Tahm needs counterplay.

lolipopevelynn·Nov 20, 2015·86 votes·5,251 views

A) he cant eat an ally if that ally is CCed. he is pretty much a walking for his teammates.

B) you should be able to knock someone out of his stomach if you deal enough damage in time OR if you hit tahm with hard CC. how its done doesnt matter, what matter is that someone should be able to save an ally from kench stomach or knock out an enemy from his stomach.

C) him being able to flash while his own ally is in his stomach is too much, however this can s tay if B is taken into consideration and a target can be knocked out of his stomach

98 Comments

MannysmokerNov 20, 201526 votes

Everyone above Diamond elo knew his kit was broken, hell even the bronze players from PBE were warning riot about that guy, TahmKench feels so oppressive to play against, is like playing against Blitzcrank he can miss 500 hooks and only matter if he lands one and you are dead...

TendajiXNov 20, 201510 votes

I wish they listened to the pbe for once.... It seems like they always release things we warn them about and everyone is like " Come on PBE players, you let this through!?" "We tried T_T"

EcchiOtakuTMNov 20, 201513 votes

I'm pretty sure they listened to PBE about skarner thus making him a 72% win rate

And with garen who wasn't past the point of op legend however was a walking damage dealer who just didn't care what you did.

darius was fine after the buff on release that raised his heal to 12% missing hp(cap 30) but people still kept complaining he was too weak thus he went to a 15% heal

I don't know I feel like riot wants to listen but every time they did it made things far worse than anything so they want to take their time this time. Although trust and believe bug fixes shouldn't be something they wait to fix that stuff should be hotfixed immediately IMO.

DecritNov 20, 20154 votes

Honestly i think Riot listened to feedback about Tahm too.

This is why he was buffed after release... many complained he was underpowered!

VerxintNov 20, 20151 votes

My friend picked him up day 1 and called that he was a bit OP.

Riot buffs him like 5 times and look where we are now.

What I find funny is how most people complain about devour's damage when that's actually the most balanced part of his kit when it comes to the numbers. The real culprit is the Q and the ult passive.

Battlecast SonaNov 20, 20152 votes

I feel like the real culprit is the fact that Tahm can save anyone on his team with a single point in a point and click non-ultimate ability. It's basically like a combination QSS and Zhonya's at level 1 for someone on his team.

Tahm's damage is only hailed as ridiculous because he gets to triple dip on his HP - he has 2 healthbars thanks to his E and then he ALSO gains additional damage based on his HP. I mean, Vlad wasn't allowed to have his AP = HP = AP passive without heavy nerfs, and Jax lost a bunch of free stats a few patches ago, but Tahm is allowed to get triple benefit for building HP?

My Waifu VanillaNov 21, 20151 votes

iirc Jax GAINED more free stats a few patches ago on the ult.

A Chaotic MindNov 21, 20151 votes

Last time they listened to pbe we got the juggernaut patch... Oh and btw Tahm got buffed after many complaints about his weak state soon after his release and was considered balanced untill pros played him

Zero EngineNov 20, 20151 votes

[deleted]

MelledoneusNov 20, 20151 votes

You obviously haven't played against a good Blitz.

SolusInCadereNov 21, 20151 votes

you obviously haven't played against a bad one, at least not well. Blitz' Q is on a long as cooldown. And he loses a ton of CC and playmaking potential without it. When his Q is down from a miss is when you harass him and his carry in lane, beucase you don;t have to hide behind minions unless his Q is up. That's the issue with people who say blitz is OP, that always act like he has his Q ready to roll, this is not the case.

HayRossNov 20, 201519 votes

Cover yourself in Necco wafers and candy message hearts. That should do the trick

Dominick DestineNov 20, 201515 votes

In my opinion, the best way to balance Tahm Kench would be to make him slow as hell.

Chunk his movement speed down to 325 (From 335) and then he'll have some actual counterplay.

The Yetii RiderNov 21, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Dominick Destine,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RpLb2dG3,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-11-20T00:48:55.942+0000)

In my opinion, the best way to balance Tahm Kench would be to make him slow as hell.

Chunk his movement speed down to 325 (From 335) and then he'll have some actual counterplay.

It's very rare for melee champions to be that slow.

Tahm is having the range of his auto lowered. Should hit his sticking power a bit.

My Waifu VanillaNov 21, 20151 votes

Or they could just do both since that clearly balances very strong 3 hit mechanics right? looking at you

NGNL AsianNov 20, 20159 votes

True, Tahm is like unkillable. I fought against a fed one once and it soloed me(Nasus) and 2 other teammates (Lux and Heimerdinger). It can be a tank support while doing a lot of damage, he can multitask at once, so I thought he needs nerf or rework.

Celeste BenalNov 20, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=NGNL Asian,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RpLb2dG3,comment-id=0005,timestamp=2015-11-20T02:48:44.589+0000)

I fought against a fed one once...

And you expected to win? That would happen vs anyone.

JoshehehNov 20, 20152 votes

when i 3v1 a fed support i expect to win.

MelledoneusNov 20, 20151 votes

You need to see a fed Sona. That is some scary stuff.

Remlap1223Nov 21, 20152 votes

I don't care how fed Sona is, a light breeze could OHKO her. Tahm does even more damage (somehow) and gets to be one of the tankiest champions in the entire game.

BorblandNov 20, 20159 votes

Actually Tahm Kench was balanced at his release, and no one complaned about him.

I dont know why Riot decided to give him those monstrous buffs after anyone was saying "Yep, most balanced champion on release since Velkoz ".

Anyway, if he was balanced once, that means he is OP, not broken, a broken champ is something like Yasuo which is either too weak to do his job, or a monster.

Dunkrius2gNov 20, 20157 votes

Want counterplay that is temporary? The Banning Phase.

The nerf i propose is this. Make his devour 20 sec cd and no cdr can be applied to it.

lolipopevelynnNov 20, 201515 votes

{quoted}

Want counterplay that is temporary? The Banning Phase.

The nerf i propose is this. Make his devour 20 sec cd and no cdr can be applied to it.

"just ban him" is such a moronic argument to make for a champ that is OP. you only get 3 bans per team, 6 bans total. there are too many problematic champs to ban them all and perma banning a champ is extremely oppressive to players that actually like playing the champ beyond the fact that he has a powerful kit.

Dunkrius2gNov 20, 20155 votes

that is_** temporary**_

That is the keyword. He is op. You want nerfs we want nerfs. how to get it? wait for Riot. Riot wont hotfix him at all. What is an actual way to deal with this is to have 8 bans but riot don't care.

Celeste BenalNov 20, 20153 votes

Devour CD is 14/13/12/11/10 seconds. And can only be activated on enemies if he has 3 stacks of Acquired Taste on them.

Don't want TK eating you out? Stay the fuck away from his fat immobile ass. Think of him as Fat Bastard from Austin Powers.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/austinpowers/images/c/c8/Fat_2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120510163813

doiminat0r3600Nov 21, 20152 votes

Caitlyn : Im keeping my distance with my AA range. TahmKench : Oh baby im coming for you lands Q Caitlyn : slowed : uses flash and hits you 2 times with AA and eats you Announcer: An ally has been slain!

SolusInCadereNov 21, 20151 votes

dude, Cait was a bad example. She now has like 100000 range on her AAs, so flash won;t do much for ya.

doiminat0r3600Nov 22, 20151 votes

Cait was a good example because it shows that Tahm's Q outranges her AA. The only reason she would even consider to be a bad example is by her net being used as an additional escape.

My Waifu VanillaNov 21, 20152 votes

But his Q is a medium range "skillshot"! Wtf Phreak.....800 range is so medium I swear.

Seriously though he shouldn't be able to nearly perma slow you without cdr (70% slow means he is getting in melee range and you have 4 seconds of no slow to get out of 800 range to avoid the next one since that shit is wide af to dodge at anything under 500 range) and his passive should also not last an entire 7 seconds. Land a Q on someone and you have efficiently taken them out of the fight for 7 seconds if they are melee....I could see maybe 4 seconds that way it can still be stacked solely by Q if you have max CDR but that is it.

Odyssey85Nov 21, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Celeste Benal,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RpLb2dG3,comment-id=00040001,timestamp=2015-11-20T21:14:37.524+0000)

Devour CD is 14/13/12/11/10 seconds. And can only be activated on enemies if he has 3 stacks of Acquired Taste on them.

Don't want TK eating you out? Stay the fuck away from his fat immobile ass. Think of him as Fat Bastard from Austin Powers.

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/austinpowers/images/c/c8/Fat_2.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20120510163813

I know right, seriously. 20 sec on all levels? might as well increase Thresh's lantern as well since saving allies is too OP. While it is annoying, just don't let him focus on people, focus his adc and then he is forced to use his w on his adc, and then you can kill him if you really want to. Also, he only has about a 52% win rate, so he isn't a crazy champ to play against. Just play smarter. "Call me king, call me demon. Water forgets the names of the drowned." - TahmKench

AuroramancerNov 20, 20157 votes

Well, a couple of those proposals you suggested are pretty nuanced, and I'm not sure they'd do the trick.

My problem with Tahm isn't that he saves his allies very well, it's that he disables enemies way too hard and often.

I'd suggest the following: 1.) After stunning a target with Tongue Lash, their stacks of An Acquired Taste are reset 2.) After Tahm spits out an enemy champion, that champion has a debuff (maybe called Unsavory or something?)for 4-ish seconds. This debuff prevents stacks of An Acquired Taste from being applied, and makes Tongue Lash's slow decay over the duration.

It's punishing enough to be caught by Tahm's Devour, but to be perpetually in his grasps is unfair. I think my proposed changes would give Tahm's enemies some breathing room after he's caught them.

HaugheyPuck99Nov 20, 20152 votes

I can see where you're going with that first suggestion, but that would hurt his kit waaay too much. Usually you have to use the stun to be able to catch up and eat someone after you got the stacks on them, but having to reapply the stacks again? That's hitting someone 6 times before you can eat them. And if he decides not to use his Q for the stun when chasing someone to eat them, then that just adds a penalty to him for getting max stacks on someone because it discourages him from using his only ranged ability.

I like your 2nd idea though.

ValexforNov 20, 20151 votes

I think his first point is actually quite good, as Tahm, you shouldn't use the stun to eat the enemy, that lacks counterplay since the stun is so easy to land, you should instead use the slow (it's more than strong enough) to apply the 2nd stack and the hit and devour, that would have soem counterplay since the devour is a point and click skill. The problem with Tahm is that his kit is just an unstoppable chain, unliky other champs with similiarly empowered skills, he doesn't need to choose between which one he wants to use, he can just use both of them. If he would have to get either the stun or the devour, he would be way more balanced and fair.

That said, you are correct too in that during the stun, you won't be able to apply again the 3 stacks before the enemy can escape, you usually will have the time to hit him twice then he would bea able to get out of range if he's good and, while later in the game you would have q off cd or maybe be able to stack him thanks to the bonus AS, early game it might be a bit frustrating to see an enemy escape with 3 stacks, but that would still be unable to justify the ability to chain stun + devour, since that doesn't have any counterplay and qss isn't an acceptable counterplay by itself (like for any champion that's countered by it).

HaugheyPuck99Dec 4, 20151 votes

Exactly, being unable to apply the 3 stacks again most of the time is why I think consuming them would be a bit too heavy of a nerf. They could probably justify that by increasing the stun duration or his base AS or something, but I just feel like there are other areas of his kit that would be better to hit. I saw one suggestion by a Rioter (can't remember who) that said maybe just make it so that he doesn't get the shield on his E until the end of the animation. Or maybe actually reduce his tongue's hitbox, it feels way too easy to land sometimes.

Or maybe I could see the stack consuming be justified if it didn't consume ALL of them, maybe only took away 1 or 2.

ValexforDec 5, 20151 votes

Well, the problem actually comes when he can Q you twice early both slowing you and stunning you, making you unable to escape, this way, he can't chain a slow and then a stun into his devour since he wouldn't be able to devour you, he shouln' be able to acces devour this easily early game, he should use his q as a slow to reach you and AA you since Q has a tremendous slow that doesn't decay. His amin problem thogh is that he can max Q without losing anything, so he gets that tremendous power too early, getting effectively 2 power spikes (One with max rank Q and the other with R), opposed to other champs who usually either get 1 or get 2 weaker ones (like Renekton, he hits a power spike at level 3 because he can take all 3 skills when other champs usually get 2 by that point, and then he gets a weaker one with his ult and starts to fall off unless ahead). That said: there's a riot post about Tahm that's going on.

AHeroNamedHawkeNov 20, 20156 votes

If anything they should be hitting his other abilities, since he's kind of designed around his W. His other numbers are too high (260 base damage + ult passive and a 70% slow that doesn't decay on a 3.6 second CD anyone?) and are the reason he can do everything

My Waifu VanillaNov 21, 20151 votes

Or make his E not a one point wonder on the double health? Although if they do nerf the E I want them to atleast address the fact you can't use it AT ALL while rooted which makes 0 sense since it is not a mobility ability. Every other champion with a shield can use theirs while rooted so why can't Tahm? And before anyone says "counterplay" or something, Roots are already an uncommon form of cc and just makes for very unlucky lane match ups (such as VS Ryze) which is not counterplay at all since it is only a roll of the dice if you have to play against someone with a root.

ToolooTNov 20, 20155 votes

if he eats singed or teemo he instantly dies of food poisoning.
that would work

Troll for TrumpNov 20, 20154 votes

He's fine, stop crying. Bltz and Thresh are way more dangerous. Thresh especially.

RattleKnightNov 20, 20153 votes

i can solo any1 , top, jungle, mid , adc, i can kill them all with just tahm. All you need to do is stacking for Q stun , eat, repeat.

Troll for TrumpNov 21, 20151 votes

I can solo anyone, jungle, top, mid, adc, as a adc champ.Vayne and Graves for example. Vayne all you need is to press R, get the steroid, condemn and rip. Graves Dash in and faceroll.

feral rrooaarrrrNov 20, 20153 votes

What I would like to see is just his tounge width lowered. It's almost impossible to miss as is, and if you land one it's unlikely they have any hope of escape. This doesn't hurt his potential at all, while adding in some skill/counterplay to his kit.

TeslabladeNov 20, 20152 votes

I like b. Otherwise, if his attack speed and Grey health are nerfed, he'll be a lot healthier.

Lithium RosaNov 20, 20152 votes

I've been complaining about this for like a whole month. It's not only his w, he has harassment,a thick skin that counters harrassment, a slow/stun(besides w), high damage scaled with health, DOUBLE HEALTH, and a teleport. THIS IS RIDICULOUS

Celeste BenalNov 20, 20151 votes

He does not get double health. At best he gets 44% health back if he doesn't activate his shield. If he does activate his shield, it decays over 6 seconds. Literally leave him alone and he is pretty much done.

Why are you trying to kill the support anyway? Kill the carries.

My Waifu VanillaNov 21, 20151 votes

Except Tahm is a carry in any other role besides support. He will out damage most champions if he is in the jungle and does quite a bit of damage as a top laner. And don't speak like if you straight up ignore him as a support he will be useless since if you focus their ADC he will just eat them or he will go aggressive and eat yours giving his team a free kill.

Lithium RosaNov 21, 20151 votes

I'm talking about that shield, it equals to double hp in combat

UltraboomerNov 20, 20152 votes

A) is pretty much one of his main reasons for existing, B) I can agree to but only on knock ups. as far as C goes, are you saying that any time any champion uses flash they should leave whatever they had for lunch on the ground where they were? because only 1 person in the entire universe leaving behind the contents of their stomach when they flash is kinda ridiculous. and if you want to use the argument that he shouldn't be able to flash at all, I don't see why. All he's done is have a large meal. but when veigar eats 5 biscuits the size of his head at once he can still use flash. While I'm here I want to actually suggest a new feature for tahm. if he chugs a potion while an ally is in his stomach the potion should apply to the ally not to tahm.

KasyrganNov 20, 20151 votes

If you read the article about TahmKench 's inception and what inspired him, you'll find that his entire character is based around his W. Everything from his appearance and lore to his kit revolves around it. Dramatically nerfing his key ability will make him practically unviable. If you want counter play then you need to bait out his W or buy item 3123 to negate his healing. Or your supp can have a silence ( Blitzcrank and Soraka ) or a stun ( Sona , Leona , Thresh ). AOE dmg ( Amumu 's despair, Fiddlesticks 's ult, item 3068 ) also makes using his W on you backfire

YumaS2AstralNov 20, 20154 votes

{quoted}

If you read the article about 's inception and what inspired him, you'll find that his entire character is based around his W. Everything from his appearance and lore to his kit revolves around it. Dramatically nerfing his key ability will make him practically unviable. If you want counter play then you need to bait out his W or buy to negate his healing. Or your supp can have a silence ( and ) or a stun (, , ). AOE dmg ('s despair, 's ult, ) also makes using his W on you backfire

Refusing to nerf an ability just because it is the "core" ability of a champion can be dangerous.

Look at Kassadin . Riot refused to nerf his ult for a long time because they said it was his core ability, and everything from his appearance and lore revolved around it.

Then they nerfed the rest of his kit so much, just to allow his ult to continue to be strong. Until they realized that there was no other possible solution, and Kassadin would always be strong no matter how much they nerfed the rest of his kit, due to his ult. Then they decided to finally nerf it. But when they did that, the rest of his kit has already been butchered. And what was left was a Kassadin that was only a shadow of the shadow of his former self.

As much as Tahm Kench is strong, I would wish Riot didn't do the same thing to him that they did to Kassadin.