Demacia thanks you rito
I do tolerate good balance
Rito is in motion!
Thanks riot! This change should really bring it back to its juggernaut core and make it so that if assassins and fighters like the asshole of tomorrow (
) want to abuse our stuff then they better get ready to give up some AD for a little "useless" tank! We on the other hand don't mind such tradeoffs.
Now onto the next battleground for juggernaut itemization, reclaiming 
Variks the Loyal3 votesNext Patch - 
LAVISH BRUTALITY!
Spaceman5pff2 votesThe cleaver changes will actually be something of a nerf to renekton.
He really loves stacking AD earlygame, and Caulfields was an incredibly good first item for him. I don't think it will destroy him, but it will mean he cannot snowball quite as hard during a cleaver rush.
The BotRK changes though, those are AMAZING for renekton and I won't be shocked if it becomes a pretty powerful first item on him. That being said, he would potentially be forgoing Titanic if he did BotRK into cleaver, unless so ahead that he can delay resists / Locket
Variks the Loyal1 votesThe cleaver changes will actually be something of a nerf to renekton.
He really loves stacking AD earlygame, and Caulfields was an incredibly good first item for him. I don't think it will destroy him, but it will mean he cannot snowball quite as hard during a cleaver rush.
The BotRK changes though, those are AMAZING for renekton and I won't be shocked if it becomes a pretty powerful first item on him. That being said, he would potentially be forgoing Titanic if he did BotRK into cleaver, unless so ahead that he can delay resists / Locket
I'm thinking this might push Titanic Hydra out of his standard build, but it could be picked up 5th or 6th if you don't need to be any tankier.
This will also be an indirect nerf to Locket on Renekton. One of the reasons Locket is so good as a third/fourth item on Renekton atm is because Cleaver+Hydra gives him a lot of HP. It'll still be good, just not as good since he'll have around 300 hp less without Titanic in the build.
I'm thinking the standard order will be - 
> > > Boots > 
OR 
> 
> 
You sit on Cutlass for the flat damage on it's active (Since BortK is losing it's damage), and finish it later so you get the most use out of it and can get your chunk of CDR.
Hydra would replace GA if you need to be more damage focused. (For example, with a Tank Jungler and Supp on your team) Maw would replace Ran/Sunfire if you don't need the armor or you need a lot of MR.
Spaceman5pff1 votesI would probably give only get visage OR an HP / armor item.
Renekton gets lots of effective HP in his kit, especially if you run colossus. Resistances are far more effective.
My general defensive loadout (as a baseline to adjust from) looks something like Defensive Boots + HPResist item (visage or randuin etc) + locket.
The reason I opt for raw resists is that, as i mentioned, renekton gets lots of effective HP from hsi heal, ult, and colossus if you opt for it. from level 11 onward, you basically always have 1k more HP than it seems if ur ult is available, and you can get a half decent Q. Colossus and Locket amplify this. Since resists scale with HP, just buy more resists, the items they come on tend to be VERY efficient in this scenario.
McFatal2 voteswhere are the changes for black cleaver? i searched and only found champ changes for next patch and the new skins and such but no item changes.
Variks the Loyal2 voteswhere are the changes for black cleaver? i searched and only found champ changes for next patch and the new skins and such but no item changes.
Black Cleaver is having:
The goal is to make it worse for squishy champions like Marksmen and Assassins and Skirmishers, while keeping it core on Juggernauts and Divers.
They said they may go a little further and take away 5 more AD in exchange for either an even lower cost or more hp.
McFatal1 votesBlack Cleaver is having:
- Health increased to 400 (From 300).
- AD reduced to 40 (From 50).
- Cost reduced by 50g (To cost 3050g in total).
The goal is to make it worse for squishy champions like Marksmen and Assassins and Skirmishers, while keeping it core on Juggernauts and Divers.
They said they may go a little further and take away 5 more AD in exchange for either an even lower cost or more hp.
this will only make riven have to go for squishier builds since the ad on bc wont be as good.
the health increase is good tho and the cost reduce is no big deal.
Variks the Loyal3 votesthis will only make riven have to go for squishier builds since the ad on bc wont be as good.
the health increase is good tho and the cost reduce is no big deal.
The general goal is to shift BC away from Skirmishers (Like Riven) and Marksmen and put it on Fighters. So if Riven builds it less, working as intended.
Critmaster Garen6 votesThe general goal is to shift BC away from Skirmishers (Like Riven) and Marksmen and put it on Fighters. So if Riven builds it less, working as intended.
shes probably not going to build it less, since the overall stat combination and passives are still really strong on her.
however, i do appreciate that she wont be able to recall at lvl 4, tp back into lane with 3 longswords and then flash on you and blow you up while youre locked down by cc, without a chance to fight back.
if she wants to rush cleaver, she has to delay her power spike until the item is finished.
meanwhile bruisers who want to build into the item have a safer build path even when behind or pressured.
Tychusfindlay9192 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TEoPN4iy,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-09T05:07:19.893+0000)
shes probably not going to build it less, since the overall stat combination and passives are still really strong on her.
however, i do appreciate that she wont be able to recall at lvl 4, tp back into lane with 3 longswords and then flash on you and blow you up while youre locked down by cc, without a chance to fight back.
if she wants to rush cleaver, she has to delay her power spike until the item is finished.
meanwhile bruisers who want to build into the item have a safer build path even when behind or pressured.
Kindlegem instead of caulfields is a huge slap to her early game power if she goes for cleaver. I honestly wouldn't be surprised if some rivens went back to ravenous first and then maybe cleaver afterwards. Or lethality first cuz lethality is busted.
Tomosima1 votes[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TEoPN4iy,comment-id=00020000000000000000,timestamp=2017-02-09T05:07:19.893+0000)
shes probably not going to build it less, since the overall stat combination and passives are still really strong on her.
however, i do appreciate that she wont be able to recall at lvl 4, tp back into lane with 3 longswords and then flash on you and blow you up while youre locked down by cc, without a chance to fight back.
if she wants to rush cleaver, she has to delay her power spike until the item is finished.
meanwhile bruisers who want to build into the item have a safer build path even when behind or pressured.
THANK YOU and when i make a thread about this i get downvoted into oblivion at least someone understands the bullshit
Skias1 voteswhere are the changes for black cleaver? i searched and only found champ changes for next patch and the new skins and such but no item changes.
+100 HP -10 Ad
Critmaster Garen2 votes+100 HP -10 Ad
the more important part is the build path change.
you can stack health to build into cleaver instead of being forced to build squishy to get your core item. lets say youre in a matchup against a ranged top laner. the last thing you want to do is to stack damage and build squishy. unless youre playing a champion like irelia or riven who are mobile and bursty. this makes it not very feasable to build the current version of cleaver in such a matchup.
now you can return with 
+ 
into lane after your first recalls instead of + 
+
it makes cleaver a more feasable rush item for bruisers when pressured in lane. it just allows them to get one of their most stat effective offensive items by stacking health early on rather than stacking damage, which bruisers like a lot more than bonus ad scaling skirmishers, marksmen or assassins.
Orangesilk2 votesI mean, Illaoi absolutely detests this change, this is an awful, awful nerf to her. Why? Because unlike Garen and Darius who have most of their damage innate in their kit, Illaoi base damages are paltry at best, she makes up for it by having THE BEST AD RATIOS. This is a straight up nerf to her itemization, as it is, she already lacks many item options to really bring out her AD ratios without becoming a glass cannon, and we keep nerfing those few options patch after patch.
As it is, she already often dips outside of juggernaut itemization to deal decent amounts of damage 
Jeddy0172 votesTrue, but Riot can always just buff her later if the BC changes hurt her too much.
Tychusfindlay9192 votesI mean, Illaoi absolutely detests this change, this is an awful, awful nerf to her. Why? Because unlike Garen and Darius who have most of their damage innate in their kit, Illaoi base damages are paltry at best, she makes up for it by having THE BEST AD RATIOS. This is a straight up nerf to her itemization, as it is, she already lacks many item options to really bring out her AD ratios without becoming a glass cannon, and we keep nerfing those few options patch after patch.
As it is, she already often dips outside of juggernaut itemization to deal decent amounts of damage
It'd be better to buff illaoi herself and keep these changes, both for gameplay and illaoi mains.
Xevestos2 votesAs a talon main I'm sad.
Tychusfindlay9194 votesAs a talon main I'm sad.
No one gives a damn, in an ideal world you shouldn't even be buying cleaver.
Xevestos2 votesBut the game isn't perfect so I need some survivability with good dmg.
But the best part of it is dmg with 20% cdr, cdr is too damn important for me on talon.
Tychusfindlay9192 votesBut the game isn't perfect so I need some survivability with good dmg.
But the best part of it is dmg with 20% cdr, cdr is too damn important for me on talon.
If it's that important, then be prepared to get a little tankier while giving up some of your burst potential. Oh you're an assassin main who wants to burst? I don't care, make way for cleaver and steraks to come back to their proper users! Juggernauts will finally have their items back, and no amount of abusive criers will change that fact.
Mordepool2 votesIf it's that important, then be prepared to get a little tankier while giving up some of your burst potential. Oh you're an assassin main who wants to burst? I don't care, make way for cleaver and steraks to come back to their proper users! Juggernauts will finally have their items back, and no amount of abusive criers will change that fact.
About Damn Time
Xevestos1 votesThen make adcs dps and not butst per second.
Tychusfindlay9192 votesThen make adcs dps and not butst per second.
Honestly fine by me. The idea of ADCs outputting 2 1000 damage crits per second disgusts me too.
The second the meta shifts anywhere near mid or late game instead of early game ADCs will go back to being the most cancerous piece of shit class in the game
Escheton1 votesDon't forget Sion.
MorgManBasher1 votesDon't forget Sion.
Black cleaver kinda blows on Sion, he doesn't apply it well enough. He only has 1 physical spell other than his ult.
Would not recommend it on Sion unless you are going full AD, even then there are better options 
Escheton1 votesSion likes it more for the health and cdr when building offensively.
Those are all great options, but it doesn't have the same oomph as taking as first item. Which augments his Q damage, his W shield and damage, adds flat tankyness, and allows him to spam spells when needed.
True, he doesn't stack the passive fast or easily. But he does stack it, onto the entire enemy team when ulting and Q'ing. If done properly.
This kinda feels like people qq'ing about someone building 
on a non-stealth champ. Ignoring that it has great stats and utility regardless.
MorgManBasher1 votesMy AD Garen is not looking forward to the item changes, personally.
6Sfool1 votesI used to build cleaver on Illaoi. No room for it in my new favorite draintank build. 
fervor. Cleaver works great, but I have a lot more fun reliably 1v5ing any team with a melee champ.
A FLUFFY BUNNY 11 votesI think all the ADs are getting the nurf hammer here. They have taken away a lot of damage the last few patches and seem like they are just nurfing more and more. Soon it will be supports vs tanks.
Tychusfindlay9192 votes[{quoted}](name=A FLUFFY BUNNY 1,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=TEoPN4iy,comment-id=0007,timestamp=2017-02-09T17:16:27.631+0000)
I think all the ADs are getting the nurf hammer here. They have taken away a lot of damage the last few patches and seem like they are just nurfing more and more. Soon it will be supports vs tanks.
the next patch is a nerf to DAMAGE, both ADs and APs are going to feel like the weaker hands with the current mastery changes.