"Malphite/Rammus are getting a VGU so they weren't picked for the tank update"

Big Lincoln·Apr 22, 2017·19 votes·1,922 views

This didn't stop any of the other roster reworks from selecting champs who are VGU worthy though

why would it be an excuse now? these class updates have had plenty of champs who they wanted to put in a better place until they can dedicate the resources to completely ~~replace~~ rework them. Malphite and Rammus are the two champs who would have been the best targets for this update and they got passed over for two tanks, arguably three depending on how you feel about Maokai, who were completely fine kit-wise.

42 Comments

RalanrApr 22, 201721 votes

So it's wrong that Riot wanted to avoid that mistake again?

Big LincolnApr 22, 20177 votes

the bigger mistake is reworking champions that didn't need changes

AnonagonApr 22, 201712 votes

All three champions that are getting reworked needed reworks on this scale.

Zac needed changes to make him have interesting combat patterns after he's already E'd in, rather than just spamming W and Q on cooldown.

Sej needed changes to make her less dependent on her ult and to make her more fitting as a cavalry style champion. (Not saying I particularly like the changes they've given her, just saying change was needed)

MaokaI needed changes to not be such a simple, generally powerful top laner.

Sad TyrantApr 22, 20172 votes

But that's not what they are doing with his (Zac's) ult, they are making it less fun and interesting

(the New Q is great though)

AnonagonApr 22, 20176 votes

That's like, your opinion, man

IMO the new ult creates more interesting gameplay. His current one is effectively just another ambient AoE magic damage effect like his W and current Q. The new one gives him important choices and potential for skill expression.

MelledoneusApr 23, 20175 votes

I think we all need to chill, actually f*cking test the changes for a patch, THEN make judgments.

I made that mistake with Shen many times, and while I still don't approve the nerfs entirely I can live with them.

RalanrApr 23, 20171 votes

Wise words from a wise ninja.

Sahn UzalApr 22, 201718 votes

Riot admitted that reworking Mordekaiser and Skarner during a class update was a huge mistake, so they wouldn't give any other champion on the VGU list a big update. Changes like Swain's and Shaco's are smaller updates to make them a bit healthier while they wait for their full VGU.

Big LincolnApr 22, 20172 votes

it wasn't a mistake, the reworks were shit on their own merits

KONO RUBICK DAApr 22, 20172 votes

i will never acknowledge that morde rework was terrible

it was good in any way and the only weak point was making morde only good botlane when his mains wanted to play him top/mid WHICH ISNT POSSIBLE unless you make mordekaiser an independant ranged mage like he was before instead of a slow juggernaut that needs his team

JbelsApr 22, 20174 votes

[{quoted}](name=Negan fanboy124,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TGJrJcQB,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-22T14:45:25.102+0000)

i will never acknowledge that morde rework was terrible

it was good in any way and the only weak point was making morde only good botlane when his mains wanted to play him top/mid WHICH ISNT POSSIBLE unless you make mordekaiser an independant ranged mage like he was before instead of a slow juggernaut that needs his team

Um...No. The Mordekaiser rework was a failure of design AND balance. They designed a lane bully that output more damage than the current lane bullies of bot lane at the time. He was so unbelievably broken that during one of the only games he wasn't banned during Worlds 2015, SKT dropped a game to it. SKT. And they were playing against a team that wasn't even that good compared to them.

After that, the live balance team ripped him to shreds, balancing him for top lane like the mains wanted, but never full-blown committing to returning him there, so now he's just a halfhearted fart bubble floating around in top lane that the mains can play somewhat alright. But since he just ended up going back to top lane, it pretty much completely renders the rework pointless. It's the biggest failure I've seen from Riot

KONO RUBICK DAApr 22, 20172 votes

{quoted}

They designed a lane bully that output more damage than the current lane bullies of bot lane at the time.

Except Morde can only bully you in all-in, if his support fails to catch you, if the enemy support successes in disengaging then morde is fucked because he can't keep up against poke with his base hp regen and base armor thanks to certainlyT

i call this balanced and morde damage output is as high as a hyper carry WHILE BEING DELAYED due to 3rd Q+W dot+Ult

{quoted}

He was so unbelievably broken that during one of the only games he wasn't banned during Worlds 2015,

i don't care about the past, we're not playing in 2015, morde received multiple balance changes and now is picked in competition while not being overbearing

{quoted}

After that, the live balance team ripped him to shreds, balancing him for top lane like the mains wanted, but never full-blown committing to returning him there

BECAUSE ITS NOT POSSIBLE LIKE I SAID morde cannot work toplane in high elo, any immobile juggernauts are not viable toplane in high elo unless overbearing (mundo, darius shyvana blabla) because they're balanced around needing allies to work in teamfight, by allies this means tanks bringing initiation and cc, and where those tanks go? top lane

period

MechakaiserApr 22, 20174 votes

As a mordekaiser main, and a player for the last 3 years, the reworked Mordekaiser was the worst thing I have ever seen in LoL. He had a 97% or something ban rate in competitive after his release, and for good reasons.

Except Morde can only bully you in all-in, if his support fails to catch you, if the enemy support successes in disengaging then morde is fucked because he can't keep up against poke with his base hp regen and base armor thanks to certainlyT

i call this balanced and morde damage output is as high as a hyper carry WHILE BEING DELAYED due to 3rd Q+W dot+Ult

97% banrate, there is no way a well coordinated pro team is so scared of a "simple, kiteable" champion. He pushed lane too hard, the extra experience gain was bullshit, and could oneshot the adc with a single auto, using only one damage item, which actually happened once.

i don't care about the past, we're not playing in 2015, morde received multiple balance changes and now is picked in competition while not being overbearing

Jbels is saying that the rework was a failure, and it was, the fact that he was "balanced" (or dumped) later doesn't make any difference, the rework was a failure, end of the discussion.

BECAUSE ITS NOT POSSIBLE LIKE I SAID morde cannot work toplane in high elo, any immobile juggernauts are not viable toplane in high elo unless overbearing (mundo, darius shyvana blabla) because they're balanced around needing allies to work in teamfight, by allies this means tanks bringing initiation and cc, and where those tanks go? top lane

period

Why should they? pro players are less than the 1% of the people who play League, not every champion needs to be balanced exclusively around pro-play, doing so brings waaaaay to many problems, ask Shen mains if you don't believe me.

KONO RUBICK DAApr 22, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Jbels is saying that the rework was a failure, and it was, the fact that he was "balanced" (or dumped) later doesn't make any difference, the rework was a failure, end of the discussion.

the design being good doesn't change anything and has nothing to do with the balance on release yes they did balance changes to him and now he is balanced and strong

that's all you need for a rework end of the dicussion

MechakaiserApr 22, 20172 votes

If he was balanced and strong he wouldnt need a VGU. Nobody plays him, and only mains have a decent winrate with him. He feels (at first) clunky, squishy for a juggernaut and too feast or famine, none of which encourage people to try him

Sahn UzalApr 22, 201719 votes

Yes. Those champions needed more time for their reworks. Like, let's say... a full VGU? oh...

Big LincolnApr 22, 20173 votes

like, let's say.. not stuffing gimmicks into a champion's kit that doesn't do anything but make them arbitrarily powerful just for being in a certain part of the map, or a passive that "solves" the bot lane problem by letting you out-level the enemy by doing the same thing they are?

oh...

Illâoi Evê SiônApr 22, 20178 votes

Why do you want them to repeat their mistakes?

Jeddy017Apr 23, 20171 votes

*proceeds to have Vietnam flashback to the Juggernaut update days*

Maybe for masochism?

Illâoi Evê SiônApr 23, 20171 votes

DrMundo

Sad TyrantApr 22, 20173 votes

Vlad only needs streamlining to make him less clunky

only Koggy's passive needs to change

Skarner, Agreed

Morde, Agreed

Shaco, idk

Swain, Agreed

Jeddy017Apr 22, 20172 votes

Because those times, Riot did small reworks along with the big ones. Now they forgo them to just focus on the big reworks & item changes.

Was that a good decision? Well everyone has their own opinion. Personally, they should have done small changes for Rammus & Malphite because it's going to be a while before their VGU happens. Giving them some love in the meantime would have been nice.

DoozkuApr 22, 20172 votes

They tried changes for Malphite, like turning him into a moving wall. They ended up not working so well so his rework was scrapped.

QuephaApr 23, 20172 votes

three of those (skarner, morde, kog) were considered disasters that weren't worth the effort it took to rework them, they're basically the reasons Riot is cooling it on the number of champions this time around.

xWatersApr 22, 20171 votes

They picked the 2 least chosen tanks in the game to not be included in their class update. And their VGU is so far away, what a poor excuse. It's ridiculous that they couldn't do anything for them.

JbelsApr 22, 20171 votes

That probably means that work has already begun on their VGU. None of the champions you have listed up there had a VGU planned or in progress when their reworks happened. This probably means Rammus and Malphite do

ShadowParkerApr 22, 20171 votes

Why are Kog'Maw and Vlad on there? They don't need VGU's.

chipndip1Apr 22, 20173 votes

Vlad DEFINITELY does. Kog is manageable now that he isn't a machine gun.

ShadowParkerApr 22, 20174 votes

Vlad really doesn't though. They fixed most of his problems with his class update. What they messed up on was creating a very high skill ceiling that pros can abuse.

Legacy HydralphaApr 22, 20171 votes

Well, it shows that they are learning. Riot realized that having changes in the update for Malphite and Rammus might end up making problems, and it's better to keep them where they are than make changes that could ruin them until their update. They learned from champs like Mordekaiser and such, so they appear to be improving.

agbudarApr 22, 20171 votes

il say it till people are sick and tired of hearing it idc it needs to be said till its fixed:

TARGETED CLICK STUN MAX HP% DAMAGE!!!!!!

HOW IS THIS GOING TO BE BALANCED... LIKE EVER????????

Irelia BotApr 22, 20171 votes

Aatrox, Diana and perhaps Renekton, Xin or Wukong would be my guess for the dive fighter class updates.

I understand fully that Irelia has an outdated Model and is planned for a full VGU so I do not expect her to get anything beyond some minor changes if that from the diver class update. Jax is likely in a similar boat to Irelia.

AnnoxisApr 22, 20171 votes

When they reworked Skarner and Mordekaiser during the Juggernaut Update, they didn't think « Let's rework them now, then do a full VGU later », they thought « We can fix the problem of the champ with this update ». That is because these reworks didn't as planned that they decided to clearly draw the line between who can be fixed with a Roster Update and who need a VGU.

In the case of Shaco and Swain, it was principally to solve some of their Game Health problem that they were updated. You can argue that they suffered from these update more than anything, but it doesn't change the fact that Riot choose to put ressources in their updates because they thought it was important enough to fix these game health problems.

Kog'maw is a tragic case, similar to Mordekaiser and Skarner (Reminder : ADCs update came right after Juggernauts update, before they actually draw the line Between VGU and RU), when they judged necessary to revert the rework. It was a mistake that they recognized and learned from.

Malphite and Rammus were not chosen because they have too outdated art and the artistic ressources put into a RU are not enough to be able to properly work on them. Furthermore, Sejuani, Maokai and Zac had problems that needed to be solved and far less than Malphite and Rammus, and their art are up to date with Riot's standards, so they were chosen, it is as simple as that.

MelledoneusApr 23, 20171 votes

Big Lincoln, the one poster known by name for his ability to get much less upvotes than the comments following them.

Big LincolnApr 23, 20171 votes

votes dont matter though

MelledoneusApr 23, 20171 votes

Heresy. The meme lords shall hear of your treason!

Big LincolnApr 23, 20171 votes

the real currency is replies

MelledoneusApr 23, 20171 votes

You are dabbling in dark, dangerous arts, Lincoln.

Big LincolnApr 23, 20171 votes

you haven't seen the depths to which i could sink

Akali is SO HOTApr 23, 20171 votes

Those two champs should consider themselves lucky they aren't getting a mini update. All of the mini reworks have all been half assed and have left the champion in a worse spot than before.