchant. Lucian builds ER Crit now (and he sucks anyways) Trist doesn't even build Bork... Warwick never buys BoRK. He goes Cinderhulk, Trinity Force, Titanic Hydra, into tank.

Jax Irelia Aatrox Kayle Varus XinZhao Yasuo aren't building bork. Only aatrox does in his rageblade build if he's got conqueror, which he only takes vs tanks.

Terozu1 votes

Yes they do build bork omfg.

Terozu1 votes

Of fucking course they dont build it regularly its an antitank item. Thats called a situational item.

And taking 5% of the games playerbase is not proof.

Go check Op.gg where ull find they all build botrk.

Critmaster Garen22 votes

also, at which point is marksmen itemization going to be changed, that they at least have to pay attention to item builds again and build a last whisper item to be able to shred a 200 armor fighter?

its like the game isnt even playable for us anymore unless we buy ninja tabi and randuins every single time.

even "low tier" marksmen like Sivir are currently capable of shredding you in 5 seconds with physical damage, just by stacking zeal items and i.e. without even bothering with armor pen items.

because the infinity edge rework doesnt seem to change any of that, considering that it makes crits bypass armor on its own already.

ISLAMICWARRIOR992 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TIs1onPn,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-05-04T08:06:01.217+0000)

also, at which point is marksmen itemization going to be changed, that they at least have to pay attention to item builds again and build a last whisper item to be able to shred a 200 armor fighter?

its like the game isnt even playable for us anymore unless we buy ninja tabi and randuins every single time.

even "low tier" marksmen like Sivir are currently capable of shredding you in 5 seconds with physical damage, just by stacking zeal items and i.e. without even bothering with armor pen items.

because the infinity edge rework doesnt seem to change any of that, considering that it makes crits bypass armor on its own already.

"Shredding you in 5 seconds" Sounds fine to me considering tanks take a quarter of that to kill marksmen.

Purgë8 votes

oh also did u see those ga changes and maw changes? they want adcs to be tanky but get away with it since they deal now crit true damage

Critmaster Garen24 votes

{quoted}

oh also did u see those ga changes and maw changes? they want adcs to be tanky but get away with it since they deal now crit true damage

its just. they seem to be physically incapable to ever just nerf marksmen as a class, even when theyre op. every time theyre nerfing them at one end, theyre compensating them in 3 other places and in ways that almost negate the nerfs, while making them stronger at what theyre already strong at.

yea, infinity edge on its own is going to be shit now, but stormrazor and one zeal item like rapid fire + hail of blades is just going to replace that frontloaded burst of an i.e. crit. instead of critting you once for an opening shot of 250% damage, theyre critting you two times for 200% damage in the same trimeframe.

like marksmen dont need more damage against fighters and tanks either. theyre already shredding fighters without even paying attention to their build pathes and the need to build armor pen, and even the weakest of the class are able to carry games with 3 items. the only thing that prevents the weak marksmen from seeing play are usually the strong marksmen beating the shit out of them in lane and afterwards.

what riot should do from marksmens current position is to nerf their burst, and especially frontloaded damage/direct them back into the role of sustained damage. increase their item costs to the same level as other carry itemization, so they dont start outscaling at 2 or 3 items. and keep their damage to tanky champions relative the same without further increasing it (because thats just overkill at this point).

remakoro7 votes

Cuz everyone except AD are just extra.

JMoriartyDK6 votes

Maybe you didn't know but when Riot hired the current balance team, fresh out of high school, they misunderstood the memo explaining how to balance a game and mixed buffs with nerfs, that's why last time they ''buffed'' mages by taking mana regen from almost everything and gutting mana in general and know they are'' nerfing'' adc by making them have a bunch of other options like new items , true damage... so there ya go. /s

SwiftKitten886 votes

{quoted}

Maybe you didn't know but when Riot hired the current balance team, fresh out of high school, they misunderstood the memo explaining how to balance a game and mixed buffs with nerfs, that's why last time they ''buffed'' mages by taking mana regen from almost everything and gutting mana in general and know they are'' nerfing'' adc by making them have a bunch of other options like new items , true damage... so there ya go. /s

AH HA I FIGURED OUT A SOLUTION!!!

riots balance team is like little kids... we just say something logical and they do the opposite... so... maybe if we say adc needs buffs. they will finally nerf them!!!

got to hit them with that "reverse psychology".

i honestly cant believe that the balance team has gotten so incompetent that i can even MAKE that joke...

Dead flag blues5 votes

Because we need to see the shiny playz with Xayah in LCS pressing R, Jhin one-hitting assassins, or Lulu Janna clicking buttons when they fuck something up

SEKAI5 votes

Why after so many years they still can't make Zeal items un-stack-able from each other?

If the 2 Hydra items (Ravenous Hydra and Titantic Hydra) which are intended as "pick one but not the other" much like the intent of Zeal item line-up, can have totally different passives and actives but are named and categorised under the same 'Unique' effects in order to prevent stacking, why can't this apply to fucking Zeal items, even though you have already know for YEARS that the Zeal item stacking is both unintended, has been heavily abused, and the SOLUTION IS RIGHT IN FRONT YOU?

Wtf, Riot?

Elkington VI1 votes

Is it really that much of a mystery at this point?

AirKingNeo3 votes

Why should Zeal not be stackable? Also, stacking Zeal items is very intended. Tristana, Cait, Twitch, etc wouldn't have items to build without it.

Terozu2 votes

Twitch would build Runaans like he used to. That hasnt nor will ever change no other Zeal item compares to Runaans on him.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Yeah but Twitch usually gets Shiv on top of it. Plus negating Twitch as an example doesn't negate the rest.

Terozu2 votes

Trist would take RFC same with Cait.

Xayah and Ashe would take Phantom Dancer.

Vayne would take Statikk

AirKingNeo1 votes

Cool, what's their second zeal item? How else do they get sufficient Crit?

Terozu1 votes

Essence Reaver.

I.E. + any two crit items is now 100% crit.

AirKingNeo1 votes

But in this hypothetical zeal items don't stack so you'd only get 60% crit.

Which is funny, since the OP claimed they abuse double Zeal, but double Zeal is intended, making it not abuse.

Terozu1 votes

In this hypothetical youd still get 100%. Because 60 + 40 is 100.

Just because its an intended interaction doesnt make it not abusable.

AirKingNeo1 votes

The word abuse implies unintended.

Please don't distort the definition of words.

Terozu2 votes

Ummm no. Abuse and intention are mutually exclusive and by saying they arent you're the one distorting words.

AirKingNeo1 votes

They aren't.

Abuse Noun The improper use of something

How can something be both intentional (proper) and improper at the same time?

Why do I have to give a vocabulary lesson? Don't use words you don't know! There's no excuse for ignorance because you're on the internet!

Terozu2 votes

Are you an idiot? Does that definition say unintended?

Because if not you are wrong.

The improper use of something

Oh look, it doesnt. Way to go smart guy.

Using crit items to stack passives is abusable regardless of whether it was intended.

Terozu1 votes

It is intended byt improper. Its still abusing it.

Automated Riven1 votes

Ashe would take runaans

Terozu1 votes

Ot would depend on the match up i think.

Automated Riven1 votes

Not really. Sh is a teamfight focused adc. And runaans is the best and synergizes with her q.

Terozu1 votes

Ashe is a utility adc. Not a teamfight focused one.

Phantom dancer is good on her in the case of short range adcs like Vayne and Kai'Sa.

Automated Riven1 votes

She is losing to them with or without PD, that's why she builds for teamfights where she has some measure of protection.

BLIGHTBRINGER4 votes

Honestly as a ADC main, I don't even know anymore lol.

MetalGearTeemo3 votes

Find me any stupid change made to balance and I'll find you high rank riot balance staff who main adc.

Teridax683 votes

Of all the things to have in the game in this current state, front-loaded burst damage is the absolute last thing we need more of. On top of that, marksmen are exactly the last class who need to receive front-loaded damage, particularly since they have been among the unhealthiest features in the game literally every single time they got to deal any significant amount of upfront burst (which some can still output even now). For the life of me, I absolutely cannot see why one would ever think it would be a good idea to balanced a ranged, DPS-based class with ultra-reliable damage around also inflicting front-loaded burst, let alone take the time and resources to implement multiple versions of that in one go, in an update whose purported goal was to nerf marksmen and their burst against squishies. I do not understand how we can receive major updates that harmed the identities of entire classes of champions, all in the name of counterplay, yet still bear witness to this raging boner for more burst, on the class that arguably has some of the least counterplay in the game at this point. It is intensely frustrating, because at this point we already all know that these effects are going to ruin games in the future and warp the meta into an even unhealthier spot. This particular set of changes just feels so counter to everything Riot had said up to this point on interactivity, class definitions, etc., that it makes me question whether the team still follows the same design philosophy anymore, or even has any kind of consistent philosophy at all.

PandaNator432 votes

I share you concern, but I think hail of blades has a lot of opportunity cost to not taking any of the precision keystones. Also confused by stormrazor, but I think that is just as powerful on assassins? Perhaps more so because its passive doesn't loose value as you build other crit items? The PBE team mentioned duskblade + stormrazor feels really good on some assassins.

Will it ever make sense to build stormrazor + full crit?

I don't like the new IE's true damage, but that isn't really a burst thing.

They are increasing zeal item gold cost, but that doesn't remove ADC burst, just pushes back the time until it comes "online." Were there stat nerfs to the zeal items too? I can't remember

The new items hopefully allow other ADCs to be viable, the types of ADCs that doesn't synergize well with crit (burst) builds.

Overall I'm excited for the changes, but am a little skeptical that they won't be abused.

What do you think?

T4underbolt2 votes

They will be abused because they are straight up buff. Somebody did a math and you will be dealing more DMG with same items and since you hit 100% crit at 3 items you can build whole lot more of other items to fill rest of the slots. So DMG reliability and consistency has been increased significantly.i already said before the changes went live that riot will try to hide buffs behind something that is supposed to look like nerfs. And so we are here and I was right. Enjoy another 3 years of ADC being even more broken than before. Though I doubt this game will last that much with how much riot tries to destroy it.

FilDaFunk2 votes

Could we do to the zeal items something similar to Lost Chapter? That is, part of the crit chance or attack speed is moved to a named unique passive?

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted}

Could we do to the zeal items something similar to Lost Chapter? That is, part of the crit chance or attack speed is moved to a named unique passive?

it would make sense. dont bet on them doing it.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Critmaster Garen

5 years and we still have to go to third party sites to get all the information about a champion
Gameplay95 comments
371
votes
to ADC mains who complain that bot lane ziggs pokes you down from far out of your range
Gameplay228 comments
352
votes
"Melee Phase Rush users are almost universally outperforming their ranged compatriots"
Gameplay167 comments
242
votes
we need an "enemy missing" - ping
Gameplay78 comments
218
votes
WHY is vayne even buffed?
Gameplay153 comments
168
votes
cut off one head...
Gameplay60 comments
168
votes