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I found what I think should be the new Enchanter Meta

Azadethe··10 votes·7,488 views

Okay. I've been playing with the Presence of Mind Sub Rune on Precision for awhile now.

On Nami Sona Karma etc, I Used to run these runes:

Sorcery: Aery Manaflow Band/Ultimate hat/occasionally Nullifying Orb. Transcendence Gathering Storm.

Domination Variable combinations of Ravenous/Relentless Hunter, Eyeball, Cheap Shot, and Taste of Blood.

Worked well..... but I found a meta that seems to work FAR better:

Instead of Domination, I'm going Precision.

But the combos I'm finding insane are not the ones I originally thought in Presence of Mind + Cut Down.

In Fact, Cut Down + Legend Tenacity is running better. Presence of Mind + Legend Tenacity is running better.

Imagine a Nami who has 51% Crowd Control Reduction. In non Knockup games, that's insane, and that's exactly what I'm finding out. It gives a new feeling to the context of "Slippery fish" and all it takes is item 3111 + Legend Tenacity, and being a support charges Legend: Tenacity rather quickly on Nami especially, because Nami is good at sealing kills or getting adcs to seal kills. Participation in 10 kills charges it, and Nami averages about 30+ a game.

I can literally face-fight a Warwick, because the cc is so drastically reduced. Or 1v1 a Twitch. It makes Nami feel like Season 4......

My first game trying it I went 34.8k damage, 36k heals, because I simply couldn't be shut down if I aimed my bubbles right. Was 1v1ing a Lux as well. She just couldn't root me long enough to matter.

Try it sometime Supports. You'll love the CC reduction.

71 Comments

Snowman Arc3 votes

You are not supposed to put yourself in situations where you are getting CCed. As a Janna main, I carefully position myself to have CC not hit me, or i just dodge them. Even with 50% Tenacity, if the enemy team hits the first CC on you and they pile up on you, you are probably dead anyway.

Apart from that, more importantly, you need to realize that you sacrifice in order to get that extra tenacity. I personally enjoy the perks that Resolve tree offers to make me tankier overall. I still have incredible potency to poke with my W and win trades, but now I stay very safe. I also use Inspiration sometimes for free boots and CDR, if I see that my lane isn't gonna be hard, to which point the extra tankiness won't matter as much.

Sacrificing those runes and the set bonus is a big cost. Free boots, free 5% CDR on everything + set bonus isn't worth the tenacity. The mana refund isn't good on supports either, since you already have a lot of mana regen in the first place.

Also, what world do you 1v1 a Twitch as Nami? Apart from maybe the first 5 levels, where I support Twitch would have a support next to him, I can't see it.

BLIGHTBRINGER1 votes

While you are right, you are bound to be CC'd at some point in the game.

Snowman Arc1 votes

It still doesn't justify missing out on so many other good things, just to get that tenacity. Also, you need to stack that rune to get its full value, and seeing how you are a support that doesn't farm, you only rely on kills and assists, that might not come until later in the game.

Azadethe3 votes

Putting yourself into those positions allows you to be a more present member of your team. And, then there's the times an adc dies and leaves you stranded., or your team suicides a team fight they can't win. I can escape those.

Usually 0-3 deaths Max.

I sacrifice nothing really, except Revitalize, and I've been playing without that since The new runes came out. Self Survival helps a team far more than adding a small multiplicative value to your shields/heals, especially since you are a primary target in every fight, which is why I used to go Dominate.

You also need to realize what you GAIN. Presence of Mind on a Janna is Godly, because all she has to do to contribute to a fight is E someone. This means she reliably has high kill participation, which means Presence of Mind resets her Ults. A LOT. And, it's not like a Janna couldn't use Tenacity to not run away..... since that's her whole thing: running away and throwing tornados.

@ Twitch comment. I did it 4 times in one game. How? You blow his Ult. Trick him into using it. Back off. then go back in, land Q's, W's and Ults. Exhaust after your cc is out, and keep E'ing yourself. If you can survive and set up the CC, an ult-less twitch can be outdueled by a Nami with her CC.

Back in Season 4 I was 1v1ing pretty much every adc with Nami, especially Ezreal because his E is so limited.

BakedLotion2 votes

if a twitch or warwick is losing to a nami i think there's a problem

First, tenacity doesn't help against twitch. Second, warwick should be face tanking you. I don't see in any way possible a nami can 1v1 a warwick at any stage of the game.

Lux, maybe if you dodge her stuff and you land yours. Then again, she can still instaburst you if she presses E and ult before the root connects with you.

chipndip12 votes

Why are people taking this seriously again?

BLIGHTBRINGER1 votes

[deleted]

meowwow72 votes

it isn't a cap it's the fact tenacity is multiplicative instead of additive

Daddy Ants1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Darkin Hybrid,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T7gg1VBu,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2018-04-13T10:28:51.166+0000)

Thing is I did a little test not a while ago, in the practice mode. Where I managed to get 64% Tenacity. But the thing is I should of had much more higher than that.

I was playing DrMundo where his W gave him (+30%) Tenacity + item 3111 (+30%) + Legend Tenacity (+30%) + item 3053 (+30% upon being triggered).

It's multiplicative scaling not additive.

Ahristocats1 votes

great

but is is better than braum/kench?

nop

Azadethe1 votes

Technically yes, because Nami's kit can control a Tahm, and because it heavily reduce's Braum's stun capacity, and Nami can also knockup/stun a Braum. Probably need a team versus them to actually kill anything, but strong.

Ahristocats1 votes

{quoted}

because Nami's kit can control a Tahm

then you realise that tahm kench players buy QSS and take unsealled spellbook to take cleanse

Mig891 votes

In regards to nami, would both of those not work. I didnt think any cleanse cleared knock ups which is what both Nami's cc do? Or am i wrong on that? Im not saying his suggestion is correct in regards to building items, just wondering if those actually work on a knockup.

Ahristocats3 votes

QSS removes everything, including knock ups. it removes every single cc even suppression

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Quicksilver_Sash

nami Q is also a suspension and i went to do some research and found out that suspension can be reduced by tenacity and removed by cleanse

http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Types_of_Crowd_Control#Suspension

but bear not, tahm kench players won't take unsealled spellbook in low elo, just like the dude who played against OP

Mig891 votes

Thanks for the info and links. Good to know.

iPooUnicorns1 votes

If you're a support going into the domination tree you should 100% take ingenious hunter. 40% CDR on trinkets and active items is too good not to take.

Azadethe3 votes

I'm not a support who builds many active items, and I beat those supports who do on a routine basis. Other than item 3092 , item 3040 , item 3190 , active items are a trap.

iPooUnicorns1 votes

Redemption is still really good imo, but the real reason to take it is for the trinket CD, gives you insane vision control.

Azadethe2 votes

Why do you need more vision control when you're carrying around potentially 4-5 wards, and can only place 3 at a time? I regularly have over 30 wards a game.

item 3107 I don't know what people see in it on champs that already have AP scaling heals. I've played Support since long before it was created, and it gives the same heal averages as an AP build, while nerfing kits. It also makes the Support vulnerable to Coup Des Grace, Cut Down, and item 3036 as well as various % damage attacks like those from Ornn , Brand , Amumu , Braum , DrMundo , Elise , Ekko , Galio , Gragas , Illaoi , JarvanIV , Evelynn , Kaisa , KogMaw , Kayn , Kalista , Maokai , Mordekaiser , etc.

Often, your best place to be as a support is tanky, but LOW HP.

The ONLY reason supports build item 3107 is because champs who better profit from item 3096 still are tooltipped to buy item 3311 when in fact, in most matchups, item 3311 gets highly underutilized because trading is a death sentence. So, Supports who use it are under the assumption, they're going to have low gold, so they buy the cheap item.

But you know what? I both outdamage AND outheal Redemption builds. I also move faster, enhance my teammates more, and can do more than just "run" from 90% of the champ roster because my kit's not designed to kill (when in fact sometimes it is)

JarodDempsey3 votes

item 3222 is not a trap, in fact more often than not it's the best single item for an enchanter support to directly increase their role effectiveness.

Azadethe1 votes

item 3222 Is a trap, because it loses 500g worth of passive stats when you buy item 3174 which is dramatically better. Ask yourself how many times item 3222 has saved an ally or you've been reactive enough to an ally's CC to actually make full use of it? Even if you cleanse one CC chain, your ally in this high damage elo and mobility usually gets RE-CC'd. The active isn't reliable.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

At that point then QSS should never be bought on anyone ever since it does nothing, yet you see it all the time against a variety of champions because it absolutely ruins them. You are an enchantress support. Yes, Mikaels by itself is probably not going to save someone DEPENDING on what the CC taken off is (if it is a long range Sej ult or something they are probably safe with just the mikaels), but Mikaels+any peel move in the game since they all probably just mongo dove on the person CC'ed most likely will. You know what happens when you Mikaels your Caitlyn who got hit with Camille E? Caitlyn uses her net and you use your tornado, silence, heal/shield, whatever and you murder the Camille who jumped in the middle of your team since Caitlyn is now 500+ units away from her and she doesn't have a gapcloser.

Azadethe1 votes

You see item 3140 because it's an incomplete item investment that can be sold late game. Mikhael's is much more penalizing to backtrack, and does more to put offensive stats behind.

Your Cait vs Camille example is a horrible one. If Camille has hit Cait with her E, she's also going to R, which cannot be mitigated by Cait, and in fact will disrupt her E. Camille's E is also only a .75 second root, so I really doubt you're being effective using a Mikhael's on that.

Morgana or Karma or Ornn games are the ones where Mikhael's are useful, because those CC are actually long.

YumaS2Astral1 votes

Also because item 3140 can remove things that Mikaels can't. Such as Malzahar ult

Azadethe1 votes

Nice catch. True.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

20% healing/shielding power is nothing to scoff at (60% for Redemption) and it still gives all the stats an enchanter would want (cdr, mana regen, magic resist, health regen). Also, simply not using the Mikaels on Camille engage means that Caitlyn can't move AT ALL which means she is going to get camille ulted anyway and not be 500 units away. Camille ult isn't going to disrupt her net at all. It is going to follow her until then end at which point she is in WAY deeper than she wants and you are (as stated before) an enchantress support that can easily keep whatever ADC that gets dove (doesn't even have to be Cait) alive since you have 30% heal/shield power with your ardent and the crucible and you also gave your ADC 40% movement speed to kite her around her cage in. Unless Camille is rediculously fed (like 9/0) she is never killing the ADC with Janna/Soraka/Lulu anywhere near her with TWO of those champions having incredible peel to keep her off (Lulu can literally just hit W on Camille and not even need to ult the AD).

Azadethe1 votes

It. does. not. give. AP. You don't seem to realize enchanters' kits are only functional if they are backed by AP. Otherwise you are a heal bot. nothing more.

Camille ult disrupts ANY skill that hits its wall. Look up how it works. The damage may work because it happens at the origination of the net, but it won't put her outside the wall.

The enchanter gets pushed back.

JarodDempsey2 votes

grail has been nerfed so many times into such a sad state compared to where it used to be, i almost never buy it where as crucible i buy almost every match bc cc is so common. Also grail relies heavily on pokes which its current mana passive cannont sustain for. I use crucible numerous times to save allies during a match, not to mention the 20% bonus heal/shield strength is super useful.

LordGeovanni1 votes

I agree item 3222 is a trap but its far better than what grail is at the moment I dont even build item 3107 anymore cause its so gutted but id build it over item 3174 because at least it has SOME good stats and a decent active while Athene's just waste's a whole slot you could have put another item in.

Azadethe1 votes

Then you really have no idea how to use item 3174 . It's literally the difference between 272-340 heals and 844-900 Heals.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Thing is to get that you have to sacrifice ap which just by having ap you could have made up heal diffrence (even though athene's Caps so you cant even quadruple your heals becuase its cant go higher than the original healing you are doing) and you have to have your allies almost kill themselves several times to stack that up and thus cant ever hold the extra healing because you will be healing less than what you are storing and you heal less often than your allies taking damage too better to just scale with ap than waste a slot on an item with no stats and a passive that you could have done better with with just raw ap. I just see it as why build an item with no stats and gimped passives when i can build item 3003 not have to have my allies almost die to get some stacks always heal more have more cdr scale my other spells that arent just my heal fix my mana problems and later on in the game get a shield to protect me because 30 magic resist is doing jack.

Azadethe1 votes

So many things to counter:

  1. No AP ratios make up the difference on heals on Athene's. That'd require some 833 MORE AP just to equal the max Heal on Athene's. It'd require an EXTRA 300 AP to cover the MINIMUM heal bonus.

  2. The reason Athene's generates 900 Heals is because the build has Much Cheaper, earlier and frequent access to AP than going either item 3222 or item 3107 or both. If the BASE heal is low, those items don't multiply much (This is why Rakan generally isn't considered a healer, even though he has a heal skill; His BASE Heal is almost nonexistent on Q; You have to scale it up with AP to be effective)

  3. WTF are you even saying about it not being able to store charges? And what do charges have ANYTHING to do with allies receiving damage? item 3174 charges when YOU do damage. 2 SKills from Nami can full Charge an Athene's. You don't need to full charge it to be useful either.

  4. In Nami's particular case, the reason for an item 3174 is far more nuanced.

In most stages of the game, and active item Nami will have less than 180-200 AP. This means, her bounces will do diminishing heals.

My Heals' bounces INCREASE - by up to 26% per bounce.

While a second heal bounce will only heal 272 ish on an active item build. Its base on an AP build is about 584. If you add a Athene's proc, that can get about to 900 heals.

LordGeovanni1 votes

My bad i didnt know they reworked the way you get blood charages. But still Athene's can only heal up to 100% of what the regular heal would have been. there is no way to use all of athene's charges in one heal except maybe redemption on the whole team and if you are talking multiple casts raw ap beats athenes.

JarodDempsey1 votes

If you like the heal/shield rune in resolve more than the cdr from inspiration then I suppose you can take it. Domination is a pretty far 3rd place for a secondary tree bc eyeball is really the only generally useful rune for supports in that tree. Precision is a very far 4th place for usefulness as far as secondary tree for enchanters go. You can't justify giving up the runes from resolve or inspiration for anything that precision has to offer, the benefits are either too miniscule or are mitigated by associated failings such as extra tenacity being moot when considering that you'll rarely be cc'd and if you are cc'd you're likely squishy enough that a half reduction won't prevent a death.

Azadethe1 votes

Your posts suggest you REALLY don't know support. You are the main target in almost all high elo fights. 5% CDR from Inspiration is highly overrated vs 10% Ult reduction and 20% MAX Mana recovery per ASSIST/Takedown/KILL. I'm sure you'll figure out someday that the new precision reworks have put it at the top. I know you are stuck on the idea that Precision's Keystones are weak on all but auto attackers, but its sub runes are now EXTREMELY powerful on all 3 minor rune sets.

Resolve boosts are okay, but certainly not required, and I've been stomping people who take them since they came out and were adhered to. But you keep believing in small boosts vs huge ones.

JarodDempsey1 votes

presence of mind is the only halfway good keystone for supports in that whole tree, the reason why it's not actually very good is because it's only regularly useful if youre already doing well and getting steady assists. If your team is struggling youll get very little use out of it which is coincidentally when you could use it most. 5% cdr is needed now more than ever since runes reforged greatly lowered starting cdr to the point where now that rune comprises half of your starting cdr. I personally never take resolve as it's just not as useful as inspiration, even if you argue that cosmic insight and PoM are equal, no other precision rune is of notable use, especially considering as an enchanter support your damage will generally be quite low making the whole tier 3 runes exceedingly useless while the tier 2 runes take a very long time to build since youre not killing minions.

Also i'd disagree with you about you being the targetin higher elo fights, youre generally the least available target due to range and position and adc's are the primary tagret due to them being the key to winning/losing the match in current meta.

My Waifu Vanilla1 votes

There is a tier completely dedicated to vision game in Domination with Zombie Ward being completely bonkers on supports since they have a sightstone and a sweeper to corrupt A LOT of wards. Also, Ingenious Hunter is arguably one of the best non-keystone runes in the game if you have active items which last I checked item 3107 item 3190 item 2065 item 3222 item 3060 are all really good items to have on shorter cooldowns.

JarodDempsey1 votes

Domination does have viability in higher elos (which are the minority of games) due to vision importance. Also igneous is quite a nice keystone if you find that youre using an item active often (also most supports wouldnt buy more than1-2 of those items) though thats quite situational and youd still be well off trusting in a tree like inspiration for the cdr simply bc it will be of much use regardless. I buy crucible all the time and it is almost always up by the next teamfight so i wouldnt find igneous to be of much use imo.

T4underbolt1 votes

So you imply that nami, karma are not in meta and not like they have those cancer shields and heals for a full hp bars and rendering useless every fed enemy engaging adc? Well nami still is a bit justified since she is more skill based.

AirKingNeo1 votes

Tenacity is bad on squishy champions who are ranged. Range lets you dodge CC already and if you ever get CCed, you die before tenacity can help.

Azadethe2 votes

Completely wrong if you build right. Stop thinking that every build is designed not to counter anything. And most range mages have an auto attack range of 550, and their primary damage sources are often only mid range at some 700 range. Almost every champ in the game has a hit that can invade that range.

For example, shortly after Zoe , I soloed a Zoe with a Nami while she was fed 10/0 by our mid, tilting her so bad she went and auto farmed her base until end of game. My Build?

item 3174 item 3111item 3065 item 3165 item 3504 item 3040 . I got slept 3 times in one fight. I nearly 100% healed out of whatever damage I recieved every time I got out of it. Builds counter sealed deals.

Just today, I went pretty similar and did 36k damage 37k heals in a game with Nami vs a Warwick, Int fed Singed. Dominated both of them. If you die before cc is out, you're doing something wrong.

LordGeovanni1 votes

I find that I ap champions dont have enough cdr to make trancendance worth while when i can just run away at mach 5 with celerity how do you get it to give lots of ap I try to get at least 30% over capped

Azadethe1 votes

item 3504 item 3100 item 2065 item 3905 All are both AP and Move speed and CDR. item 3003 item 3030 item 3285item 3115 are all 20% CDR

I don't know how you could ever not have enough CDR to overstack and make Transcendence worth it.

There are 6 Pure AP move speed items as well.

I'd love to know why you don't have enough.

LordGeovanni1 votes

Yea but you cant stack item 3003 and item 3285 for 40% cdr and then go item 3115 for another 20. it only reaches a 20% over cap while i think trancendence needs at least 30% to be good. With a bruiser i can go item 3078 item 3071 and still have a ton of other options cause bruiser and tank items are watered down with cdr . While mages do have Cdr options they are objectively worse than Just raw ap options once you have reached the cap while bruiser and tank items are all bad just that with Trancendence you can stack the best of the bad items and get extra out of it. hell you can even dip into what used to be bruiser items but got locked off as adc items now item 3508 item 3031 / item 3046

Athenes Lulu1 votes

That almost looks like my setup. So... a meta where enchanters aren't braindead autobind shield bots? I'll take it.

DeathBurst1 votes

Did you try Unflinching in Resolve? It's a bit less Tenacity but it's also Slow Resist (I don't think Legend gives Slow Resist), and having HP from the Path Bonus is much better than AS, I find.

Azadethe1 votes

Depends on the champ. If I'm using Ornn I sometimes use Sorcery Main Resolve secondary.

But Unflinching is more of a Jungler rune than a laner rune, since smite sets off its duration bonus more often. Its effect is pretty limited in lane since it's only 10% most times with one summoner on cooldown and limited use of the duration effect.

The 30% is extremely powerful though. On Ornn It's almost as is Ornn's W still has Unstoppable, because it reduces cc enough for the nerf not to matter on most cc.

DeathBurst1 votes

There is no change to Ornn W relative to Tenacity. Even when it was Unstoppable, remaining CC duration applied after the end of the effect, so even then Tenacity had an effect. The only thing that removing Unstoppable changed is that now you can't block knock-back/up with it, but Tenacity has no effect on that.

Azadethe1 votes

The difference is, if a Morgana Snares Ornn, her Q lasts 3 seconds. If you have 51% tenacity, you can W into the Q, and the snare will be out before W is over.

It's also useful for things like:

Veigar 's Wall

Annie 's Stun

Braum Stun

Evelynn 's Charm

Etc.

It works differently than unstoppable in that Unstoppable allowed the entire march to go forward, and Tenacity will only shorten CC's and potentially allow the march to continue forward.

Also, keep in mind Ornn prolongs Immobilize's on Brittle Targets. That creates a vast inequality between Ornn's cc's and his opponents on his knockups, especially if they do not have item 3111 While Ornn's knockups can reduce tenacity by up to 60%, which makes the knockups last 1-2.5 seconds, his opponent's cc does almost nothing.

DeathBurst1 votes

The difference is, if a Morgana Snares Ornn, her Q lasts 3 seconds. If you have 51% tenacity, you can W into the Q, and the snare will be out before W is over.

Yeah, that's right. But that's not a "difference", it's true whether or not Ornn is unstoppable. The W nerf changed absolutely nothing about that. Same for Braum and Annie stun, and I'm 95% sure it's also the same for Eve Charm. Tenacity was always useful, and the W nerf didn't make it more useful than before.

Veigar is an exception, but it's because contrary to appearances, his cage is not just a stun, it's a knock-down AND THEN a stun. You could walk through Veigar cage with ol' Unstoppable W, but you can't anymore, but again, it's an exception.

It works differently than unstoppable in that Unstoppable allowed the entire march to go forward, and Tenacity will only shorten CC's and potentially allow the march to continue forward.

But even without Unstoppable, the entire march will go forward if you're hit with a stun or snare. Being hit by a Morgana binding in the middle of your W won't stop you even with the current version. And the other way around, even with Unstoppable, it doesn't entirely block snares or stun. If you were hit by a Morgana binding with the old version, but without Tenacity, you were still Rooted for a couple seconds after finishing your march forward.

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