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Reason Why Ninja Tabi Seems OP

Incarceration··3 votes·3,717 views

There is way too much burst so the 30 armor is extremely useful in stopping lethality from doing true damage to you. The passive is also extremely important since most lethality users use a lot of autos to kill a target, and that isn't the purpose of lethality.

Lethality is supposed to help you do damage with your abilities since your abilities have a scaling while auto attacks do the amount of damage based on enemy armor, and your AD, which is always increased by the AD of the items you buy. Because of that scaling issue, abilities need armor penetration because they can't be enhanced by any other means, but AD can easily be increased with crit.

However, most people using crit are using that as a form of sustained burst with a tradeoff that is fundamentally flawed anyway. If we actually had AD carries like Ashe, then armor would actually have some meaning. They would take some time to kill you, but they will eventually be able to kill you.

However, most other AD carries just have sustained burst. They do 650 damage per auto to tanks, so tanks are useless in the late game except for their CC.

What we should do is just rework crit to actually bring on sustained damage, and rework lethality to just enhance your abilities instead of nerfing item after item, just to have a 5 carry comp.

22 Comments

Hexs Fortune2 votes

30 armor is pretty good actually for the cost

CancerBasedGod1 votes

30 armor is not good. The passive is good. The fact that it is the only armor option for adcs and most assassins is the other thing that makes it so popular. It simply lacks competition.

Häßlich1 votes

Assassins can build a couple other things. It's not the "only" option. Though there aren't many options. Assassins aren't meant to be tanky, but a defensive item or two can make a big difference.

item 3742 item 3075 item 3026 item 3512

CancerBasedGod1 votes

Deadmans is for divers. Thorn isn't for assassins. Zz'rot sure isn't. Guardian is conditional.

Häßlich1 votes

You have a very narrow view of item usage then. A view that likely holds you back.

CancerBasedGod1 votes

. . . No, Zz'rot is just a bad pick on any true assassin. You're not going to see a Zz'rot Kat, Kha'zix, or Le'Blanc dominating a good game. I think you're confusing assassin with jungler. Even then Zz'rot is probably not the best pick.

Häßlich1 votes

Zz'Rot is so you can afk push a lane and set up favorable teamfights--something assassins value highly, and the armor/MR is the same as GA, which helps you survive longer when they try to turn and focus you.

Also, I'm not confusing anything here. Trying to put words in my mouth only makes it sound like you don't know what you're talking about, and damages the value of your opinion.

Every one of those items can be situationally correct, even for assassins. You just have to evaluate where the enemy team's strengths are, how well the match is going, and who threatens you the most.

Häßlich1 votes

Assumptions I'm seeing in this thread:

Lethality shouldn't work on autos Crit is bad (because RNG is bad) ADCs shouldn't do burst damage "Sustained Burst" is a euphemism for "their dps is too high"

What I don't see is why Ninja Tabi is supposedly OP. You talked about AD a lot, but 30 armor is easy to get, and the passive on Tabi is probably the best counter to Lethality, but why cry about Lethality after it keeps getting nerfed to stop (or at least discourage) ADCs from using it?

Incarceration1 votes

Because of the overabundance of damage, many squishy champions are getting Ninja Tabi to survive the burst of Lethality since 30 armor is not "easy to get" because of the lack of defensive options besides lifesteal.

  1. That is a suggestion.
  2. That was not my reasoning, my reasoning was that Crit was also a cause of the overabundance of damage.
  3. AD carries are not supposed to do burst damage unless you are an AD caster. You are supposed to do sustained damage.
  4. Not the dps, the burst of their autos. They should not be killing tanks within 4 seconds.
Häßlich1 votes
  1. Bad suggestions, because assassins use autos for their kills just as much as their abilities. It just depends on the specific champ in question.
  2. Your assumption that there is an "overabundance" of damage is a misdiagnosis of the real issue: Overabundance of Lethality. There's too much when you take all the runes/masteries/items, and the items say "unique passive: 15 Lethality," yet they stack, unlike other items that do that.
  3. ADCs only "burst" with their abilities, and not all of them can even do that.
  4. Autos are not burst. They are the baseline dps, and crit is part of this. You are mixing up (or not understanding) what the terms means. However, they only kill tanks when they have significant item advantages over them, or are full built. This is by design. This is the REASON to bring an ADC. If they could not fulfill this role, they would have no place in a team comp.

And 30 armor is very easy to get: item 3105 item 1031 item 3024 item 3082 item 3191 and any of the MANY items these build into.

Rebonack1 votes

{quoted}

  1. Bad suggestions, because assassins use autos for their kills just as much as their abilities. It just depends on the specific champ in question.
  2. Your assumption that there is an "overabundance" of damage is a misdiagnosis of the real issue: Overabundance of Lethality. There's too much when you take all the runes/masteries/items, and the items say "unique passive: 15 Lethality," yet they stack, unlike other items that do that.
  3. ADCs only "burst" with their abilities, and not all of them can even do that.
  4. Autos are not burst. They are the baseline dps, and crit is part of this. You are mixing up (or not understanding) what the terms means. However, they only kill tanks when they have significant item advantages over them, or are full built. This is by design. This is the REASON to bring an ADC. If they could not fulfill this role, they would have no place in a team comp.

And 30 armor is very easy to get: item 3105 item 1031 item 3024 item 3082 item 3191 and any of the MANY items these build into.

30 armor is easy to get, yes. But Tabi is 30 armor that anyone can utilize without gimping their build. That's how boots should be, yes? A reactive purchase based on what the enemy team is rolling with rather than 'build this option all the time always'.

If Riot added the old Will of the Ancients into the game again (the one with the spellvamp and AP aura), then I can assure you that the 3-4 AD meta would drop off the face of the Earth and Tabi would vanish along with it.

Häßlich1 votes

There is literally no champion in the game who would get gimped by building whichever of these items is most correct for them. At the very least, every champion can benefit from item 1031 because it builds into item 3026 and item 3512 . Many champions can build item 3024 because item 3025 or item 3110 are good for them. Any support can build item 3105 into item 3190 . Many AP mids/bruisers (even some assassins) build item 3157 . Any tank can build either of the things out of item 3082 . Most AD fighters/bruisers (and some assassins) build Chain Vest into item 3742 .

The point is that 30 armor is very easy to get, and you aren't gimping your build by just having, say, a Chain Vest in between your 1st and 2nd, or 2nd and 3rd items. You can always build it into something useful, and don't forget; You do zero dps when you're dead.

Edit:

If Riot added the old Will of the Ancients into the game again (the one with the spellvamp and AP aura), then I can assure you that the 3-4 AD meta would drop off the face of the Earth and Tabi would vanish along with it.

I wish they would. Tabi would still be good, but it would go back to the "situational buys" category that it belongs in.

Incarceration1 votes

That point is wrong. You can't just get "30 armor" without gimping your build, but Tabi allows for that to happen. AD carries scale multiplicatively so getting that GA instead of that PD doesn't enhance them, but puts them further behind because they will do less damage than the other AD carry.

Now I will address the earlier response in this thread.

  1. Those lethality items give AD as well. That would have been the proper way to lower burst instead of having the assassin rework. They would give time to react while giving them some poke damage.
  2. There is no overabundance of lethality. I doubt you understand the issue with this game at all. The reason why teamfights last less is because of the damage that everyone does. They tried to address this issue by lowering damage from masteries, but that just lowered damage from tanks. Now the people who are supposed to be doing damage are doing way too much of it. This is why Ninja Tabi seems so op, it lowers the damage in two ways and one of those ways have no counterplay against it besides using abilities.
  3. They don't burst with abilities ffs. They do atleast 650 damage per auto to a TANK, maybe even more if they upgraded the Last Whisper.
  4. You are mixing up your terms. Burst is when a target gets killed in a very short amount of time (usually 2-3 seconds). Those autos coming from AD carries are killing squishies in at most 3 seconds while melting tanks like butter. They should be outscaling those tanks, but not by that much. In addition, AD carries are also brought for their objective control since mages can't kill towers as fast nor take actual objectives as fast. Therefore, they will still be brought as much.
Häßlich1 votes

All I'm really seeing here is a big wall of text without anything that makes sense when applied in game.

I doubt you understand the issue with this game at all.

You have it backwards. This is you.

You are mixing up your terms.

Again, you.

In addition, AD carries are also brought for their objective control since mages can't kill towers as fast nor take actual objectives as fast.

Nashor's and Lichbane disagree with you. Even if it's not "as fast" as an ADC, it's still more than fast enough to forget bringing an ADC altogether if they can't shred tanks.

And this part especially,

AD carries scale multiplicatively so getting that GA instead of that PD doesn't enhance them, but puts them further behind because they will do less damage than the other AD carry.

Their carry gets killed more easily and stays dead. You do not. Even if they deal more damage, they are far more susceptible to anything in the game that remotely tickles them. You wouldn't believe how many games I've seen carried by a Vayne who understood this very basic concept.

Incarceration1 votes

Nice try. Especially when I have better mmr.

To address your last point, that's why a carry gets peel. If both carries get peel, the AD carry with the ninja tabi, PD, runaans, lord doms, ie, mercurial has a bigger impact than your Vayne with GA. If your Vayne manage to carry you, then the enemy team did not properly peel for their AD carry because that AD carry will output at least 10 times more damage than Vayne.

Häßlich1 votes

Nice try. Especially when I have better mmr.

Saying things you can't back up. Nice try. You're only S3, and likely because you undervalue defensive items. You see more of them as you play against harder opponents.

As for "peel," good luck finding that on a regular basis at low elo.

You do zero damage while you're dead.

Incarceration1 votes

What didn't I back up? The fact that ADC items scale multiplicatively? Everyone knows that, and yes, I do find peel in low elo, and if I don't get it, I have a thing called kiting.

Watch as I reach Gold+ this season.

Häßlich1 votes

Trying to twist words to change what is being talked about isn't clever. It's cowardly. Saying that you have better MMR is a baseless assumption, because you are trying to compare it to an undefined MMR. You have no idea how good or bad I am, and even if you did, your argument would then be ad hominem.

If you think you're good at kiting, good for you, but there are plenty of champions that you cannot easily peel off yourself once they get on you before you die--especially if you are full damage without any defensive items. You get popped under tower, they flash out, GG. You get popped under tower with GA, they flash out, and if they come back for you they might die (depending on how you play). Similar situations happen in teamfights.

I'm not arguing that you will deal somewhat less damage with a GA, but that you have more opportunities to make plays--and for your team to--if GA keeps you alive. You will do more damage by spending less time dead, especially in the assassin meta where carries get deleted nearly instantly if they don't build any defenses.

Incarceration1 votes

From those two ranked games you played this season and the normal games that you play, in addition to the mmr that op.gg gave you, I can easily determine I'm better than you. In addition, I'm not trying to act clever. Rather it's you who is trying to seem smart by adding terms such as "ad hominem" that is nowhere near necessary. Nice italicization, but guess what, it isn't making you seem smarter.

Those champions are called Divers, and they are countered by staying out of range of them because that's what you are acknowledging by building like a glass cannon. I can easily communicate with my teammates as well because they are actually good players who understand the game and what the situation calls for.

Well, in my opinion, GA just feels like an item that is good to prevent duels from going out of your favor. However, in teamfights, AOE is valued. If I have that Runaans and increase that damage output, then the AOE will be much higher. Tabi is there because I'm going triple crit, and all I'm losing from Greaves is just AS, and that isn't too necessary because I can't kite properly when I have 2.00 AS.

Häßlich1 votes

lol, going off 2 ranked games and you think you can compare MMR. No reason to bother reading the rest of your post since you clearly lack the capacity to use simple logic or rational reasoning.

Häßlich1 votes

Stopped reading when the insult came out. Don't really care what you have to say.

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