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Sejuani'd - Sona

RedCyclone··66 votes·5,205 views

What does getting Sejuani'd mean? It means when your champion becomes overpowered due to indirect balance changes (items, runes) and then Riot addresses it by nerfing the champion THEN they nerf the indirect changes later on, leaving a hollowed out champion what is completely useless due to the lack of foresight by Riot

Sona is currently under that treatment We start of preseason with Sona becoming a monster with the new runes, we all knew a nerf was coming and we were okay with it, Sona was at a 57% w/r and we knew that was too much Then we see her runes start to get hit Aery and Kleptomancy both getting hit on the first patch, these changes put Sona to a much more respectable 52% w/r, a position she has held for over 5 years But HERE COMES MORE SONA NERFS, before Riot even assessed how the Aery and Klepto changes would effect Sona, they roll out a devastating nerf to her Q that completely destroys her earlygame and forces you to play caster minion simulator But still, more nerfs incoming to the runes she uses, Manaband and Scorch get nerfed, as does AP values from going sorcery

Sona now sits in a very shitty position, she does only have a 49% winrate what doesn't seem too bad until you look futher into her stats -She has the lowest w/r of any support between 0-25 mins in a meta where the average game length is 23mins, even out of off-supports like Teemo,Trundle, Sion ect. -Her winrate at Platinum is 45% -Her winrate at Diamond is 43% -Despite being touted as a lategame hypercarry, many other supports are still much better then her lategame

This is the worst situation Sona has been in for over half a decade, she feels like complete trash to play now, she needs more money then a ADC to scale just as well as another support does from minute 0, Sona's a goddamn mess right now and it really salts the wound when we have much worse offenders getting love taps (Ezreal, Leona, MF) even though they were also offset from rune changes

201 Comments

Shadòw18 votes

dw sooner or later she will be back on her totally balanced 55% winrate

Daedric Etwahl20 votes

You're missing the point.

If you ONLY look at her overall winrate then people that don't play Sona think she's fine, except she's NOT. The first 25 minutes of a game are absolute HELL for the vast majority of Sona players. She's outclassed by absolutely everyone, and the only thing she had, her poke, was gutted and she was given nothing to compensate. So you're left feeling completely useless until about 3 items, but oops, most games don't wait up for Sona to get that far.

Sona's early game, around the first 25 minutes of every match, are trash tier and feel almost unplayable, which is only exacerbated by this snowbally oneshot meta. That isn't something you can see just by looking at an overall winrate.

Besides, a 48/49% winrate on a champion that is supposed to be simple, and beginner friendly as Sona is a sign that there's something wrong. We aren't asking for her winrate to be above average, we want to be allowed to actually do SOMETHING in lane anymore.

Shadòw6 votes

exactly the reason why all enchanters need updates

RedCyclone13 votes

I would not oppose to an update but that also means it will be on a backburner

I would not accept Sona staying in this state for however long it will take to update them You don't seem to get that outside of ripples, Sona has been viewed as pretty healthy in the game, she had a decent winrate at all elos and hardly generated QQ outside of ARAM (and obviously those ripples that made her OP) But as always everyone thinks that "don't keep Sona trash please" means "Sona needs to be buffed to the best top pick I need my free wins back"

Shadòw3 votes

buffs wouldn't be a problem and I never had an actual problem with the champ, but in the long term every enchanter sooner or later needs an update to actually make them have impactful decision making. this would not only fix the problem that they are either useless or OP because they are simply stat reliant, but make the support class more interesting overall to the players.

RedCyclone3 votes

No issue with that statement, I agree because Sona and Nami are basically the same champion (Janna and Lulu are the same) and there needs to be more there that separates them

Not exactly the point of the thread though, Sona is trash right now and we want this era of useless Sona to end ASAP

Daedric Etwahl12 votes

Right, but that's in the long term. Leaving Sona in this state to wait for a long term update would be absolutely awful

What makes it hurt even more is that a lot of ADC players don't seem to realize how badly Sona's been hurt by this. All I can do in lane is stand back and get max range Q pokes. I can't even auto anymore because they gutted the empowered autos, and you always get outtraded by everyone. Even Staccato doesnt feel worth the risk anymore.

But ADCs don't seem to realize this. I've been told so many times to "fucking do something" when they keep eating poke, and I'm doing everything that Riot has decided I'm allowed to do in lane.

RedCyclone7 votes

I have also noticed people getting pissed at me for being unable to hold my weight in lane, motherfucker I can't do shit until I get a tear and stack it a bunch

Heckin Support2 votes

{quoted}

But as always everyone thinks that "don't keep Sona trash please" means "Sona needs to be buffed to the best top pick I need my free wins back"

Please for the love of god Riot rework her! Shift the power around in her kit! Her potential to be an invoker is there, Riot just has to tap into that potential.

Penns4 votes

Meaning? "Her win rate is ~fine but its actually not because I dont accept scaling as a strength anymore. Also she isnt THAT easy to pick up, imo Sona and Lulu are some "harder" enchanters.

I mean she isnt that hot rn, but looking at the top supports, its pretty much just matchups Sona is supposed to lose. Especially the top 3 that also have an insane pick rate (nerf Aftershock when xd) https://i.gyazo.com/c2f974c41677bce9da9cebc048437cad.png

Daedric Etwahl7 votes

Maybe, Sona does have some depth to her, but she is (or at least was before these nerfs) a relatively beginner-friendly champion for supports, same as Garen, Amumu, Annie, and Ashe are for their roles. They have depth, but you can pick them up and play them reasonably okay.

Plus even vs other enchanters like Janna and Soraka that Sona is supposed to come out on top of, she still struggles because her poke was neutered so badly, and she can't dream of keeping up with the Soraka sustain.

NichtHurz3 votes

Yeah, in general she's very easy to just play, but very many people I see underestimate how squishy she is and how little self peel she has (before getting her 2-3 items). Sona is one of the champs I see people dying with alot, just because they can't seem to handle her being like the squishiest champ ingame (besides Morde without his shield up :p)

chipndip12 votes

{quoted}

Meaning? "Her win rate is ~fine but its actually not because I dont accept scaling as a strength anymore. Also she isnt THAT easy to pick up, imo Sona and Lulu are some "harder" enchanters.

I mean she isnt that hot rn, but looking at the top supports, its pretty much just matchups Sona is supposed to lose. Especially the top 3 that also have an insane pick rate (nerf Aftershock when xd) https://i.gyazo.com/c2f974c41677bce9da9cebc048437cad.png

When was Sona supposed to lose to Janna and Taric?

Her only good matchups on Lolalytics are mage supports and Karma. Any actual support champ stomps her right now.

Daedric Etwahl3 votes

Seriously, the only lane I feel confident I can matter in anymore is the rogue Ornn support, who somehow manages to be even more useless than me, but even that can get a bit dicey once he gets his ult

Lauchmelder3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Daedric Etwahl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Rs1Et6Qf,comment-id=00000001,timestamp=2017-12-22T14:44:10.832+0000)

You're missing the point.

If you ONLY look at her overall winrate then people that don't play Sona think she's fine, except she's NOT. The first 25 minutes of a game are absolute HELL for the vast majority of Sona players. She's outclassed by absolutely everyone, and the only thing she had, her poke, was gutted and she was given nothing to compensate. So you're left feeling completely useless until about 3 items, but oops, most games don't wait up for Sona to get that far.

I'm sorry but:

Boo fucking hoo. You literally described every goddamn lategame hypercarry in this game right now. The average game length is too short, it's simple as that. They don't need to buff Sona (if anything a rework would be needed), they need to finally go back to having games averaging 35-40 minutes or even longer. THEN we can see if she needs a buff.

Daedric Etwahl8 votes

Every other lategame hypercarry has some form of agency in their lane.

Sona , before these devastating Q nerfs, was a high risk high reward poke enchanter. She had agency in her lane.

Now, Sona has basically two options: Either throw rinky dink little Qs, and get outraded if she tries to auto, or sit back and be a W bot and try to be a poor man's Soraka. Sona is supposed to have some agency in her lane phase.

Yes, lategame hyperscalers have weaker earlies. But Sona's is even worse than that

Lauchmelder2 votes

It's easy. Rework her.

Daedric Etwahl8 votes

"Easy"

lol you have a pretty funny definition of easy

And while I wouldnt be opposed to a rework, that would take time, and I am NOT okay with leaving her in this sorry state until Riot would get around to that

RedCyclone6 votes

Every "hyper scaling champion" in the game atleast has a tool to have some defense against being completely useless in the early phases of the game, also a lot of these hyperscaling champions have incredibly good earlygames like Twitch or are champions who scale so fast all they need to do is get 1 item like Vayne Also lets not forget Sona is a SUPPORT, if a support is to have these scalings then they need to reach their powerspikes much faster, they are a support and do not scale anywhere near as fast as any other class, where some champs are restricted for 10 or 15 minutes to deal with their bad earlygame, Sona needs a minimum of 30 goddamn minutes, it's too damn long

With Sona's early now it's a case of -I can't do damage -I can't take damage -I can't support as well as any other support -I can't get money to scale -I can't do anything

It's boring as shit to play and is just stressful to deal with in games where even if you are not the one feeding, if you encounter a fed enemy (bonus points for assassin) before 30 mins you may as well just stop playing because there is no chance in hell you are ever going to scale to be useful when you have someone on the field who can just wipe you out because you have such pathetic tools to defend yourself with

Lauchmelder2 votes

{quoted}

Every "hyper scaling champion" in the game atleast has a tool to have some defense against being completely useless in the early phases of the game, also a lot of these hyperscaling champions have incredibly good earlygames like Twitch or are champions who scale so fast all they need to do is get 1 item like Vayne Also lets not forget Sona is a SUPPORT, if a support is to have these scalings then they need to reach their powerspikes much faster, they are a support and do not scale anywhere near as fast as any other class, where some champs are restricted for 10 or 15 minutes to deal with their bad earlygame, Sona needs a minimum of 30 goddamn minutes, it's too damn long

With Sona's early now it's a case of -I can't do damage -I can't take damage -I can't support as well as any other support -I can't get money to scale -I can't do anything

It's boring as shit to play and is just stressful to deal with in games where even if you are not the one feeding, if you encounter a fed enemy (bonus points for assassin) before 30 mins you may as well just stop playing because there is no chance in hell you are ever going to scale to be useful when you have someone on the field who can just wipe you out because you have such pathetic tools to defend yourself with

There's 2 things here:

1.) I have been telling you guys, Sona needs a rework. Her kit is outdated as hell.

2.)

Also lets not forget Sona is a SUPPORT, if a support is to have these scalings then they need to reach their powerspikes much faster, they are a support and do not scale anywhere near as fast as any other class, where some champs are restricted for 10 or 15 minutes to deal with their bad earlygame, Sona needs a minimum of 30 goddamn minutes, it's too damn long

Let's also not forget that a support shouldn't go around oneshotting squishies if the game went on for long enough. That loops back to my first point: She needs a rework.

RedCyclone5 votes

And to the rework statement, sure fine, put her on the rework list But DO NOT keep her in such a shitty state, because we all know Sona can exist in a good state of not being over/underpowered

I don't want to hear excuses of "Sona is hard to balance right because she is either too OP or too UP all the time", because that excuse is bullshit, Sona has been one of the longest standing champs at a balanced winrate outside of certain updates then after some fine tuning is right back to being in a good spot again

Lauchmelder2 votes

Yea.. I wouldn't call ~53% Winrate for over 1.5 years THAT balanced, but whatever.

We both know that Azir could've been balanced around a 48% winrate as well, but leaving him in the dumpster until his "rework" into a walking gimmick was easier.

RedCyclone4 votes

Azir is one of the highest skill floor champs in the game, his winrate is so low due to being so difficult to begin playing with For the opposite reason Sona had a over average winrate

you basically contradicted yourself with your statement

Lauchmelder1 votes

Reading comprehension mate. We're talking PRE- REWORK Azir not current one. I contradicted myself in your twisted way of seeing what I said. I didn't in the way I actually said it.

Daedric Etwahl3 votes

Azir does (or at least should) have a lower winrate in Sona, pre rework or no. Sona is one of the lowest skillfloor champs, easy to pick up and do serviceably well with. Azir is the opposite extreme, probably the hardest champ in the game to play well.

If a high skillfloor champ has a high winrate then that means that they're so strong that even newer, less experienced players are performing well, and that usually means the mains are flat out stomping.

Lauchmelder2 votes

Jesus Christ stop playing dumb.

But DO NOT keep her in such a shitty state, because we all know Sona can exist in a good state of not being over/underpowered

That's what he said. And I responded with how Azir was at such a shit stage for 6 months until they finally give him a (garbage) "rework".

I'll just put this Sona bullshit into my circlejerk tab, cause that's what it is. 49.5% Winrate according to leagueofgraphs (platinum+). "muh Sona's so weak" my ass.

RedCyclone5 votes

Oh yeah, Like Azir has previously held a respectable winrate for 5 years...oh wait

Azir isn't even comparable, when he was good he was too good, he never stayed at a decent winrate, it was either the extreme of being 55+ or -47, Stop pretending that Sona has had the same history as Azir, it's just fucking dumb

Lauchmelder2 votes

"Ermagerd, Sona's at a normal winrate now, she has been gutted"

Circlejerk. I'm not even gonna respond to you Sona onetricks any more. You're not interested in balance anyways.

RedCyclone5 votes

"oh man my stupid statement is up to scruitiny because it's batshit insane, better just call them circlejerks to show I am the better person here"

Just, fuck off man...

Daedric Etwahl4 votes

You're ignoring the point at hand. If you just look at Sona's overall winrate by itself it LOOKS okay, a little on the low side, especially for a beginner-friendly champ, but probably nothing crazy.

But if you actually take two seconds and look a little deeper you'll notice that the first 25 to 30 minutes of a game is absolute TRASH for Sona, for worse than any other hyperscaler right now. It's one thign to have a weaker early game. It's another thing entirely to be completely helpless to do a goddamn thing , despite being THE FUCKING SUPPORT.

Azir and Sona are not comparable in such a way. One is a carry, the other is a support. One is among the lowest skillflorr champs, the other is probably the highest. You can not compare them in such a way.

You clearly don't actually play Sona, or else you'd have some semblance of understanding what the actual problem everyone is upset about is.

nice table1 votes

sona isn't balanced because she has a weak early game? :^)

Daedric Etwahl1 votes

Having a weak early game in exchange for a strong lategame is balanced, but they have to be balanced properly. Sona's early game is WAY too weak at the moment.

nice table1 votes

and her late game is way too strong, if you buff her early without compensating on late she will become broken again but i'm fine with her being strong early as long as it doesn't mean shes strong at every point in the game.

RedCyclone1 votes

It's almost as if they should have nerfed her lategame instead of her earlygame

nice table1 votes

well to be fair her early game was way too strong, i think smaller nerfs to both early and late would have been ideal

RedCyclone2 votes

Sona's earlygame has been bad for a while now, only at the start of preseason it was good since the removal of MR and some runes being busted

It was really not the right thing to hit, it has made Sona a chore to play now and is the most uninteractive she has been in a long time, she doesn't even want to interact with her laner anymore because they rape her manabar

Daddy Ants2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Daedric Etwahl,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Rs1Et6Qf,comment-id=0000000100040000,timestamp=2017-12-23T07:40:07.476+0000)

Having a weak early game in exchange for a strong lategame is balanced, but they have to be balanced properly. Sona's early game is WAY too weak at the moment.

Games don't even reach late game anymore.

Most games are 25-30 mins.

Daedric Etwahl13 votes

Holy moly people are really clinging onto my "Caster Minion Simulator" phrase

But yep, I was pretty upset with Riot from the moment the Q nerfs went up on PBE, and, as you said, they were posted before the Aery nerfs even went live, let alone before they could be assessed. Riot even admitted they probably went overboard with Sona, but instead of reverting the last Q nerf (or hell even one part of it) they decided we'll have to deal with it over the entire holiday break.

RedCyclone12 votes

It really sums up how pre 25 min Sona feels now very well

Either that or "WHERE THE FUCK IS MY MANA BAR?"

Yeah, the real sting is that this is not even going to get addressed until January

Darkeus11 votes

I think "WHERE THE FUCK IS MY MANA BAR!" and "Caster Minion Simulator" are both quite descriptive of her situation right now. Lol.

item 3070 [sona-playing] item 3070

Mimikÿu8 votes

1000 constant posts about the sona nerfs later and riot still doesn't respond to any of them [sg-soraka] Riot pls

Davaken6 votes

Former Nunu main here to tell you that it could be worse [zombie-nunu-bummed]

RedCyclone5 votes

We are aware of other outliers in worse situations, Sona could easily be in the same boat as Garen of being alright at low elo but complete trash at highers ( i guess she is now ) because of the simpleness of the champion

But it's the case that she's been fine for a long time now and been in a pretty well balanced situation, it wouldn't be that difficult to put her back in that spot instead of condemning Sona to high elo limbo forever

PaladinNO4 votes

Old, but apparently still relevant:

https://img00.deviantart.net/a79e/i/2015/073/2/6/how_i_feel_when_my_main_champion_is_picked_in_lcs_by_kahr_noss-d8lnzwz.jpg

BarbaJhini2 votes
  1. Sejuani became overpowered due to a rework and not indirect balance changes.
  2. Before preseason hit she was already amongst the best support (probably the best with taric after janna got nerfed)
  3. Her win rateo dropped drastically not only because of her nerfs but also because of indirect changes
  4. MF got her E nerfed, lethality was nerfed (she builds lethality so an indirect nerf), sorcery got nerfed giving her less ad, scorch was nerfed (pretty harsh as her E was a nice poke tool also because of that) Manaflow band got nerfed, Miss fortune E costs 80 mana which made that rune useful on her.
  5. Ezreal has sucked long dicks for all the season, coming back only during last patches as a jungler and he got better thanks to: 1- tear stacking faster 2-klepto helps him get his powerspikes earlier at the cost of having no rune late game 3-Poke becoming stronger as there are no more base runes for armor and mr He did get no buffs and become suddenly too strong, totally different from sona's case and now he got his attack speed and Q nerfed and they already announce that after the break klepto will get some changes. So it's basically like another planned nerf, he dropped only a bit in win rateo as all the other adcs basically got nerfed with runes change that did not impact him (press the attack and sorcery tree). Everyone deserve his time to shine, now it is ezreal time and not sona, it will change soon as the meta always does, no reason to complain. There have been complaints on adc being too strong for months, now that they are getting nerfed none is saying anything like thank yu riot or something like that. Why cannot people enjoy 1 meta but only complain when their main is weak.

I know what you are now thinking "All these nerfs (lethality aside) also impacted sona, as i said in n.3 This means sona did not get that bad of a treatment if you also consider she has been meta for half a year, she will soon get a buff by the way, do not you worry child.

Flemman2 votes

pretty sure sejuani'd come from the time of cinderhulk birth, not from the tank update :)

another champ who can be use as exemple instead of sej is skarner, who is allowed to be a S tier pick 1, maybe 2 week a season even when it's tank heavy meta >-< (like, they never try to balance him on several patch)

Troll for Trump1 votes

She's bad during early but good during late. Games ending quickly is a problem that applies to champs as a whole that leads to lategame hypercarries generally being bad in the meta.

The nerfs and all are a little harsh, but Sona's been good for a while.

Sona is a complete mess right now relative to how she's been in the past, but there are still champs doing worse. Doesn't mean that she should be ignored, but that it's ok for her wr to dip low for once

Daedric Etwahl2 votes

The issue most of us have isn't the winrate (though that has fallen a lot, sadly) it's that her early game is really, really bad and there's almost zero control Sona has over it anymore. She used to have some agency, but it's almost all out of her hands now.

Troll for Trump1 votes

She's bad during early but good during late. Games ending quickly is a problem that applies to champs as a whole that leads to lategame hypercarries generally being bad in the meta.

Repeating what I said before.

It's a heavy snowball meta. Lategame champs generally do poorly and early game dominant champs are popular.

Daedric Etwahl2 votes

While those lategame champs generally do poorly (except Vayne right now, I think?) They still are able to do something for themselves before they take off and go nuclear.

Sona doesn't have that anymore. Either Sona has her all her core items and has gone nuclear, or she doesn't have them and is a glorified caster minion. There is about zero in between at this stage. Almost any and all agency in how lane goes has been completely taken away from her. Her poke has been neutered, her sustain is a joke, she has zero peel and disengage pre-6, no mobility, and ist he squishiest champion in the game.

Sona's only option the first 25 minutes of every match is to pray that the enemies don't take off, and the game goes on long enough that she actually gets to play League of Legends.

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