You know that the sad thing is about Ziggs bot?

Jefftiffy··42 votes·5,301 views

It is literally the only way to deal with Caitlyn. She's been left in a broken state since her rework. They haven't fixed her.

She's an early game bully with ridiculous late game and has really good siege because of her having the best range of any ADC similarly why she has the best early game other than maybe Draven. Literally fix Cait and Ziggs counters have more freedom in bot and he disappears from the bot lane meta.

I mean mages have had their early games ramped up for a long time. The mage item rework ramped their early game, but nerfed their late game. So people are finally figuring out that cheesing early game with a mage is a viable strategy because it shuts out the enemy ADC and quite often mages actually bring more to a teamfight than an ADC (they are actually longer range and better at killing squishies faster).

Seriously Ziggs is weak to Lucian Kalista Sivir Graves Ezreal Twitch Vayne (a sneaky twitch) Jhin. Basically everyone being shut out by Caitlyn other than Jhin and Jhin needs crit to fully counter him (the movespeed boost is huge).

Draven could potentially shove Ziggs out of bot lane, but his kit is in an awkward spot with lethality replacing armor pen. He needs some slight buffs to make up for how bad it hurt his build.

55 Comments

Professor Ward33 votes

The fact that supports werent listed as possible counters to ziggs shows something. Theres 4 champions botlane guys not 2

AgeOfTheMage1 votes

^ Bard huh? ziggs ulted my adc? well why didn't it do any damage?

CrazedPorcupine23 votes

This sort of Meta Evolution is what happens when you don't patch every 2 weeks. This is the reason why Tournaments in Dota 2 generally include around 80-95% of all heroes. Because they all have a niche and counter. It makes pick/ban so much more crucial for who to ban/pick to reinforce or counter a comp/pick

Guy Fox Teemo9 votes

That game is also insanely frustrating to play as everyone has stupid broken abilities.

Giga Kahuna5 votes

that isn't really relevant to his point

you can pick almost all of those characters with stupid broken abilities rather than only a small percent of those characters with stupid abilities

Ahristocats4 votes

Mind telling me which hero exactly has a broken ability? 99.9% of the characters have inbuilt counterplay and counterplay goes further than "dodge this skillshot", point and click abilities can be disjoincted, and linken sphere/BKB exist

In every single patches anti-fun heroes get reworked ie last patch: techies, necrophos

so stop talking about something that you don't know

Ionian Vulpix1 votes

Technically Cho's W, Lux's and Mogana's snares, and Yasuo's third Q tornado are all broken in the sense their hitboxes don't match the animations.

CasterGilgamesh2 votes

the thing is riot doesnt want what dota 2 has and thats the existence of true counters.See in dota2 picking one champion just shuts down another which riot doesnt want. not saying i wouldnt want it just thats just how it is.

Noblewind19 votes

Why does Ziggs have to disappear from the meta though? He just started there and it atleast has potential to lead into additional picks/builds/strats. I didn't play much over the holiday break and my first impression was my teammate was trolling but I honesty hope it stays and expands.

What I mean is, who cares how it happened? It's not that sad at all. I hate Cait too but this gives Cait a good counter, opens the field for recently unused marksman, AND more creative picks. Like any meta it starts with something that is OP and what counters it like Cait -> Ziggs bot, leads to more new picks for what the rest of the team needs to pick/build around it as a comp, leads to counters for that comp for enemy team, etc, etc. It's good!

Jefftiffy1 votes

{quoted}

Why does Ziggs have to disappear from the meta though? He just started there and it atleast has potential to lead into additional picks/builds/strats. I didn't play much over the holiday break and my first impression was my teammate was trolling but I honesty hope it stays and expands.

What I mean is, who cares how it happened? It's not that sad at all. I hate Cait too but this gives Cait a good counter, opens the field for recently unused marksman, AND more creative picks. Like any meta it starts with something that is OP and what counters it like Cait -> Ziggs bot, leads to more new picks for what the rest of the team needs to pick/build around it as a comp, leads to counters for that comp for enemy team, etc, etc. It's good!

It hasn't changed anything. Now you have the 2 perma picks in bot lane. Ziggs and Cait. A good cait can outplay a Ziggs with the right support. A good Ziggs can outplay a good cait because he does have the range and the damage as well as self peel for sticky supports.

So basically bot lane is you pick one or the other. Ziggs outclasses most ADCs and can usually force them behind pretty hard (but loses late game). Basically Caitlyn is warping the meta in bot lane. That's not how you balance a lane. It's similar to the Gnar problem with him shaping the top lane meta. You champ has to be able to better or outplay the best champ or its not worth the time or effort to play the game.

If you still don't understand. If you pick someone to counter Ziggs. They pick Cait. You lose. If you pick to counter Cait you lose to quite a few match ups and to Ziggs because those champs tend to be situational. So you pick one of the and at least leave it up to skill and the better support.

Noblewind3 votes

Fair enough, but it's still new. Like very new, and there should be some room for the game to evolve itself. Like maybe now Cait just needs minor nerfs and this could put the lane in a pretty uncertain state (player uncertainty being a good thing for variety/balance).

Awoof3 votes

When I look at the pickrate of "adc" Ziggs on op.gg, you might be slightly exaggerating, mate. (Caitlyn has the highest but Ziggs has the 17th highest with less than 1 percent)

SlyTactician 6 votes

Agreed, I'd personally love to see more champs enter the bot lane as the champion pool for bot is extremely small to start with and that doesn't include the marksmen which are unviable as a result of the meta shifts or whatnot.

While champion diversity has been an issue for a long time now, bot lane's diversity is one of the worst tbh and to have more mages coming down there could certainly spice things up.

Oleandervine2 votes

[{quoted}](name=SlyTactician ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ro5ctMkT,comment-id=00020001,timestamp=2017-01-03T22:30:07.131+0000)

Agreed, I'd personally love to see more champs enter the bot lane as the champion pool for bot is extremely small to start with and that doesn't include the marksmen which are unviable as a result of the meta shifts or whatnot.

While champion diversity has been an issue for a long time now, bot lane's diversity is one of the worst tbh and to have more mages coming down there could certainly spice things up.

Mages have been sliding down there - Brand, Annie, and sometimes Veigar. People call them troll picks, but so long as they build a sightstone and a gold income item, it can work beautifully.

Verdade2 votes

Your post was candidate for upvote, but then you listed slavestone as mandatory... sigh another dowvnvote

CasterGilgamesh2 votes

{quoted}

slavestone

so thats the true name to item 2049 you made my day lmao

PeachsProperty2 votes

yeah. RIOT should embrace the diversity. I mean they wanted jungle being able to be done by carries and mages but if a mage goes bot lane its bad?

embrace change. dont kill it.

drakuIa4212 votes

{quoted}

Why does Ziggs have to disappear from the meta though?

because i dont like losing my bot turret at 5 minutes into the game.

Cowseed14 votes

Wow. You used the Ziggs hype as Clickbait to bring people to your Caitlyn circle-jerk. The boards are evolving.

RexSaur7 votes

Adcs are so bad right now they are being replaced by mages, solution?

NERF the only good adcs!

Damn this silver forum couldnt be more smart!

notice me Sin pi1 votes

boards is open to any elo, not just the top 1% of the ranked ladder, so what silver scrubs like myself think are great solutions usually get upvotes and what diamond+ players think get usually get downvotes

Ahristocats3 votes

{quoted}

NERF the only broken adcs

fixed for you friend, you're welcome son

if you think caitlyn isn't gamebreaking right now that means 2 things: -cait main -you're playing in gold/plat mmr

Odinakos2 votes

Cait is gamebreaking compared to other adcs. Cait is just a bit strong compared to the overall strength of all champions, but significant less than other champions. If there is one adc that has some presence before 4 items, it doesnt mean we should nerf them but instead look at the role as general.

And if you dismiss my opinion as a "gold pleb", it wasnt far ago that Rekless assumed the same opinion.

Azure Hamster5 votes

So why is Cait's winrate only 52% if she's so broken?

Caitlyn

Jefftiffy2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Azure Hamster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ro5ctMkT,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-03T19:20:31.992+0000)

So why is Cait's winrate only 52% if she's so broken?

Caitlyn

Because of Ziggs. Ziggs counters her. Plus we had the issue of Vayne having stupid high damage on Q for the longest time. She is still the number 1 ADC other than maybe Jhin who has needed his wave clear addressed (mostly just lowering damage on Q on minions).

khorney1 votes

u want quick waveclear.... on hit tf will clear faster then any person in the game period... why you may ask well getting rageblade and his e double striking is op

Glory ln Death1 votes

Sion. E + Q = cleared wave. With no damage items. With some bonus AD, Q alone clears a wave. For 45 mana on a 4 second cooldown.

Odinakos1 votes

I raise you a sub 30s R cd Lux. It's long cd, but you can instaclear waves screens away! Technical the best of bestest waveclear.

I know its kinda (well a lot) irrelevant but wanted to raise the ante!

Azure Hamster1 votes

{quoted}

Because of Ziggs. Ziggs counters her. Plus we had the issue of Vayne having stupid high damage on Q for the longest time. She is still the number 1 ADC other than maybe Jhin who has needed his wave clear addressed (mostly just lowering damage on Q on minions).

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend&roleSort=ADC

Twitch is currently the ADC with the highest win rate. Vayne's #8. And I've yet to play Cait vs Ziggs.

Caitlyn

Jefftiffy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Azure Hamster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ro5ctMkT,comment-id=000000000001,timestamp=2017-01-03T20:49:04.788+0000)

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend&roleSort=ADC

Twitch is currently the ADC with the highest win rate. Vayne's #8. And I've yet to play Cait vs Ziggs.

Caitlyn

In organized play Twitch tends to be one of the worst ADCs. He just gets focused and blows up almost as bad as Kog'maw.

DatTwo21 votes

Because winrates are GENERALLY dismissable for the most part, unless they are VERY noticeably low/high in proportion to their skill cap, such as Azir's ~40% win ratio. Azir's win ratio is skewed downwards since he's difficult, but it generally does not go lower than 45% or so. Lee Sin, for example, even in the past when he's been a top jungler, has had win ratios of around 45-47%.

Kharn Skyshatter1 votes

May want to check Azir's win rate again. He is at 43.2% atm. And may drop even farther when they change Thunderlord's Decree.

Odinakos1 votes

Azir has the problem of insane skill celling and somewhat toxic kit. A few buffs may make him OP for pro matches while maintaining 45% win rate in above diamond. Like happened before. He is a special case, kinda similar to old Poppy.

You cant dismiss pro play in order to balance solo queue (even lower divisions). The reverse also applies. Like Kata pre update. She was weak for Dia+ and a joke for competitive. But she was kept weak for the shake of healthy lower divisions.

The Trent1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Azure Hamster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ro5ctMkT,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-03T19:20:31.992+0000)

So why is Cait's winrate only 52% if she's so broken?

Caitlyn

I think it's because she has such a high play rate. Bad Caitlyns lock in Caitlyn just because shes op, which leads to a win if the other adc isn't at least mediocre. Cait has highest play rate out of any adc I think. Not too sure, I just know it's high.

Azure Hamster2 votes

{quoted}

I think it's because she has such a high play rate. Bad Caitlyns lock in Caitlyn just because shes op, which leads to a win if the other adc isn't at least mediocre. Cait has highest play rate out of any adc I think. Not too sure, I just know it's high.

But Champion.gg only reports stats from platinum and up. So you're talking about "bad Caitlyns" who are platinum and up.

Caitlyn

Azure Hamster1 votes

{quoted}

I think it's because she has such a high play rate. Bad Caitlyns lock in Caitlyn just because shes op, which leads to a win if the other adc isn't at least mediocre. Cait has highest play rate out of any adc I think. Not too sure, I just know it's high.

As I said to the other guy, Champion.gg only coallates data from platinum ranked games and up. But you're right that (at least in plat and up) she's the highest play-rate ADC.

Caitlyn

Pierce The Veal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Azure Hamster,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Ro5ctMkT,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-01-03T19:20:31.992+0000)

So why is Cait's winrate only 52% if she's so broken?

Caitlyn

52.5% winrate with a THIRTY FUCKING PERCENT PLAYRATE.

Second highest winrate of all ADCs, with the highest play rate of all ADCs. A significant percentage of her playerbase has under 50 games with her (75% of her playerbase more or less).

Do people even learn fucking statistics nowaday Jesus fucking Christ.

Azure Hamster1 votes

{quoted}

52.5% winrate with a THIRTY FUCKING PERCENT PLAYRATE.

Second highest winrate of all ADCs, with the highest play rate of all ADCs. A significant percentage of her playerbase has under 50 games with her (75% of her playerbase more or less).

Do people even learn fucking statistics nowaday Jesus fucking Christ.

Yup, you need to learn statistics.

Caitlyn

SteelMankind5 votes

Would like to mention that Caitlyn loses right-click duels with every ADC in the game except Ezreal, at nearly every point in the game

Remlap12231 votes

She loses to Ezreal too. His passive is an attack speed buff. Some Ezreals build BORK as well.

Titanium704 votes

So essentially you say - Ziggs is a better Cait. And Champions that get rekt by Cait are good against Ziggs.

[slayer-pantheon-rainbows]

LEEROY KLEDKINS2 votes

One time last season i went support ziggs (full damage)

Because the enemy team had Sona, Caitlyn on bot lane and enemy jungler had the reworked kog'maw.

And it worked and I destroyed them.

I disagree with ziggs being weak to the other adcs it depends on the player, coordination (skype or discord helps).

A soloQ adc will struggle with a good ziggs player.

khorney2 votes

rework..... they didnt change anything on her besides her e can proc her passive..... not sure how that is broken. varus on the other hand became weaker after the adc rework.,........ loses damage on ult just to maybe applying 3 stacks of w.... which may seem good but youll already have 3 stacks of w becuase ull be aa them . then varus became weaker after they nerfed fervor and armor pent.....

Jefftiffy3 votes

{quoted}

rework..... they didnt change anything on her besides her e can proc her passive..... not sure how that is broken. varus on the other hand became weaker after the adc rework.,........ loses damage on ult just to maybe applying 3 stacks of w.... which may seem good but youll already have 3 stacks of w becuase ull be aa them . then varus became weaker after they nerfed fervor and armor pent.....

No it changed a lot. It added DPS to her late game. It let her burst out traps. It increased her range therefore increasing her zoning anymore. She also gets more damage overall that she actually scales with. Her 2 old abilities that scaled with AP now scale with her AAs and free crit off it.

You act like it was minor, but it was pretty much straight up buffs.

Ahri a Stark1 votes

"didnt change anything"

--> passive gives her now double ranged (650 NORMAL RANGE) --> w and e can trigger this op passive --> she got 5 FCKING TRAPS ...

chipndip11 votes

Trigger off W gives even more bonus damage.

DunkinNoobs2 votes

You guys overrate Caitlyn's late game to an absurd degree. It is, at best, slightly above average for an adc. She has nothing on actual late game adcs like Vayne and Twitch.

PeachsProperty1 votes

Doesnt Trist out range Cait after lvl 16?

Trenitaliyah1 votes

I don't get this game. Seriously guys when you see someone picking Ziggs go with another AP + Tank botlane and that's it.

Also, if we all chose AP botlane maybe Riot would fix the adc stuff soon finally.

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