So.... why do people think its 'okay' for 'starter' champs to be purposefully not viable?

Paroe·Aug 10, 2016·3 votes·1,049 views

Ive been seeing a lot more of "warwick and ashe need to be gutted. theyre beginner champs" and even more of "garen needs to be weaker because hes a beginner champ". Why do people think that pricepoint and difficulty have anything to do with why or why not theyre viable? You dont see LB and zed, two of the most powerful assassins in the game and whom have the lowest usable skill floors, intentionally weak because theyre easy. You dont see jinx and lissandra intentionally weak, despite them being the newbie champions (litterally. theyre in the new account rotation.)

So can someone explain the logic behind why people have this thought that lower cost somehow = needs to be worse than higher cost?

40 Comments

ActivatingEMPAug 10, 20168 votes

Lol wut, since when was zed considered a beginner champ

ParoeAug 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Lol wut, since when was zed considered a beginner champ

When you go 10/0/6 as your first game with an assassin being a bruiser/tank main, theres a rather large issue.

Mid Nami OnlyAug 10, 20161 votes

not really, i've gone 10/0 as leona ap top before and it isnt exactly a "large issue". I dont really play mid lane (except on this smurf), but when I do, I'll stop any zed that thinks he can play zed because he's 'easy'. I really only lose to the zeds up in diamond. Youre just going against bad people so your perception of zed's power is skewed heavily

archerno1Aug 10, 20164 votes

{quoted}

When you go 10/0/6 as your first game with an assassin being a bruiser/tank main, theres a rather large issue.

Except most people feed with Zed their first 50 games. Zed is considered one of highest skillcap champs. As for Ashe, she is ADC, she requires almost as much skill as other ADCs (with exception of Vayne and Draven who require most).

Ya BoıAug 10, 20162 votes

lol its ur first game, try a little more games and you found yourself feeding until you get good

LU Vanilla Rice Aug 10, 20162 votes

I just want to point out that both Zed and LB are much more mechanically intense than what you say, and are definitely not recommended for beginners given their high skill cap and outplay style.

ItankyouAug 10, 20165 votes

Ashe Highest winrate. Nuff said. It's like you don't even play this game [zombie-brand-mindblown]

ParoeAug 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

Highest winrate. Nuff said. It's like you don't even play this game [zombie-brand-mindblown]

Its like you cant even read the thread. People are using pricepoint and ease to argue that certain champions should be gutted. Been seeing a lot of talk this morning in game from people using that line of thinking as justification to demand nerfs. the entire line of logic is twisted and hardly makes sense; if its easy and cheap to make pizza, you dont demand pizza be embargo'd.

ItankyouAug 10, 20161 votes

Winrate = Average player win rate over a large sample size right?

Ok that's the easy part, basic statistics.

Now if you look at ashe, she is easy to play right? So lots of people know and understand her kit because it was built for newer players.

Now if there is no skill cap on the champion that means the std deviation (or the variance) in player skill is low (lesser chance of outplaying someone else). Therefore, the winrate for this champion in particular SHOWS and PROVES that the champion is OP when the winrate is far above 50%. A champion like Draven that has a win rate of around 49% does not mean anything as he has a higher skill cap, for these situations showing higher skill grouped players and doing other tests shows that the champion is either OP or UP. (in dravens case the std deviation matters more than the win rate).

The jury is out bro, Ashe is broken, she is broken because this meta revolves around more around support abilities in bot lane (jhin, sivir, ashe, champs that don't need to be directly in the fight to be helping the battle; all of these ults are broken because ADC has been nerfed by a switch to assassin snowball meta).

Mid Nami OnlyAug 10, 20165 votes

you're in silver 5 and you're trying to talk about game balance.....

SiytherAug 10, 20163 votes

ur point is stupid what does ur rank have to do with game balance???????? Im bronze 3 and i gurantee i know more about it than u do. why u ask? i have a fuckin degree in game design. So let me tell u here and now ur coment about someones rank meaning that they cant understand concepts is wrong. do u think that everyone at riot games is high elo? i bet u that they are not. That being said none of your coments have anything to do with what the actual post is about. People whine about the "beginer" champs because they are easy. a lot of champs are easy, most of those are complaining because they dont play "easy " champs they wanna play the flashy ass champs that are harder and their skill isnt high enough. This is so true in low elo ppl only want to play high skill champs and they get crushed by the easy ones then the balance must be off. No your fuckin play is off. Sure some of the easy ones really need to be rewoked. A champs kit is not the only measure of how balanced they are or arent. Some ppl think warwick is to strong but all he really does is go in and die. Esy champs are made to be easy and flashy champs are made to be harder but more rewarding and that is the way it should be. It would be damn near impossible for riot to make evry champ viable in every elo. no MOBA can say that. This person argument is really saying why should riot make beginer champs worse just bvecause unskilled players cant play the harder champs that can crush. Lets make annie unviable because she can counter fizz and zed and leblanc (if played right) which are high skill cap champs, hell if it wasnt for some of these easy to play champs keeping the liikes of zeds in line(at least a little) this game would be more outta wack than it is currently. Downvote me if u wish but remember when you dis on someones ideas about gameplay or balance, just because your rank is higher than theirs, there is always someone higher rank than you think "this guy is a moron what a noob they dont know shit".

Mid Nami OnlyAug 10, 20162 votes

Rank is indicative of game knowledge, if you know how to play the game, your rank goes up. It's simple.
No, you don't know more about the game then me, otherwise you wouldn't be in Bronze. i think it's hilarious that the only people who say "rank doesn't matter when it comes to game balance" are low rank themselves
You need to structure your typing style, because it's obvious you don't have an actual degree in anything if you're typing like that

You are trash at the game and it's that exact "rank doesn't matter" mentality that prevents you from learning how to get good and understanding how the game works.

DryditchAug 10, 20161 votes

Rank is indicative of game knowledge, time spent, and ranked games played. It's not an indicator of whether you know how balance works.
You're probably going to ignore me because I'm bronze, but I'd challenge you to tell me the reason for half of the interactions between game mechanics or to explain why Riot thinks it's OK for some champions to be given high damage/utility gated behind a skill curve, while others (ie: Starter champions) are allowed to be fundamentally stronger, based purely on base stats and scalings, not their ability to get ahead or pull off more mechanically involved combos.

Rank matters, but only in so far as to suggest whether someone cares enough to devote their time to climbing.

LU Vanilla Rice Aug 10, 20162 votes

Dedication is a part of climbing, but it's not as big as you think. Many people play for a while and still can't climb very high, not because they aren't devoting enough time, simply because they lack mechanics, knowledge and/or decision-making in-game.

DryditchAug 10, 20161 votes

If someone plays for that long and "can't" climb, it's generally because of a lack of interest in self improvement. I was like that for a long time, playing champions one specific way, ignoring the reality of the game, and ended up refusing to improve in any way shape or form, thinking that spamming one or two champs over and over again without learning from my mistakes was going to make me better.

This season, I started paying a lot more attention to a few things, such as:

Strategies LCS casters talked about for my lanes.
Adapting my builds to more effectively handle the opposing team composition.
Ways to optimize my clear paths in the jungle

Doing that, I've been able to start my climb out of Bronze. Working full days doesn't give me a whole lot of time to play, but when I can play for long periods of time, I'm usually able to grab at least two wins in three games, which is good enough for me.

LU Vanilla Rice Aug 10, 20162 votes

Like I said, it's a part of it, but it's not a huge part in terms of the actual number of games played in ranked. The self-improving part is a big part, which is a form of dedication. But it still means they're improving their knowledge of the game. Which is a form of putting your time into League, but I should have been more clear, I meant the physical amount of time spent in League, not time spent improving and such.

Mid Nami OnlyAug 10, 20161 votes

Yes. And Game Knowledge goes hand in hand with understanding why and how things are balanced within the game. Also, you argue that rank only suggests whether someone cares to climb, but that's not entirely true. On my smurf (aermo) I played ranked while playing champion I don't ever play, and I hit gold in ~25 games. So that's me hitting gold without trying, just based off pure game knowledge. I wasn't even trying to climb, I wanted an account in silver so I can play with my friends. This is why I can definitively say that people with lower rank, and struggle to climb, MUST have some lack of undemanding about the game. If you can offer an different reason why people in silver-bronze can't climb I'd love to hear it.

Also, which "game mechanics" do you want me to provide reasoning for? The confounding factor in the scenario you offered is -reliability-. "Starter" champions' strength comes from the reliability built into their kit, while skill-curve gated champions are rewarded for successful plays, but otherwise have larger margin of error.

GaleWinUnleashedAug 10, 20162 votes

Don't forget there's also execution. It's possible to know absolutely everything about mechanics and strategy and still lack the coordination to pull it off. Don't immediately assume that Bronze means someone doesn't know anything.

Mid Nami OnlyAug 10, 20161 votes

Yes but being able to do the execution means you understand how it is to execute certain things. It's hard to gauge whether certain mechanics are harder than each other if you yourself cannot do them and FEEL how they are done. I'm not assuming that bronze = knows nothing, but I used it in this case because Zed is not a beginner champ lmao

GaleWinUnleashedAug 10, 20161 votes

There's most definitely a correlation between rank and game knowledge and/or balance sense, but there are exceptions on both ends. There are amazing players that would be terrible at adjusting balance, and there are rotten players that have a good idea what balance work entails. Mostly just keep an open mind.

DryditchAug 10, 20161 votes

I haven't leveled up my second account near enough to try and place in ranked, so I can't speak to how easy it is to hit gold on a fresh account. What I can tell you is that I used to play like a shitlord, refused to adapt anything I did, and basically dropped from S4 to B5 in a pretty horrid losing streak in S4 postseason.

My MMR was pretty shit, and I'm fighting an uphill battle to get out because I play champions that largely rely on my teammates getting ahead. I'm aware that playing carries is the best way to climb quickly, but I have more fun playing tanks and bruisers that are closer to being tanks. It's a playstyle that I enjoy, even if it's uncommon for teammates in low bronze to actually capitalize on advantages they're given.

I was a bit too aggressive in my last post, but very often, I see people in diamond and up that don't understand why %CurrentHealth is used over %MaxHealth in some cases, or why %MissingHealth is a viable and acceptable mechanic (though I will never accept Fizz' W as healthy for gamestate). I'm glad you're at least speaking from a position of knowing something about Riot's balance philosophy, and not just "filthy bronzies know nothing go home."

LU Vanilla Rice Aug 10, 20161 votes

I am not trying to insinuate anything or insult you by asking this, but what rank are you?

Mid Nami OnlyAug 10, 20161 votes

My main is currently Diamond 5, I've been sling-shotting through D3 back to D5 for a few months now. My main is Ziprodiel

SiytherAug 10, 20161 votes

you ppl that think that im bronze because im bad are a fucking joke. My typing has no bearing on anything because im posyting on a board full of dumbasses so therfore i must "dumbdown" anything that i do type. I dont have 18 hours a day to play this game nor would i wish to You are obvisouly a person whom has zero life outside league. You sir are a flippin moron by your logic no one can possibly have a degree in game design if they cant play league at challenger level. Lol go suck off ur mommies tit some some more you entitled ass hole.

Mid Nami OnlyAug 10, 20161 votes

you lack a rudimentary understanding of the game, deal with it and stop complaining like a child

MLDzXnRRRAug 10, 20164 votes

It's not about the cost, it's how hard are they to play. Ryze is 450 ip and most players couldn't play him well even when all his spells were targeted.

ParoeAug 10, 20161 votes

{quoted}

It's not about the cost, it's how hard are they to play. Ryze is 450 ip and most players couldn't play him well even when all his spells were targeted.

By that logic a LOT of champions should be gutted. Champions like Alistar Anivia Bard Caitlyn Darius Ekko Ezreal Fiora Graves Irelia Janna Jayce Leblanc LeeSin Lulu Lux Maokai Nidalee Renekton Shyvana Sivir TahmKench Taliyah Trundle Udyr Vladimir Volibear Warwick MonkeyKing Yasuo Zyra are extremely easy to start off with. Sure some have high skill caps, but when you can first time out of your comfort zone and get an A or higher, theres a rather large problem.

the entire concept that 'easy = unviable' is just.... bad. thats like saying sports is easy therefore every single athelete should only be paid living wages, and make less money the higher tier their team is.

Mid Nami OnlyAug 10, 20161 votes

no, just because you can first time get an A does not mean theres a problem. It means youre going against horrible people. If you can get a 60%+ winrate on a champion with 30+ games in Plat+ then theres a problem. Your logic makes no sense and you lack complete understanding of game balance

GlowdustAug 10, 20161 votes

So game balance is only known to players that are Plat and above? The rest of us (majority) who arent Plat have no idea? And those unranked players that have 4-5k games under their belts? Hmm they must not know anything either. I wouldnt say that because someone isnt Plat or higher means they dont know about it because truthfully, the vast majority of players in this game........are not Plat +.

xXxAltaïrrxXxAug 10, 20163 votes

So in ur opinion Lissandra, Zed and LB are on the same difficulty scale as garen?!

YSeT9iEzJKAug 10, 20161 votes

Try play Garen in high gold+ and tell me how easy it is.

xXxAltaïrrxXxAug 10, 20161 votes

[{quoted}](name=Garen CAN carry,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RsvLF6I3,comment-id=00040000,timestamp=2016-08-10T15:59:14.666+0000)

Try play Garen in high gold+ and tell me how easy it is.

I did, on my smurf(dont mind this acc, it wasnt mine).I think I was gold 2 on that acc at that moment.I played Crit Garen against Jax and I destroyed him.But I must admit that was 3 months ago.

AZzAr9391rAug 10, 20163 votes

Okay, point blank, if you think the champions are being used to their full potential in the games your playing, you're wrong.

JorenciceAug 10, 20162 votes

{quoted}

Ive been seeing a lot more of "warwick and ashe need to be gutted. theyre beginner champs" and even more of "garen needs to be weaker because hes a beginner champ". Why do people think that pricepoint and difficulty have anything to do with why or why not theyre viable? You dont see LB and zed, two of the most powerful assassins in the game and whom have the lowest usable skill floors, intentionally weak because theyre easy. You dont see jinx and lissandra intentionally weak, despite them being the newbie champions (litterally. theyre in the new account rotation.)

So can someone explain the logic behind why people have this thought that lower cost somehow = needs to be worse than higher cost?

No one says that... ashe is a 425 ip champ and has one of the highest winrates.

Mecha IncognitoAug 10, 20162 votes

I don't see any of that at all. The reason people want Ashe to be nerfed is because she provides a lot of utility and sustained damage that can be overwhelming in coordinated play.

Warwick.. man I haven't even seen this champion for like a year now. I don't think there's anyone that wants him gutted, they just want him reworked.

Price shouldn't affect viability, but it tends to (but not always, Ryze ) reduce the skill cap in champions. Champions have to be based around both the average skill level & the highest skill level, and if they highest skill level isn't that much harder to achieve than the average, their overall damage/utility/whatever should be brought down to compensate.

Otherwise, they'd end up blocking out a huge amount of other champions that are harder to play, because there would be no point in those champions existing if another champ did it just as well or better, with much less effort.

RequiemsfireAug 10, 20161 votes

I mean you could make an argument that easy champions should be weak but then there's champions like Blitzcrank or Soraka who are really strong as supports, or Tryndamere or XinZhao or Lux or Malphite who are all really good picks and really easy to use if not perfect to start playing league of legends with whose kits are fundamentally simple.

But unlike what's mentioned above, learning about Garen, knowing his strengths and weaknesses and understanding match ups is virtually unrewarding for the most part as he isn't a particularly strong lane bully and can sometimes actually be a burden to your time against a skilled opponent.

Some people complain about Garen's true damage and the fact he can chase you down and kill you if he got close. Well here's the breaker, Garen despite what people think is very kitable, he can be pushed away, he can't deal damage far away and if you took away his ability to kill, he would be utterly useless because there's nothing else he can really do for the team then dive onto the opposing team and if the enemy team has a kind of disengage like Poppy 's keeper's verdict or Azir 's Emporeror's divide, LeeSin 's Dragon kick or Tristana ' Buster shot then he has in fact been rendered useless regardless of whatever damage output he could have had and his existence in the game is moot. Without Garen's damage, Garen is just a meaty sponge with a silence.

GaleWinUnleashedAug 10, 20161 votes

It's not the level of the skill-floor that determines whether a champ must be left weak. It's the cap. If it's comparatively easy to reach the highest level of mechanical prowess with a champion, then the amount of power you unlock by reaching that cap must remain low enough to that it's justified by the simplicity. Warwick and Garen are two prime examples here: you click buttons and either run toward your opponent or away from them. No aiming; there's nothing you can miss or that the opponent can dodge once it's fired. Everything about these two champions beyond what I've just said is general gameplay and strategy that applies to every champion. Warwick and Garen have extremely low-skill interactions with opponents, so their power has to be gated from the get-go rather than being unlocked with skillful combos and maneuvers. The gating is different for each of them; Warwick has a difficult time reaching anyone, but does okay once he gets there. Garen can reach opponents reasonably well (although it seems weak right now), then does consistent damage over a longer period of time.

https://i.imgur.com/1HvNiEO.png?noredirect

AstôlfoAug 10, 20161 votes

It's not that they have to be not viable. It's that most of them are so easy they have a very low skillcap which means one really can't get better after a certain point.

AptestAug 10, 20161 votes

i have not heard the argument that 450 champions should be weak in years. i think only a very small and insignificant number of people hold this opinion.

it is a certainty that riot also does not think so. The following 450IP champions have all been considered top-tier for a duration, or are considered top tier currently:

Soraka - considered top tier annoyance for quite a while. Sivir - current member of the "OP trio" in competitive play Ryze - reworked for being stupid op.... again... poppy - yeah. about that. Kayle - season 3's ultimate and definitive answer to "league of assassins" Ashe - second member of "league of OP competitive ADCs" Annie - when you really want to beary the other team... as a support. Amumu - cursing soloQ since 1969.

more than half the picks in the 450 slot are either contested competitive picks, have been contested competitive picks for a long duration, or are just soloQ monsters for some long while now (looking at you, amumu).

the only champion that actually has arguments for being weak is Garen. The reason is, garen is a very simple champion. other champions have a lot more control. so when garen rolls into them he's got to deal with whatever they can dish out at their strongest moment, and in order to be strong he's got to beat that. so he becomes overbearing.