Why doesnt the "adaptive" keyword exist for resistances?

Critmaster Garen·Sep 29, 2017·16 votes·3,727 views

the mirror shield and iron skin runes could be reduced to one slot, if they used the adaptive keyword, and gave you resistances dependent on what you built more of.

gain 5 bonus armor or magic resistance and additional 5% bonus armor or magic resistance for 3 seconds after youve healed 20 or more health. adaptive.

why isnt this a thing?

its the same power as both runes individually give you.

we could have an extra option in the second row of the resolve path.

using 2 slots for the same effect seems wasted right now. not only this, but just like adaptive ad/ap runes we could flip the resistance bonus over mid game if we need to.

46 Comments

GrievousFetusSep 29, 201710 votes

Probably because defensive itemization is dependent on opponents and varies from match to match while offensive itemization is intrinsic to the champ you're playing and constant.

Critmaster GarenSep 29, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Probably because defensive itemization is dependent on opponents and varies from match to match while offensive itemization is intrinsic to the champ you're playing and constant.

except hybrid champs benefit from the same options.

they even expect some of the champions like kennen to go into the game with a dorans blade and get adaptive ad at the start of the match to help them csing and then flip the bonus over to ap later.

i see a lot of mages actually starting out dorans blade in the future to get adaptive ad at the start of the game from their runes to help them csing before their first back, and then swap it over to an ap bonuspast the first levels when their spells got a couple points and allow them to waveclear.

this might become standart for many ap champions.

either way, i dont see the harm if its one rune.

it would free up a rune slot in that row.

RiotWrekzzzSep 29, 201710 votes

Pretty much this. There are two main reasons why we decided to not go that direction and leave adaptive for offense.

First, adaptive is primarily useful for providing the same option to two characters that want to specialize in different stats. Defense, you generally don't have a strong push to specialize in. As a result, shifting a block of defenses from Armor to MR is sometimes useful, but often you want a more balanced approach.

Second is predictability. Offensive scalars are intrinsic to your champion, with hybrids being the outliers. For defense its largely a reactive decision and creating the potential for your defensive profile to switch undermines the ability for your opponent to check your defensive profile and decide if buying pen is a good option vs other items. We don't want to create a way that your reactive itemization decisions can be undermined by an opponents defensive profile shifting in non-obvious ways.

Critmaster GarenSep 29, 20174 votes

{quoted}

First, adaptive is primarily useful for providing the same option to two characters that want to specialize in different stats. Defense, you generally don't have a strong push to specialize in. As a result, shifting a block of defenses from Armor to MR is sometimes useful, but often you want a more balanced approach.

iron skin and mirror shield as they are exist exactly for the purpose to focus on a specific defensive type over a balanced approach. so that argument is pretty much mute. you only pick one of these runes exactly when you dont want a balanced approach anyways. isnt that the entire point of having 2 seperate runes that either focus on armor or mr instead of providing both?

as far as the desire to focus on a balanced defense approach goes, this nieche could be filled with the rune slot that would open up by combining iron skin and mirror shield into one adaptive resistance rune.

a version of legendary guardian or fearless could be brought back for that matter. their situational effects and uses are unique enough compared to the other two options in that row to make them a specific strategic choice.

high focus on a specific defense vs. high, situational, balanced defenses (legendary guardian) vs. sacrifice of early game power to get high, non situational, balanced defenses later.

{quoted}

Second is predictability. Offensive scalars are intrinsic to your champion, with hybrids being the outliers. For defense its largely a reactive decision and creating the potential for your defensive profile to switch undermines the ability for your opponent to check your defensive profile and decide if buying pen is a good option vs other items. We don't want to create a way that your reactive itemization decisions can be undermined by an opponents defensive profile shifting in non-obvious ways.

the second point sounds like a double standart to me.

champions are allowed to change their damage profile mid game and make the defensive itemization of their opponents that theyve built in reaction to a specific damage type partially meaningless is ok, but champions switching their defensive profile is unfair?

why exacty?

kennen walks into lane with a high ad value on a dorans blade + ad from runes and starts building the ad components for gunblade first and forces us to build armor in reaction to his itemization to survive his poke.

he later sells the dorans and grabs a little more ap than ad and suddenly all the bonuses from runes swap over to ap and his damage profile changes from mostly physical damage to mostly magic damage and makes most of our armor worthless against him. this includes adaptive damage keystone runes like electrocute!

you guys were proud of strategies like this being possible in the new rune system. it was even explicitly mentioned in the live stream a couple days ago. but it undermines the ability for your opponent to check your offensive profile and build defense in reaction to it.

so where is the difference? why is a stategy in context of switching damage profiles amazing and fair, and the same strategy in context of switching defensive profiles not?

SpoofghoulSep 30, 20171 votes

It basically means armor/mr is moot

People swap their damage or simply penetrate it or both so it's semi pointless to even build any

You are better off simply grabbing health instead and if you have slots left use those for damage

There is very little reason to even consider resistances anymore

The items/runes are half as gold efficient as the damage options with the possibility of losing more value due to penetration and with this new adaptive bs you even risk losing ALL their value

You are better off not building any armor or mr but if you do limit yourself to the 1 item that counters your opponents the hardest and just stick to health and damage otherwise

Raven and TerraOct 1, 20171 votes

I think you misunderstood him. The problem isn't those runes but the prospect of having so a ton of armor then suddenly like half of that and more mr. With those two runes, your armor isn't going to sudden drop for MR at any point in the game. It is clear to your enemies that physical damage dealers will ALWAYS do less damage to you that Magic Damage Dealers, unless their builds counteract this.

For your second point, by the time kennen gets the cutlass and is forced to start building ap, you have AT MOST one component of an armor item you were most likely going to get anyways (if you're a tank at least) so that makes little sense to me. Could you explain a bit better?

Critmaster GarenOct 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I think you misunderstood him. The problem isn't those runes but the prospect of having so a ton of armor then suddenly like half of that and more mr. With those two runes, your armor isn't going to sudden drop for MR at any point in the game. It is clear to your enemies that physical damage dealers will ALWAYS do less damage to you that Magic Damage Dealers, unless their builds counteract this.

For your second point, by the time kennen gets the cutlass and is forced to start building ap, you have AT MOST one component of an armor item you were most likely going to get anyways (if you're a tank at least) so that makes little sense to me. Could you explain a bit better?

it doesnt matter anymore. i found a different solution to deal with mirror shield and iron skin and turn them into one rune.

just make them exclusive, free, single purchase items that unlock at the start of the game and get consumed at 10 minutes. ive linked the new thread in the post above yours if you want to check it out.

DeadUnbornSep 30, 20171 votes

Then why have Iron Skin and Mirror Shell though? I mean the decision-making there is not very complicated:

Does my champ have innate healing or will buy refillable potions in lane?
IF ANSWER IS YES --> Does the opponent have more physical or magic damage? Pick one depending on which

Seriously the only time were I would actually have to make a choice between the 2 would be if I was taking Rek Sai or Mundo in the JG and had to choose between gaining armor to mitigate Monster damage or Counter a heavy AP team.... and in any case Conditioning just outperforms both (in most cases) because is not as situational and you the 5% bonus armor is going to come online past the 10 minutes anyhow when you have stacked up more resistances

Critmaster GarenOct 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Pretty much this. There are two main reasons why we decided to not go that direction and leave adaptive for offense.

First, adaptive is primarily useful for providing the same option to two characters that want to specialize in different stats. Defense, you generally don't have a strong push to specialize in. As a result, shifting a block of defenses from Armor to MR is sometimes useful, but often you want a more balanced approach.

Second is predictability. Offensive scalars are intrinsic to your champion, with hybrids being the outliers. For defense its largely a reactive decision and creating the potential for your defensive profile to switch undermines the ability for your opponent to check your defensive profile and decide if buying pen is a good option vs other items. We don't want to create a way that your reactive itemization decisions can be undermined by an opponents defensive profile shifting in non-obvious ways.

i have opened up another discussion thread for the iron skin and mirror shield runes individually and porposed another solution to combining them and making them than making the bonus adaptive.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/IAh34nMe-proposed-solution-for-the-iron-skin-and-mirror-shield-resolve-runes?comment=0001

The Yetii RiderSep 29, 20176 votes

Why would you want Adaptive for armor and MR?

Most runes that are beneficial to tanks benefit both armor and MR (Aftershock, Conditioning, Perseverance). But if you wanted to take a rune that has Adaptive, it will always go to armor. You build both as a tank, it's not like choosing one or the other, and armor items have more armor than the MR items. You have armor items that have 80, 90, 70 armor and MR items that give 55 MR.

Critmaster GarenSep 29, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TI88Vl74,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2017-09-29T15:52:07.631+0000)

Why would you want Adaptive for armor and MR?

Most runes that are beneficial to tanks benefit both armor and MR (Aftershock, Conditioning, Perseverance). But if you wanted to take a rune that has Adaptive, it will always go to armor. You build both as a tank, it's not like choosing one or the other, and armor items have more armor than the MR items. You have armor items that have 80, 90, 70 armor and MR items that give 55 MR.

its really only the one rune id like a better solution for (or the two).

never mind that a 3 rsistance bonus with a situational, short duration 5% increase is actually garbage compared to what other pathes offer in offense (i expect the effect to get buffed to more reasonable numbers). but also no other tree wastes two rune slots on the same effect.

The Yetii RiderSep 29, 20171 votes

Yeah, no one should take those runes. If you're so fucking greedy that you would rather have early game armor or MR over mid game armor AND MR, you're probably not playing a champion that needs those resistances in the first place.

A tank's game isn't decided at the 10 minute mark, they still have plenty of time to contribute. Bruisers and other super early game cheese champions don't need good early game defensive options. They should either invest into higher damage output options or just outplay their opponents and avoid damage instead of tanking it.

Critmaster GarenSep 29, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TI88Vl74,comment-id=000500000000,timestamp=2017-09-29T20:40:17.138+0000)

Yeah, no one should take those runes. If you're so fucking greedy that you would rather have early game armor or MR over mid game armor AND MR, you're probably not playing a champion that needs those resistances in the first place.

A tank's game isn't decided at the 10 minute mark, they still have plenty of time to contribute. Bruisers and other super early game cheese champions don't need good early game defensive options. They should either invest into higher damage output options or just outplay their opponents and avoid damage instead of tanking it.

what the actual shit? have you ever been in an unfavourable matchup?

try playing against someone like gnar or quinn with no early game defenses. you dont really get the opportunity a lot to outplay ranged right clicks from a mobile champion.

of course bruisers are going to need early defensive options. especially when other champions like ranged top laners get early offensive options.

The Yetii RiderSep 30, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TI88Vl74,comment-id=0005000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-29T21:29:45.649+0000)

what the actual shit? have you ever been in an unfavourable matchup?

try playing against someone like gnar or quinn with no early game defenses. you dont really get the opportunity a lot to outplay ranged right clicks from a mobile champion.

of course bruisers are going to need early defensive options. especially when other champions like ranged top laners get early offensive options.

You have Dorian's Shield, at the strongest it's ever been.

And no, I've never been in any matchup. I'm a jungler. I couldn't give two shits about the first five minutes. I just ban Warwick and path differently against Lee Sin and Shaco.

Critmaster GarenSep 30, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=The Yetii Rider,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TI88Vl74,comment-id=00050000000000000000,timestamp=2017-09-30T03:30:47.145+0000)

And no, I've never been in any matchup. I'm a jungler. I couldn't give two shits about the first five minutes.

then why the fuck are you talking about what we need in lane matchups and what we dont, when you dont have an actual idea how they play out?

The Yetii RiderSep 30, 20171 votes

Honestly? It's because watching you loser top laners rage about how difficult and hard your life is when I know that all you have to do is pick up Smite and walk away makes me laugh my ass off.

If this game makes you mad, then stop playing it. If the game is difficult, change your role or your pool or your strategy. The last thing that's going to help is whining on the internet.

KhristophorosSep 29, 20172 votes

This would be pretty cool. Right now it's two slots for basically the same rune. lol

MysterQSep 29, 20171 votes

Idk if it is a thing. From you said, whatever you build more of you get that adapted.

If I am building armor, I normally don't need to excessively stack armor. Health or coverage MR might help more. Like I don't have gold to buy MR, but I would still want MR from runes until I get more gold.

ExcalibaitSep 29, 20171 votes

^ pretty much this.

Critmaster GarenSep 29, 20171 votes

{quoted}

^ pretty much this.

this only concerns runes though. this mechanic doesnt exist for items, and right now im only talking of a single resolve rune. (or combining two of them into one)

Critmaster GarenSep 29, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Idk if it is a thing. From you said, whatever you build more of you get that adapted.

If I am building armor, I normally don't need to excessively stack armor. Health or coverage MR might help more. Like I don't have gold to buy MR, but I would still want MR from runes until I get more gold.

iron skin and mirror shield are early game runes.

youre supposed to chose whichever you need to run against your lane matchup.

conditioning is supposed to be more of a midgame option. you sacrifice early game defense to get more later on.

an adaptive version of iron skin/mirror shield would play into this concept just the same. you start out cloth armor + pots and get some extra armor into an ad matchup.

or you start out dorans shield and grab a mantle on your first back, and get some extra mr off it.

MysterQSep 29, 20171 votes

I haven't read any of the new runes.

But if as you say these are early game runes... why would I not just pick the direct counter going into the matchup. If I am vs magic, I choose the MR one. If I am vs physical, I choose the AD one. Having adaptive sounds terrible. I don't want to start Cloth. And I want my MR before I have money to back and rush Mantle. Like this sounds absolutely horrible.

And even in midgame. Very few times would I want to overstack my armor/MR. I would rather have health. Or a balance of the them. OR if Rammus straight Armor for damage or MR for coverage.

Critmaster GarenSep 29, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I haven't read any of the new runes.

But if as you say these are early game runes... why would I not just pick the direct counter going into the matchup. If I am vs magic, I choose the MR one. If I am vs physical, I choose the AD one. Having adaptive sounds terrible. I don't want to start Cloth. And I want my MR before I have money to back and rush Mantle. Like this sounds absolutely horrible.

And even in midgame. Very few times would I want to overstack my armor/MR. I would rather have health. Or a balance of the them. OR if Rammus straight Armor for damage or MR for coverage.

if you havent read any of the new runes, you dont have the comparison and judge this out of context. i dont mean to be offensive, but there isnt really a point in discussing this when you dont know what im talking about.

go read through the new runes pls. riot has them listed on their preseason page.

one application i could give as an example is if you have to deal with a lane matchup of a certain damage type, but the enemy team has 2 carry poisition filled with the other damage type.

for example youre in a top lane matchup against a maokai and need mr early on. but you have to deal with the enemy marksman and an ad assassin by midgame.

sometimes it happens that during a game you have to swap focus on which resistance type to stack depending on the rest of the enemy team members. but you have to focus on the resistance type to counter your lane matchup early on. even if its not what you want to focus on in the game overall.

an adaptive armor/mr rune could help with that.

MysterQSep 29, 20171 votes

No.

I seem to understand it. If you have more Xstat it adapts into Xstat. So if you buy armor, you get more armor. And MR gets more MR.

But for defensive states, sure it will help you in laning. But I don't want to buy cloth armor to have armor, and I don't want to buy mantle (because that means you are basically already losing). It seems better to just have the defensive stat I need straight from level 1. If you save a rune slot, do they make another rune to replace it? It isn't like you have to use both runes (or maybe you can only pick one). What do you gain besides cosmetics with the adaptive form, which also makes you give up level 1 defense.

Critmaster GarenSep 29, 20172 votes

{quoted}

No.

I seem to understand it. If you have more Xstat it adapts into Xstat. So if you buy armor, you get more armor. And MR gets more MR.

But for defensive states, sure it will help you in laning. But I don't want to buy cloth armor to have armor

then you chose another rune.

the resolve path itself already gives you extra hp to start the game. or you can pick up celestial body from the inspiration tree and get another 100 hp at the start of the game.

and I don't want to buy mantle (because that means you are basically already losing). It seems better to just have the defensive stat I need straight from level 1. If you save a rune slot, do they make another rune to replace it? It isn't like you have to use both runes (or maybe you can only pick one). What do you gain besides cosmetics with the adaptive form, which also makes you give up level 1 defense.

you would gain more options in the resolve tree if theyd make another rune. people have alreadyposted a bunch of good suggestion what could be put in its place.

you would also get the option to start the game with one resistance bonus depending on your lane matchup and then swap it over to the other resistance type if needed later on, if the bonus was adaptive.

MysterQSep 29, 20171 votes

So yes, getting more rune options may be nice. I won't argue that.

But again, adaptive defense sounds bad to me. I doubt ADCs will take it anyways, but if I was taking armor I want armor I am not building MR. If I was taking MR I want MR I don't want armor. There are few times where I feel I would want this adaptive. In the end, I wouldn't think about it. But it doesn't mean I want it.

Critmaster GarenSep 29, 20172 votes

{quoted}

So yes, getting more rune options may be nice. I won't argue that.

But again, adaptive defense sounds bad to me. I doubt ADCs will take it anyways, but if I was taking armor I want armor I am not building MR. If I was taking MR I want MR I don't want armor. There are few times where I feel I would want this adaptive. In the end, I wouldn't think about it. But it doesn't mean I want it.

"adaptive" would give you the same resistance type you build more of.

if you start cloth armor, the effect would give you more armor.

if you build a mantle, the effect would give you mr instead.

why would you get mr by building a cloth armor? that was how the season 5 mastery worked, but the new "adaptive" effect for ad and ap works differently. it just gives you more of the same you already have.

what im asking is to do the same for the two runes in the second row of the resolve path, to free up a slot for something else.

MysterQSep 29, 20171 votes

I understand what adaptive does.

I am saying, I don't want to buy cloth armor just to get armor. I want my armor just because I have the rune. Likewise, I don't want to waste my first back to buy a mantle... because that means A) I already have MR why do I want more and B) I am losing even harder now. Like I needed the MR before I was chunked out of lane.

I mean yes the extra Armor/MR helps. But it is just a little late if I have to buy an item to get it.

Critmaster GarenSep 29, 20172 votes

{quoted}

I understand what adaptive does.

I am saying, I don't want to buy cloth armor just to get armor. I want my armor just because I have the rune. Likewise, I don't want to waste my first back to buy a mantle... because that means A) I already have MR why do I want more and B) I am losing even harder now. Like I needed the MR before I was chunked out of lane.

I mean yes the extra Armor/MR helps. But it is just a little late if I have to buy an item to get it.

then just make the rune default to mr.

and when you want armor, you just start cloth + 4 pots. you dont sacrifice anything or have to make awkward choices, as cloth armor is a decent start into any ad matchup.

MysterQSep 29, 20171 votes

I can say it again, I don't want to buy cloth armor. I know ADC wont take this tree anyways, but if I want armor for lane I want armor without having to buy an item and be put behind. Spending money on defenses does put you behind in lane many times. Likewise if I jg and want armor. I am never starting cloth, I am never buying second item cloth, I am not even buying third item cloth. I am not buying it.

I mean if there was another way to implement adaptive where you can choose, sure. That would be great. Then you can start level1 with the defense you want. And you wouldn't have to buy an item.

Critmaster GarenOct 1, 20171 votes

{quoted}

I can say it again, I don't want to buy cloth armor. I know ADC wont take this tree anyways, but if I want armor for lane I want armor without having to buy an item and be put behind. Spending money on defenses does put you behind in lane many times. Likewise if I jg and want armor. I am never starting cloth, I am never buying second item cloth, I am not even buying third item cloth. I am not buying it.

I mean if there was another way to implement adaptive where you can choose, sure. That would be great. Then you can start level1 with the defense you want. And you wouldn't have to buy an item.

since you dont like the idea of making the bonus adaptive, since it would force you into specific starting items, how about this solution?

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/IAh34nMe-proposed-solution-for-the-iron-skin-and-mirror-shield-resolve-runes?comment=0001

NineTailedMysticSep 29, 20171 votes

youre supposed to chose whichever you need to run against your lane matchup.

That's why. If I'm sacrificing my secondary tree and a rune on Resolve and Iron Skin for an AD match up, for a specific example, I probably don't need it to adapt to MR.

RalanrSep 29, 20171 votes

Makes sense as a secondary but it hurts primary more.

Champion SkinSep 29, 20171 votes

Ehh if you don't build MR I don't think +5 MR is going to help that much and the +5% when healing 20 HP or using a consumable certainly isn't going to be great either

MysterQSep 29, 20171 votes

You may be right, but look at how many people complained "I needed runes to be competitive." All they were getting is maybe 9 armor, etc. People care about those numbers.

I am simply saying I don't want to buy MR to activate my rune the way I want it.

RexxieeSep 29, 20171 votes

Because we dont need to make tanks any stronger, they are already TOO strong.

Critmaster GarenSep 29, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Because we dont need to make tanks any stronger, they are already TOO strong.

the power of a single adaptive armor/mr rune would be almost exactly the same as iron skin and mirror shield individually.

you dont get more resistances out of it. you just condense 2 versions of the same rune into one.

the only difference is really, that you could flip the resistance bonus over when needed. and its still more than a month until preseason.

they have time to balance it out. preaseason itself is still going to be a balancing phase too.

FatedSaviourSep 29, 20171 votes

can someone explain adaptive to me, cuz i havent seen this keyword anywhere other than the new runes (im oce)

MysterQSep 29, 20171 votes

If you buy more AD, offensive runes "adapt" into giving more AD. If you buy more AP, offensive runes "adapt" into more AP.

There is no "adapt" for armor, mr yet.

Critmaster GarenSep 29, 20171 votes

{quoted}

If you buy more AD, offensive runes "adapt" into giving more AD. If you buy more AP, offensive runes "adapt" into more AP.

There is no "adapt" for armor, mr yet.

thats why im asking to make iron skin and mirror shield work the same way, combine them into one rune and have "adapt" apply to the resistance bonuses it gives.

morris1Sep 29, 20171 votes

There used to be a mastery that gave you armor or magic resist, depending on what you had less of.

Critmaster GarenSep 29, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moraru Maurice,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TI88Vl74,comment-id=000300000001,timestamp=2017-09-29T12:49:41.533+0000)

There used to be a mastery that gave you armor or magic resist, depending on what you had less of.

it used to be called adaptive armor, yes.

it was one of my favourite masteries in season 5.

it just irks me that the resolve tree has essentially 2 of the same rune. if they gave it a little bit of work, it would probably be possible to turn that into a single rune and add some other option to the tree.

someone made the suggestion to add a rune that reduces damage taken from ranged champions while youre in melee range of them for example.

or we could have a version of legendary guardian back instead.

Chembaron YamadaSep 29, 20171 votes

Btw, does this resistance buff stack?? Like, if I play Trundle and take Iron Skin, then ult and heal every second, does that mean the first second I get 5% armor, then 10% and then 15%? Or is it always just 5% and refreshes after each healing instance.