Can we not balance BC around Lucian?

dunder kill·Jun 29, 2017·112 votes·4,500 views

feel so shit to build. I want the old build path back. The new + feels sooooooo bad to build. You literally have to sit on 15 AD until you complete the full item. Lets not forget it recently lost 10 AD and 20% of its shred on top of it.

Its supposed to be a first or second item powerspike. Whats wrong with that? Other classes get that too. ADCs get or . Mages get . Junglers get their stat stick Jungle items.

So why was gimped so hard because of this asshole ?

Give us the old build path back. 15 AD + health feels like complete shit when its your first item. Do whatever you have to do to keep it away from Lucian. Make it Melee-only hmmm? Nerf Lucian into the dirt? I dont give a damn what you have to do. Do something.

can go rot for all I care. Give us our back

145 Comments

Ben SharpioJun 29, 201735 votes

making it melee only would be an actual sin how dare you suggest such a fucked up thing what the fuck dude delete this thread

ABlueQuakerJun 29, 201762 votes

"Ranged Champions Stack Cleaver at half the rate."

Better?

SkorchJun 29, 201724 votes

Yes actually, that is way better than the usual lazy "melee only"

This would make it closer to Fervor, and i beleive guinsoos.

This is actually a much better idea.

aspects1Jun 29, 201714 votes

not guinsoos it stacks at the same rate regardless of range

SkorchJun 29, 20172 votes

Ah oh well, is there any other stacking item that is halved for ranged? None are coming to mind.

BTW i want to clarify, there is a big difference in halving stacks on stacking items, and halving stats of an item which i am FULLY against.

MooooooooreDakkaJun 29, 20174 votes

Early season 6 Guinsoo's Ragequitblade stacked at double speed for melees, that might be what you were thinking of.

Blackstone01Jun 29, 20173 votes

Guinsoo's they made 6 stacks regardless of melee/ranged.

Smitty ManjensenJun 29, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Yes actually, that is way better than the usual lazy "melee only"

This would make it closer to Fervor, and i beleive guinsoos.

This is actually a much better idea.

Then I demand Hurricane to be melee too, it's just fair then.

Chembaron YamadaJun 29, 20172 votes

Why is it "just fair" then? ô.o Both fractions have 2 restricted items. item 3074 item 3748 melee only. item 3085 item 3094 ranged only.

So why would it be just fair making one of the ranged only items melee?

OelykJun 29, 20177 votes

I don't mean to offend you, but RFG doesn't exactly fit under the category of Ranged only by definition. It does, however scale it's bonus range with your own range up to a cap, so only ranged units can utilitize it effectively. I do hope this helps you.

Tails9016Jun 30, 20171 votes

For RFC, do abilities that apply on-hit affects( Gangplank q for example) count? Because I really want to piss people off with it on GP.

OelykJun 30, 20172 votes

It does apply the bonus damage, and does everything for you but it does not increase the range of the spell, only auto attacks. However, taking your example of GP Q, its cast rage would remain the same, but the bonus damage would go through.

Ionian VulpixJun 29, 20176 votes

Yeah, screw ranged champions for ever wanting to build something other than crit items.

SímoJun 29, 201712 votes

End violence!!1!111!1they steal melee's items abuse them get them nerfed then move on to the next melee item.

Blackstone01Jun 29, 201720 votes

Not cool to tell people to end themselves/kill themselves/harm themselves in general. It's a dick move.

SejeoJun 29, 20174 votes

I do not know why this was downvoted.

ZephyrDrakeJun 29, 201715 votes

the item was changed because they wanted to make it more of an item that AD bruisers can get as their sole damage item, it was not changed because of lucian

dunder killJun 29, 20173 votes

the item was changed because they wanted to make it more of an item that AD bruisers can get as their sole damage item

And reducing the one source of bonus AD and reducing the armor pen would achieve that how?

ZephyrDrakeJun 29, 201717 votes

{quoted}

And reducing the one source of bonus AD and reducing the armor pen would achieve that how?

it got more HP, the item didn't need more AD since the champions it was targeted for cared more about the extra HP than the AD portion. The change to the armor reduction was made to make sure it didn't have too well of a synergy with lethality items. This same patch where this happened was where the last whisper items lost 10% of their bonus armor pen as well. Sorry but you can complain about Lucian all you want but he wasn't the reason the iem got changed. Lucian wasn't even relevant at the time

Big LincolnJun 29, 20177 votes

i cared more about the AD

cleaver changes were a big net negative for illaoi

Critmaster GarenJun 29, 20172 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=THQXr0kf,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-29T07:33:37.575+0000)

i cared more about the AD

cleaver changes were a big net negative for illaoi

didnt they change her scalings generally to total ad to make her synergize better with health builds or does she still scale mostly with bonus ad instead of total ad?

tbh, i never understood that. as far as juggernauts go, she was the odd one out with her bonus ad scalings. those always promote more squishy damage builds than going for straight defense.

Big LincolnJun 29, 20171 votes

they were always total ad as far as i can remember.

i can still get close to 4k health on my standard build anyway, i'd rather have more AD

the cleaver changes have me looking toward item 3035 builds now

Critmaster GarenJun 29, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=THQXr0kf,comment-id=000300000000000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-29T07:48:37.937+0000)

they were always total ad as far as i can remember.

i can still get close to 4k health on my standard build anyway, i'd rather have more AD

the cleaver changes have me looking toward builds now

i dont think the internal cooldown even made it to the PBE. i may have just missed it, but i havent seen a cleaver change so far.

Big LincolnJun 29, 20171 votes

not that one, the armor shred nerf

it feels much weaker overall now

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 29, 20172 votes

yeah... -6% armor shred

ZephyrDrakeJun 29, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=THQXr0kf,comment-id=0003000000000000,timestamp=2017-06-29T07:33:37.575+0000)

i cared more about the AD

cleaver changes were a big net negative for illaoi

ok and? why should i care? because random player #879658859 cares about some AD?

Big LincolnJun 29, 20175 votes

i dunno, considering only 1 jugg actually benefit from the increased hp Darius and it was a nerf to almost every other melee user of the item maybe your unsubstantiated claim isn't actually that true

that's just my opinion tho hehe

Critmaster GarenJun 29, 20175 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=THQXr0kf,comment-id=000300000000000000010000,timestamp=2017-06-29T09:25:46.968+0000)

i dunno, considering only 1 jugg actually benefit from the increased hp and it was a nerf to almost every other melee user of the item maybe your unsubstantiated claim isn't actually that true

that's just my opinion tho hehe

most of them are built around health stacking/scaling though. including Illaoi with her tentacle heals. im confused as to how only darius benefit from that change.

i always thought as an early game item the health build path worked out better for juggs, since it made their bonus ad scaling opponents less snowbally and not power spike as hard early on, while the tradeoff in ad vs. health made little difference for the juggs due to higher base damage.

Riven or Fiora for example would much prefer the ad heavy build path over the health build path.

TálØnlyJun 29, 201710 votes

They also killed ghostblade because of adcs

dunder killJun 29, 20176 votes

RIP bonus attack speed (fuck you Twitch )

Anu3isIIJun 29, 20173 votes

Twitch has been using Ghostblade since forever tho...

Auz the RipperJun 29, 20172 votes

Nocturne really wishes ghostblade had attack speed again.

Critmaster GarenJun 29, 20177 votes

{quoted}

feel so shit to build. I want the old build path back. The new + feels sooooooo bad to build.

a) this IS the old build path. its the build path cleaver has had since season 3. the 3 longsword build path was only done during the marksman rework in season 6 and reverted.

b) the build path is meant to benefit bruisers. they value the health more than straight ad stacking.

no.

dunder killJun 29, 20177 votes

this IS the old build path. its the build path cleaver has had since season 3. the 3 longsword build path was only done during the marksman rework in season 6 and reverted.

Lol what? Originally it built out of item 1038 + item 1042

In season 3 it was changed to The Brutalizer + item 1028

What are you even talking about?

In mid-season 5 it was changed to item 3044 + item 3067 but changed to + item 3133 before the season was even over lmao

Critmaster GarenJun 29, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Lol what? Originally it built out of +

this was a completely different item. thats why i said since season 3.

In season 3 it was changed to The Brutalizer +

What are you even talking about?

that it always had the health build path. at least the version of cleaver that wasnt an attack speed item.

the 3 longsword build path was way too snowbally and made the item too good of a rush item on too many champions. they deliberately changed the path to health stacking over ad stacking and its base stats to more into health, so the item and the build path would favour bruisers over ad stacking champions.

it was meant to feel better to build on champions like Darius Illaoi Garen

and less so on squishy marksmen, skirmishers and assassins.

dunder killJun 29, 20173 votes

You said "this IS the old build path. its the build path cleaver has had since season 3"

It built out of Brutalizer + item 1028 from preseason 3 to mid season 5. It built out of item 3044 + item 3067 for only a couple months in season 5 before it was changed to + item 3133 for the rest of season 5, the entirety of season 6, and early season 7.

So...... what are you talking about?

Critmaster GarenJun 29, 20172 votes

{quoted}

You said "this IS the old build path. its the build path cleaver has had since season 3"

It built out of Brutalizer + from preseason 3 to mid season 5. It built out of + for only a couple months in season 5 before it was changed to + for the rest of season 5, the entirety of season 6, and early season 7.

So...... what are you talking about?

dude, i literally just said it.

previously cleaver built out of item 3044 + item 1028 but its combine cost was also a lot higher than its is now with 1188 gold vs. 950 gold.

(they did increase ambient gold generation since then too so those 950 gold are generated faster than they used to be back when the item was more expensive to combine).

so the difference is marginal. you can now upgrade the item 1028 to item 3067 before completing the entire item for a lower combine cost, but the build path was ALWAYS health focused.

dunder killJun 29, 20176 votes

previously cleaver built out of +

No, it built of of The Brutalizer + item 1028 . It did not build out of item 3044 . Do you not know what The Brutalizer is? Lol if you think triple longsword is snowbally, you'll get a kick out of that one.

It's a item 3133 and item 3134 smashed together. The Brutalizer was torn apart into those two items and removed from the game lol

Critmaster GarenJun 29, 20171 votes

{quoted}

No, it built of of The Brutalizer + . It did not build out of . Do you not know what The Brutalizer is? Lol if you think triple longsword is snowbally, you'll get a kick out of that one.

It's a and smashed together. The Brutalizer was torn apart into those two items and removed from the game lol

youre right, i completely forgot that this item used to exist.

but this doesnt change that the 3 longsword build path had a lot more problems than the current health focused build path. its part of the reason why they later on decided to revert the recipe and make cleaver less snowbally of an early game item and change the build path more towards benefiting bruisers.

looking at your usual item builds, your problem might be more gameplay related.

you seem to be more focused on winning over your lane opponent and rush item 3142 in almost all of your games. most higher ranked lane wukongs (at least those who still exist) are prioritizing item 3074 to alternate between pushing in their lane and then roam to make plays around the map to come back in time for a pushing minion wave.

i recommend watching some videos about minion management and macro play.

in principle, for MonkeyKing the health focused path shouldnt be less of an advantage than the longsword focused path. because even with your assassin build you want to have a certain amount of health to survive long enough for the fight and to synergize with your passive.

Kosm1KJun 29, 20171 votes

Dude you're terrible at arguing. All he was arguing was what you thought the build path was and now you're going into his match history? Wtf man.

All he was trying to say is that you were incorrect about what the ORIGINAL build path was, nothing else. Please read before you type

Critmaster GarenJun 29, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Dude you're terrible at arguing. All he was arguing was what you thought the build path was and now you're going into his match history? Wtf man.

All he was trying to say is that you were incorrect about what the ORIGINAL build path was, nothing else. Please read before you type

i was checking his match history to see who hes playing and to get context on why he wants the item changed.

"the health build path feels bad" depends heavily on the perspective and who youre playing. wukong in general is not doing great right now and needs buffs on his own. reverting the cleaver recipe wont fix the issues of that champion.

as a sidenote, i also noticed his typical item builds and how it revealed a flaw in his playstyle. changing any item wont fix that problem either.

while he was correct, that cleaver used to build out of brutalizer and was more ad focused originally, it doesnt change my second argument which is the reason as to why they reverted the recipe to season 5 state.

they wanted to make it less of a snowbally item that built by everyone and more bruiser focused. like they literally came out and said the health focused build path is supposed to feel better on bruisers and less good on squishier marksmen, skirmishers and assassins.

AirKingNeoJun 29, 20174 votes

Except Cleaver lost 6% armor pen (not 20%) due to the armor item adjustment. It lost AD and gained HP.

BakedLotionJun 29, 20174 votes

{quoted}

Except Cleaver lost 6% armor pen (not 20%) due to the armor item adjustment. It lost AD and gained HP.

20% of 30 is 6

dunder killJun 29, 20175 votes

I didnt mean it lost a flat 20%. I meant it lost 20% of it's total pen. 6%/30% = 20%

PoohdiniJun 29, 20173 votes

Game shouldn't balance around fucking ADC's.

ThefrostyvikingJun 29, 20172 votes

{quoted}

Game shouldn't balance around fucking ADC's.

Lucian has been controlling Botrk and BC by himself for the last few patches, no other marksman has that amount of synergy with either item.

No wonder he is one of the most played when so godlike with those items x)

woodvsmurphJun 29, 20172 votes

The current build path is fine on some champions like darius who have some innate armor shred and ad steroids - or those who have alternative first items they can rush. The main champ I feel like that actually lost a lot of bully potential until the item is completed is renekton. He lacks the ad that the components used to give him which allowed him to win quick trades so heavily and doesn't really care about the extra hp from the components since his spammable q could heal him up - even more with the old build path since it scales off ad. The slight bonus hp compared to the old build really doesn't make extended trades any better vs many enemies than the old build path did - in some cases it is worse. You basically need at least 2 damage items to have any meaningful damage outside of early game on him since cleaver lost some of it's armor pen and ad. Riven, fiora, etc. can rush tiamat or ghostblade (riven anyways) or some other item first and get cleaver later so they don't feel the pain as much in early trades. Darius has built in reliable armor shred; renekton has it on empowered e sure, but he doesn't really want to use empowered e in most situations - q or w is much better. The built in armor shred and the extra hp on cleaver means darius can stay in the fight longer early and get his passive up to get extra ad which makes up for the loss of ad on cleaver. Thus he also doesn't hurt nearly as badly when he still has just the components of cleaver compared to renekton. At least that's my thoughts.

All that aside, yeah I feel cleaver is maybe a bit weaker than it should be for champs who look to it as their 1 or 1 or 2 damage items - at least in the mid-late and late game. And yes the culprit is mostly adc's. Who do need some major adjusting to be less oppressive in mid to late game teamfights. Like I figured when they changed the build path and made cleaver more hp heavy and less ad heavy - adc's wouldn't mind as much as they thought because the extra hp just gave them more survivability while the slight decrease in ad doesn't hurt them that much since they get to stack a ton of ad from other items while bruisers kinda need to go tanky after getting cleaver.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 29, 20172 votes

renekton rush tiamat too

woodvsmurphJun 29, 20171 votes

The only scenario where renekton should rush tiamat is if he has 0 kill pressure in lane and is looking to just hard shove and roam to make plays elsewhere on the map. This is rare. In the VAST majority of cases, it is best to build cleaver first. Furthermore, in some scenarios it is best to not even build tiamat/hydra. You can bully people much longer via some kind of lifesteal item like dd or bork. Because renekton's abilities scale off BONUS ad instead of total or base ad, tiamat/hydra is not actually a great buy for buffing your damage except in the very early game. And it doesn't make you all that much tankier come later mid game and late game. Thus in some situations, it is better to just have a pure damage item such as dd instead so that you have more burst, sustain in any 1v1, and actually some chance to survive enemy burst and lifesteal through it long enough for your team to win a fight. Also, you don't normally want to rush tiamat because if you are not in lcs, you can freeze the wave by your tower to get a huge gold and xp lead vs your opponent and TIAMAT screws that up - it ensures you end up pushing out. So you CAN rush tiamat, but it isn't common nor is it great in most scenarios.

Sun Wu RyuumokuJun 29, 20172 votes

i agree with most except