So.... I'm guessing we're going to see Taric/Sona Duos for awhile.....

Illabethe··15 votes·11,091 views

I'm sure most of NA followed the LCS Cloud 9 game today with Sneaky as Sona in a duo Support bot lane.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2quu0shtTM Where they boxed out a traditional team with an adc, simply by trading support gold, laying on 2 layers of heals, 2 layers of shields, 2 stuns, Team invuln......

(They even lost lane hard in CS)

Here's my question: Given that Riot's invested so much effort into nerfing nonsupport use of support items on other roles, why have they not simply implemented the rule: Cannot gain a benefit from another Support Trinket if you own a Support Trinket?

I mean.....

-they murdered junglers using Trinkets -they murdered adcs using Trinkets -they murdered mids/tops using Trinkets

So why haven't they murdered 2 supports using them at the same time?

I mean...... watch how the game went that I'm mentioning. Sona Taric

  1. They had twice as many wards as a traditional team
  2. They had two multi damage/soaking champions whose scaling is designed work on a budget income
  3. They had a "no escape" team to boost with those 2 supports
  4. They hard lost lane but carried the game
  5. At least 4 times during the game, Sneaky actually got questioned by the rear-kissing commentators because he made poor support decisions, one of which literally got him singled out solo and dead in .5 seconds. (But ofc since the commentators were biased, they made the criticism sound like not a direct hit.... like when Sneaky Crescendo'd through a VISIBLE jungle wall at nothing)

Note about OP: I'm someone who OFTEN plays outside the meta. When Evelynn could use item 3311 , I used it. I often jungle Zyra Morgana Pyke because I'm extremely good at it. I'll even occasionally sheen an adc, or build a tank mid mage.

But..... Most item interactions have been fixed so that gold income is directly proportionate to how your lane plays. That's different than "meta/nonmeta"

item 3401 item 3092 Has not......... And an LCS team is highlighting it.........

(P.S. I have nothing at all against Cloud 9..... I do generally support them when I watch more pro plays. So this thread isn't about C9 hate)

[sona-playing]

98 Comments

Chembaron Yamada18 votes

But this is impossible! According to the boards, you simply can't win a game without a marksman bot lane, they are "absolutely required", unlike any other class!

/s

Ayzev2 votes

So because there's one exception, the rule no longer applies at all?

Illabethe1 votes

I mage bot when I get it...... so do MANY.

Some play Yasuo too.

Terozu2 votes

Old Akali and Kat were both played bot occasionally as well.

Sir Saltarin1 votes

No they were not

PermaJinxed2 votes

Throughout MSI Sona+Taric were a thing.... The pros ban Taric to stop is because "lawl you're stuck with Sona now"... But in the Asian regions Sona+Pyke crept up as a massive win lane duo that lost Sona/Taric's late game unkillable nature and instead just had nuts damage.

In pro play Sona is not seen as the issue as she's considered the weaker of the two, but in solo... It's ABSOLUTELY Sona that makes this a thing..... That being said, I still don't think it's oppressive or nerf-worthy. (I'm enjoying the variance)

XJ999999999999996 votes

taric - 5 movement speed problem solved

Jimmy Rustles4 votes

Sona just needs to be nerfed

MrFawknSunshine4 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jimmy Rustles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T2ZPHbax,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2019-06-02T21:43:26.808+0000)

Sona just needs to be nerfed

that isnt why it works.

Jimmy Rustles3 votes

{quoted}

that isnt why it works.

Her being god tier doesn't help it any, and it would nerf it

MrFawknSunshine2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Jimmy Rustles,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=T2ZPHbax,comment-id=000100000001,timestamp=2019-06-02T22:08:59.834+0000)

Her being god tier doesn't help it any, and it would nerf it

but she isnt god tier

https://gol.gg/champion/list/season-S9/split-Summer/tournament-ALL/patch-ALL/role-SUPPORT/league-ALL/

this is all of supports played in all of pro matches this season

sona was picked 1 time with 5 bans and 1 win

yummi only been out what a patch in pro? and she has been picked/banned a total of 26 times

Illabethe1 votes

She has a Master Tier rating on stats sites.....

Although it's mostly due to this funneling strategy + Klepto.

MrFawknSunshine2 votes

that site you are using is for this patch alone in plat +

they have taric with an over all win % of 53.32% with a 2.09% pick rate and a 0.37% ban rate his only other role besides support is mid with a 0.30% pick rate

as far as sona she is only picked as support over all win rate of 54.15% with a 5.50% pick rate with a 0.48% pick rate

so both champs do have strong win rates , but their pick/ban rates are below average, average pick % is about 7 % same for ban

The Trent4 votes

I'm fine with this kind of diversity. If Riot pushed more duo support bot options like this I wouldn't see a problem. Sadly, no one does it better than taric, so there's no reason to pick anyone but Taric for it. I'd argue you could replace Sona with something like Yuumi.

Illabethe1 votes

Yuumi's kit doesn't offer near the mobility, poke rate, or shield rate that Sona does.

Her in lane questing literally falls 3 minutes on average behind Sona.

She also doesn't heal 2 people or apply shields to the entire team.

MrFawknSunshine2 votes

100% correct

but yummi also gets to be afked latched on to an ally taking no damage and not being targetable

however sona's auras are very short ranged and she has to legit be damn near front line to effect all teammates

Illabethe1 votes

Yuumi's latching comes at the cost of her ally taking ALL DAMAGE. You really need to learn this champ.... It's not cut and dry. hopping off often means death. Staying on often means death.

Sona's Auras are NOT that short range lol, and she only has to TOUCH an ally to apply them. I played her Season 7 with a 72% Win rate in 212 games. I never once had an issue hitting allies with auras. I did have issues poking occasionally.....

MrFawknSunshine2 votes

so what do u want nerfed on her?

cuz yummi being out 1 patch in pro play has a higher pick/ban then sona does all season

yummi still is able to cast abilities while latched to an ally

Illabethe1 votes

I don't want anything nerfed on a damn champion. I'm talking about support trinket abuse still being enabled in one specific way.

Yuumi only is impactful when she carries a snowballer who can "almost 1v5" who with her can accomplish it. That is why people ban her at high elo. No other reason. Because Yuumi usually will have a competent snowballer. It has nothing to do with her own ability to play/carry on her own.

MrFawknSunshine2 votes

regardless of the champ they all have the same amount of trinkets to use.

now your complaint would make more sense if they are both getting support items and getting the quest which gives them both access to 3 wards plus trinket

but this is fine. the enemy team just has to clear vision better .

nothing different then when lee sin use to get sightstone as a core item

Illabethe2 votes

YOU JUST PROVED YOU DIDN'T EVEN READ THE THREAD YOU ARE STALKING. THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THEY DID!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T2quu0shtTM

They literally built TWO SUPPORT ITEMS.

It's not just about friggin Wards. It's also about the fact the kits are designed to work on a budget (meaning higher base damages, and compensation defensively for being a support). It's about the fact that it enables hyperhealing that goes beyond grievous wounds. It's about the fact one team has to actually try to CS, and the other just pokes..... It's about the fact that Riot already prohibited ALL OTHER SUPPORT ITEM INTERACTIONS.

The only universe where it would be "Okay" is if Junglers, Mids, and adcs could still use Support items!

MrFawknSunshine2 votes

once again its not that big of an issue

Sir Saltarin1 votes

now your complaint would make more sense if they are both getting support items and getting the quest which gives them both access to 3 wards plus trinket

Bruh u okay?

That's exactly in what the 2 supp lanes are based, if you see a 2 supp botlane without 2 supp item they are trolling

nothing different then when lee sin use to get sightstone as a core item

Everything is diferent, because your Jng could buy a sightsone too as a standalone 800g item, the fact that now is locked on the Supp item mision prevents that from being the same as the example you use

Woodakoodashooda4 votes

This isn't about diversity. It's about items being used outside their intended purpose. And now, because it was done in pro play, we'll see it copy pasta'd in solo-duo queue regardless if bot lane is an actual duo.

It will be a repeat of the Miss Fortune support spam and I want none of that ever approaching my games.

So no, no to all of that.

Cotten Eyed Joe3 votes

MF support was mainly used to counter Zyra since Zyra was a pick/ban support.

Illabethe1 votes

It actually counters about 70% of the champ roster. Since bot lane generally has no divers, a low CDR E on MF is basically a foolproof Zoning tool, with the exception to Yi. It also restricts the amount of CS farming the opposing bot lane can do.

When I played it, I generally NEVER DIED entire games, while putting out more damage than both teams.

Exin01 votes

{quoted}

It actually counters about 70% of the champ roster. Since bot lane generally has no divers, a low CDR E on MF is basically a foolproof Zoning tool, with the exception to Yi. It also restricts the amount of CS farming the opposing bot lane can do.

When I played it, I generally NEVER DIED entire games, while putting out more damage than both teams.

But thing is you can pick anything you wish on bot there is no rule that it must be always marksmen or you must have support with you, stop see bot lane as ADC only and be creative.

Illabethe1 votes

That's true, but I'd love to see you Jarvan/Riven/Kha bot lane and somehow deal with both MF and Ashe..... Literally the only way MF loses this lane is if she gets within 500-600 range of a diver. Even if you laned vs a Diver, MF can just spam E and not poke, or use minions to Q.

Killing MF in a line is a very difficult proposition when she's not auto attacking. Killing MF roaming a map is another story.

Exin01 votes

{quoted}

That's true, but I'd love to see you Jarvan/Riven/Kha bot lane and somehow deal with both MF and Ashe..... Literally the only way MF loses this lane is if she gets within 500-600 range of a diver. Even if you laned vs a Diver, MF can just spam E and not poke, or use minions to Q.

Killing MF in a line is a very difficult proposition when she's not auto attacking. Killing MF roaming a map is another story.

Thats more about pick and personall skill and execution then MF broken nerf pls. Picking melee vs MF is taking more difficult path and be in disadvatage but ist doable looong age i have Rengar + Ivern bot completely stomp lane but it was about clever tactic and dont be greedy they litteraly make oponents commit suicide in brush over and over a imagine they tilted but should be rengar and ivern nerfed because they win and oponent lack skill to deal with them? I see this neverending QQ about bot lane problem blem of ADC player stucked in their part of game knowing only how to face another adc and moment this not happen their are done and cornered.

Illabethe1 votes

You will never ever win bot lane vs me as MF vs Rengar. I simply won't get near said bushes.

I will use E for vision, and stay back eroding your HP base. I'll also build a item 3025 instead of basing on AD items, to add susbtantial damage to MF while turning Rengar's kit against him, simply because he's VERY weak to armor and CDR spiking. At some point I would let him attack me, E me, flash back, and murder him.

Exin01 votes

{quoted}

You will never ever win bot lane vs me as MF vs Rengar. I simply won't get near said bushes.

I will use E for vision, and stay back eroding your HP base. I'll also build a item 3025 instead of basing on AD items, to add susbtantial damage to MF while turning Rengar's kit against him, simply because he's VERY weak to armor and CDR spiking. At some point I would let him attack me, E me, flash back, and murder him.

okeey, but what? i was never talking about some unbeateable chees anything and anyone can be defeated its just matter of how much effort you will need invest and if you are capable of changing your gameplay accordingly, many players dont do that and do same things, same builds, same plays over and over and over no matter what. And again i was talking about people demanding gut anything that can dare step into botlane and isnt marksmen because their are stuck in fantasy land where they are facing same 5 champion but are utterly lost if they get something different.

Illabethe1 votes

The fact most players will not adapt to a situation is definitely true. And, it's sad. You'd think they'd be more flexible after 4-6 years of play.

Serika Zero4 votes

The classic: I only watch na lcs therefore I'm the best and know everything.

Sona taric bot has been played in other regions for over a month now. Sona taric has been pick or ban the entire msi group stage. And was even picked in semi finals by g2 VS skt.

This strategy also has been working in solo q for over two months. But suddenly, because c9 played it in na lcs it must be hard nerfed???? And clearly now that c9 played it everyone will copy it. Even skt played it during groups in msi.... You know the champions of the region with 2 mil players, the team that won more than 1 world title.

But no, it's c9 the one that will make everyone play Sona taric so you got to nerf it.

Ηuawei3 votes

Unless a strategy becomes too dominant (ie theres no way you can win or you severely hamper your chances if you dont play duo support) i don't see a problem with bottom duo supports.

For one people cry about "game diversity" and "Rito pls let me build the way i want to" then you have these posts

"Unless its melee vs melee top, mage vs mage mid and adc / sup vs adc / supp in bot then its the end of the world and we must nerf diversity"

Illabethe3 votes

This strategy has a higher win rate than funneling Yi Mid. You literally can't get enough Grievous Wounds procced/damage to deal with the heal/shield output, and the 4 extra ward capacity per game period.

The only reason it doesn't see higher play is because people generally like to carry, rather than to heal.

IP Masquerena1 votes

Higher win rate? Sure, but she's barely picked.

Everyone told you that Sona only appeared in 3% of the games, the strategy although good has obvious counter play, otherwise you'd see a lot more of it and/or works mainly against certain types of teams.

The counter play is less existent in yolo que because of the lack of communication and everyone being "I'm the carry, 4x honor me", so making your team die less will result in you winning more, as many don't know how to play for objectives. Sona Taric was specified a good bunch of times that once Sona dies, her team loses a hella lot of pressure, but who focuses a Sona in yolo que?

Illabethe1 votes

She's at 5.58% Pick rate...... and the reason is obvious: Meta picks are hook champs/Mage carries. Trying to justify a build because it's not over 50% pick and requires 2 people to do it is just ludicrous.

Sona died ONCE in that LCS game. They communicated "Phenomenally."

IP Masquerena1 votes

You sure love to read to understand. Sona's pick rate in pro play is 3%.

And I love how you ignite that SKT1 game vs Invictus someone else pointed about. Sona Taric got stomped, yet you don't even reply to that.

May be it's not pick ban strategy because it's not actually broken? It was proven even in pro play that it can win but that it can also be defeated.

Illabethe1 votes
  1. I don't recall there ever being a SKT1 vs Invictus game like that. C9 Also got stomped..... IN LANE. So the question is, was the poster referring to in lane phase, or the overall game.

  2. https://lolalytics.com/ranked/worldwide/master/plus/champion/Sona/

This is Masters +

  1. It's not about being defeated or unstoppable! If you bothered to read; It's about the fact Riot has already disabled all other support Gold item interactions, except this one. It is unfair for a melee/poke bot lane to have 2 Support items activating, while a ranged + poke cannot, no other lane cannot, etc. The post is about the interaction, NOT SONA/TARIC
IP Masquerena1 votes

I'll simply focus on point 3.

They disabled the other gold income item interactions because they were toxic, this one isn't.

If the strategy has counter play, it was shown to lose to other early game strategies who actually end up the game early instead of letting the game go late, it's fair.

Unlike the other abuse cases, it has it's ups and downs, this one is a fair strategy. Just because other interactions were nerfed because of being toxic and having no interaction with the enemy and little to no counterplay (Karma + Klepto + Spellthief abandoning all cs), this one has it. Just because most of the counter play for it happens in champion select, doesn't mean it's not fair.

Illabethe1 votes

WTF are you smoking trying to claim a 4 income Sona is somehow fair when Karma with 2 incomes was "Toxic", especially considering Karma's underpowered kit? Even with a support item Karma was 46% win rate and under 1% Pick, and pulled garbage damage lmfao.

All you did was spew biased, unbacked, unsupported opinions.

P.S Yasuo Yorick Gangplank Quinn Sion Jax Illaoi all countered the Support item Karma.....

Also, Karma fell behind in gold from doing it...... nearly 600 gold behind by the quest's end.....

This Sona/Taric thing actually puts her ahead by about 700 g, and 2700 over the course of a game.....

JackMcSnipeyz3 votes

B-b-but, how can they possibly win without a OP marksmen?? I thought all marksmen 2 shot everyone at 2 items!

Cotten Eyed Joe2 votes

Sona-Taric is easily countered. Early game they have 0 pressure. They have no mobi and only one form of CC. If a jungle can get repeat ganks on them. They essentially are fucked.

F Ù Ń2 votes

Sona Taric is trash. Pyke Yuumi is the dominant strategy now

Elipo2 votes

I think riot should capitalize on this and make them a couple's skin line or give taric a dj skin that complemments dj sona's effects and music*[sg-jinx]*

Sewer Side1 votes

You think Boards would allow Riot to nerf Sona without staging another uprising?

Oh you sweet summer child.

MrFawknSunshine1 votes

once again its not sona that alone allows the taric/sona bot lane strategy in LCS /PRO play

and what would you like to nerf on sona?

Sewer Side1 votes

I mean, you’d have to nerf one of the two to stop the strategy from working and Sona is more likely a candidate since Taric does almost nothing early.

I don’t have an ideas for a Sona nerf, I’m in favor of enchanter reworks. Janna and Sona mainly get nerfs every season since inception and still come back to 53%+ winrates.

Illabethe3 votes

OR YOU MAKE IT SO YOU CAN ONLY GAIN THE EFFECTS OF ONE SUPPORT ITEM WHILE WEARING A SUPPORT ITEM......

Sona/Taric lane = Taric earns support gold + minion gold, Sona Earns Taric's Support gold plus her OWN support gold.

Neither would scale as fast or strong it this wasn't abuseable.

Neither champ needs nerfed....

Sir Saltarin1 votes

OR YOU MAKE IT SO YOU CAN ONLY GAIN THE EFFECTS OF ONE SUPPORT ITEM WHILE WEARING A SUPPORT ITEM..

That's the best answer to those kind of botlanes, there's no need to nerf Sona or Taric now, just fix the damm supp items

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