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The main reason jungle actually sucks

IP Masquerena··1 votes·1,958 views

So yea, I'm a jungle main and I'm tired of seeing "jungle sucks" topics with either no substance like "jungle sucks, I get autofilled there more than support, fix jungle" being the whole text of the thread, or other "xp sucks" etc.

No, these things aren't the reason why jungle sucks, the actual reason is the other 4 players in 90% of the times.

Why is that so? How many times have you found yourself invaded or in a conflict in the river, your laners had lane priority to help but they didn't? How many times have you tried to gank and your laner let you die then go in to take the kill? For me, it's a lot. Even yesterday had a Yasuo mid who made his point specifically clear that he won't help me because "I fed Mordekaiser" (I died once to him because I made a mistake, I popped Eve's charm half a second too fast), Mordekaiser started freely invading me, Yasuo and his duo Teemo (same club tag) wouldn't help, it wasn't tunnel vision or anything, it was just them willingly refusing to help.

There are other cases similar to that. Rengar has free reign, invades all day and this is how the chat looks: Evelynn "Can you guys help with warding, I can't keep everything warded by myself" Morgana "I don't ward unless Ezreal wards as well" Ezreal "It's not my job to ward, the support has to ward" Fizz "I AM WARDING" 0 vision score

(That's a game I had against a smurf Rengar)

Also had a game today as Qiyana jungle, Yasuo died to Morgana mid a couple times under her tower, asks for help, I tell him to stop pushing so I can gank, he replies with "no", asked why, "noob, you don't know to play Yasuo, you always push as Yasuo".

([zombie-brand-facepalm] )

And a lot of similar situations. Yes, junglers can be dumb as rocks, I've been on all sides of the spectrum, games where I had to bring back the game myself and win, games where I did all I could and still couldn't win, games where I've been carried, games where I was a laner and the jungler refused to gank then blamed the bot lane who was camped by Amumu, games where I got carried by a good jungler or games where I just couldn't do jack as a jungler, I've seen them all.

The main reason why jungle is the most impact-full roll is because of the advantage it can give OR take from the team. In both higher elos and lower elo the jungler can win or lose the game by itself, but the reason why differs depending on rank. There's a lot of videos on YouTube and such about how to jungle, how to path, how to etc (I do recommend Virkayu, he's an awesome and chill dude), the latest (at the time of writing) video from Virkayu points one of the differences between low elo and high elo. He specifically mentions camping the more volatile lane, whichever that one is. Yes, he did say to try to apply pressure in the other lanes to make it appear as if you're ganking all lanes, but your main focus should be that one lane you are camping, but as well all know, how does that go in lower elos? If a lane isn't winning by themselves, no matter how little they need your help or how little impact the enemy can provide later (say Mundo vs Nautilus top, Nautilus gets beaten), what will happen? He'll soon start flaming and inting because you don't help him. In lower elos, players don't want to be carried, and that affects the jungle the most. Can you win the match with just one fed lane and the jungler? Sure, it can happen in any elo, and in higher elos, players understand that better, they will let themselves be carried, they know they won't get ganks because it's better that the other lanes get more pressure and they will play it safe, yet in lower elos? Pff, it's like telling a Zed main WEQ half health the enemy at level 5 doesn't take skill, temper tantrums all over, they need to carry, they need to be ones with the high KDA, que the highlights for them, if they aren't in the spotlight, there's no point in winning.

All that impacts the jungle more than the other lanes, if your jungler is the scoreboard player, well, start praying, because you're fucked, but if it's laner, start praying you realize he's a scoreboard player before you try to gank for him, he'll most probably throw your advantage away just so he can get the kill.

Everyone's part of the same team. You're a laner and hate the jungler? Suck it up, you need them to win. You're the jungler and hate the laners? Suck it up, you need them to win. Everyone is part of the same team, and no matter how much you think they don't deserve to win or how right you are, you need the win, play as a team.

17 Comments

pikalov3r1 votes

i almost never get mad at jungler besides in a few occasions, and most are when i'm basically getting camped at top by top and enemy jungler. then he doesn't take advantage of that to take say the bot boss or help push a lane/gank. had a yi complain that mid and bot were losing but never once went to help them. (except after the enemies was kinda fed. which if he would've helped a little before hand while i was being camped top, prolly wouldn't have snowballed as hard.) or take bosses meanwhile i'm sitting under tower against a darius and kayn who's tower camping me for a good 3 minutes cause teemo can't really handle 2v1 early game but yeah that's an example of a time i'd get pissed at jungler

and yes ik i'm new but even i've seen how early ganks can completely snowball a game

IP Masquerena1 votes

I know the feeling.

Had such a game yesterday with a Rengar as our jungler. Enemy jungler kept camping me and MF in the bot lane, and Rengar who was AFK farming all game still had less farm than Amumu.

Asked him why he didn't gank at all, I got an "Kai'sa was too fed to be ganked", when I told him that there's also mid and top he could've ganked, I got the usual "F U noob". Some people don't like to be told they made mistakes that lost the game, heck, I don't like it either and I'm aware that I make them, even say it myself to the friends I'm playing with more than once because I know I fucked up and why and that's what pisses me off the most about my mistakes, I know why I fucked up and it annoys me because I could've avoid it.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

{quoted} No, these things aren't the reason why jungle sucks, the actual reason is the other 4 players in 90% of the times.

here we have one of those junglers who thinks he never makes a mistake, and just writes critisizm off as "people always blame the jungler".

no, junglers do stupid shit all the time, even into plat and diamond.

they invade or contest when their lanes dont have priority, and get collapsed on by enemy laners and the opposing junger because they didnt even check where the enemy jungler was before the invade or if their lanes would lose 3 minion waves stacked up infront of their turret just to come help you get one camp.

they gank lanes, get the kill, leave them in a shitty position for the enemy to establish a freeze after tping back in instead of staying 5 seconds longer to help their laner push in and to bounce waves off the enemy turret, and then they wonder why their lanes lose even when they gank.

they completely ignore top lane, or dont take windows of opportunity to gank in favour of clearing one more camp on the way.

they power farm until level 6 and complain that their lanes lose when the enemy jungler is a hyperagressive pick who just runs from one lane to the next to gank, and puts the lanes behind just by showing up and zoning them off cs.

youre not automatically a strategical genius for playing a very strategic role. you make a lot of mistakes too. thats why youre still stuck in silver.

IP Masquerena1 votes

No offence, but have you read everything?

If you think I'm someone who doesn't make mistakes, just read along, I even said I make mistakes, a lot of them even, or just read the reply I gave to pikalov3r.

Tho I just love how you took more time to search my rank than to read what I wrote.

Here's on paragraph you most probably didn't read, I highlighted some things for you.

And a lot of similar situations. Yes, junglers can be dumb as rocks, I've been on all sides of the spectrum, games where I had to bring back the game myself and win, games where I did all I could and still couldn't win, games where I've been carried, games where I was a laner and the jungler refused to gank then blamed the bot lane who was camped by Amumu, games where I got carried by a good jungler or games where I just couldn't do jack as a jungler, I've seen them all.

Most complains of "jungle sucks" come from lower elo players, and that's because the other 3 lanes impact the jungler a lot, just read the damn thing before "I stopped at this line, me so smart, no need to read"

preternatural1 votes

main reason jungle sucks is because these kids forgot how to use the map.

IP Masquerena1 votes

You imply that they knew how to use it.

JuiceBoxP1 votes

Honestly, i was about to agree that jungle sucks, but not because of the reasons you mentioned.

The other players have literal 0 effect whether jungle sucks or not. You can always play it differently when your team doesn't cooperate.

No, the reason jungle sucks is thanks to sheer exp nerfs it received over several patches.

Junglers like lee, xin , udyr and other level 2 fighters basically terrorized early game So rito nerfed the jungle as a whole so they nerfed early game jungle over and over and over until champs who are not level 2 fighters and don't have amazing waveclear, which is the vast majority of junglers became literal useless pieces of shit

ChaosLordMadis1 votes

How many times have I been pushed under tower with the adc (after having given over no deaths) and the jungle been close enough to gank the other bot lane.... It works both way's. Yes Jungle is having a hard time right now....but stop acting like all jungles are inocent in things. Because news flash they are not.

IP Masquerena1 votes

Never said they aren't to blame, I did say later in the thread that there can be dumb as rock junglers, but that's player stupidity not role stupidity.

But it does affect the jungle a bit more than the lanes.

ChaosLordMadis1 votes

{quoted}

Never said they aren't to blame, I did say later in the thread that there can be dumb as rock junglers, but that's player stupidity not role stupidity.

But it does affect the jungle a bit more than the lanes.

.> What you are complaining about is also player stupidity....

IP Masquerena1 votes

Exactly.

It's not XP nerfs, it's not the scuttler changes, it's player stupidity.

Yes, those changes and nerfs do hurt, there's no denying in that, but what they did most importantly was shift the jungle role into being quite the most team reliant after the support. Junglers can still carry, they can still output a good amount of impact, but if the laners fuck up, it can reach a point where it's over.

And that's what I'm trying to say, most people see those challenger vods on youtube or streamers who are playing 2-3 ranks bellow their actual rank playing jungle and hard carrying and expect it to be as it is there, but unless you're much higher than your current rank, you can't do that, you need the help of your team mates, and in lower elos, that's what really makes the jungle suck, if they troll you, it can be over.

ChaosLordMadis1 votes

{quoted}

Exactly.

It's not XP nerfs, it's not the scuttler changes, it's player stupidity.

Yes, those changes and nerfs do hurt, there's no denying in that, but what they did most importantly was shift the jungle role into being quite the most team reliant after the support. Junglers can still carry, they can still output a good amount of impact, but if the laners fuck up, it can reach a point where it's over.

And that's what I'm trying to say, most people see those challenger vods on youtube or streamers who are playing 2-3 ranks bellow their actual rank playing jungle and hard carrying and expect it to be as it is there, but unless you're much higher than your current rank, you can't do that, you need the help of your team mates, and in lower elos, that's what really makes the jungle suck, if they troll you, it can be over.

That is kind of how its always felt to main support XD

ANearMiss1 votes

yeah, feeder lanes are usually my biggest issue jungling. (I started off jungling and moved onto adc/supp/top cause how much it shifted game to game.) I actually remember a teemo flaming me and DCing when I was carrying like 15/4/? when i first started. We still won, f*** that kid.

The thigh guy1 votes

Jungle sucks because we have no real impact anymore. Sure we can tip a lane slightly. But we are so weak that at best we can be a cc bot.

IP Masquerena1 votes

We lack impact because most of our lanes can't use it, at least in my elo. I can gank a lane 3 times, get my laner to be 3-0 and soon after he'll still die and lose the lane.

I'm yet to see one laner who actually starts to snowball off of my impact.

O Fallen Scholar1 votes

Maybe focus on your own stuff and ignore idiots? Jungling is all about pressure. And if your decision making sucks then there's room for improvement. Who gives a shit how bad any1 is in ur team? It just drags u down. Just play the game and do ur best. And if you lose, take a break.

IP Masquerena1 votes

That's kinda the issue in lower elos, here's my stats from in-game in ranked on my 3 junglers, Vi, Kayn and Eve:

Eve:

  • WR 37%
  • all stats bar tower damage are higher than other silver Eves by a lot, with my utility score by 6 points higher (21 vs 15) and my vision score being 20 points higher (57 vs 36.7)

Just can't win on her enough, and it's not like I'm not making an impact, as I said, other than tower damage, everything else is higher, even the kill conversion stat is higher, it's just that when I play her, I get the the crappy teams mates and can't recover. Yes, I made mistakes, I lost games that I barely managed to drag back, but for some reason, I just can't end them or I get the bad team mates. You can check Eve history, yes I do have 5-10 games or 3-11, we're not all perfect, but as the in-game stats show, I'm putting the pressure, my Roam dominance is 3.40 vs 2.44 of others. Just can't transition it to a win either because I'm the only threat on my team and all they have to do is kill me to win or my team refuses to group.

Any tips on this are welcome.

Kayn:

  • WR: 55%
  • again, everything higher, especially the utility and vision

Can't really say much here, Rhaast dragged a hella lot of games back.

Vi:

  • WR: 58%
  • pretty much the same as Kayn.

Except that, both Kayn and Vi have worse stats than Eve, except for the tower damage and win rate.

Last season, my winrate on Eve was almost 60%, this one, I just can't win games on her and most of the time when it happens, I do my best. Last 2 losses on her: Anivia refuses to group, never staying with the team, Lux trolling as even the enemy team told her to stop and she didn't want to, finished 11-12-8. Game prior, finished 32-8-5, same as the Anivia, Ezreal refused to group and the enemy Vi would never use her ult on anyone but me, ensuring that Yasuo and Ashe get their's off on me as well, once I died, the team was over. Blitz wasn't hitting anything, Camille was having a bad game and Akali did all she could.

Yes, I could've played much better myself and I'm aware that one mistake from me lost that 32-8 game, I did my best to drag it back and I lost it, even with Ez refusing to group because he hated Blitz (yes, they kept flaming eachother all game), I made the game losing mistake.

I'm aware that Evelynn is strong, there's no denying, but in lower elos where players don't have the skill of a Diamond smurfing in Silver, she needs a bit of help from the team. Yes, if I were much better, I would've had a similar winrate to last season, and I'll improve, in time. But I gave the stats just to show and compare how 2 less team reliant junglers (they're AD, ofc they are less team reliant), even with lower in-game stats than Evelynn just win more by virtue of bringing more CC and tank stats, Eve's pressure isn't as impactfull in lower elos compared to high elos because people don't expect to get ganked anyway. Had a Yasuo once tell me that since I'm M7 I don't need help from him.

Can I do more in my games? Sure I can, there's always room for improvements, and I climbed from B4 at the start of the season to S2 currently and if I keep playing Kayn and Vi, I'll keep climbing, but it feels meh in a way, hence why I don't really play ranked. Those 2 are fun, I like them, but I want to climb with my fav champs and sadly, seems I can't and I don't know that to do. I impact the lanes, I help with dragons and barons, I do what I can, I try to counter jungle where possible, but in the end, when on Eve, I'm at the mercy of my team.

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