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In regards to the recent bot lane development

Jbels··11 votes·2,163 views

So for anyone who hasn't already seen it or heard about it, change has started to come to bot lane. We are seeing mages replace Marksmen as the primary source of damage in bot lane, specifically Ziggs. Shiftur reportedly went 5-0 against Doublelift with it, which is absolutely staggering considering doublelift is one of the best ADCs in North America.

Doublelift was so profoundly shocked at how strong it was that he tried Ziggs in bot lane for himself, and enjoyed it. This may open the floodgates for Ziggs to become a meta bot laner, but that's not all. If Ziggs can work in the bot lane, then why not Xerath? Why not Vel'koz? Why not Viktor? Mages don't have to wait for their 4th to 5th item to start doing noticeable damage, and the way things have been for Marksmen as of right now, I've seen a bunch of threads complaining about how weak they feel. I took these with a grain of salt though, as there are a lot of complaint threads that are just whining and not intelligent discussion.

Here's the deal. A long time ago, back in season 1, Europe smacked NA at worlds. They did this with the innovative new strategy at the time of sending a Marksman down bot with a support to keep them safe while they farm. NA had not been using this strategy at the time very frequently, and when the world saw how effective it was, ADC and Support/tank bot lane pretty much became the standard. This was a huge thing, as I believe it played the biggest role in leading Riot down the path they took towards how they design marksmen.

This presents a problem, because if mages replace Marksmen, where do they go? Sure, some of them like Quinn, Ezreal and Corki can just go to top or mid respectively, but what about Kalista? What about Twitch? You can't just plop Kalista and twitch into mid or top, that's practically painting a target on the back of their heads and giving them a sign to hold that says "CAMP HERE". This is a problem for marksmen, because if mages replace them right now, the bulk of the marksmen class will become pretty much obsolete. Make no mistake, this isn't a lane trade between marksmen and mages, this could turn into a full on invasion of mages into the only consistent niche that most marksmen can fill. We might see a double mage meta where both mid and bot are running mages. Hell, Assassins might go down there to counter the mages. Bot lane Katarina, anybody?

I'm not saying any of this is certain to happen, but small change will usually beget large change, given enough time, and the idea of an entire class of champion in league getting made obsolete by a meta shift actually being a possibility is terrifying

tl;dr, Mages could replace MArksmen entirely, and a lot of them could have nowhere to go, and that is scary

37 Comments

Kilanost4 votes

God forbid marksmen have to build a item 3155 or item 3111 oritem 3139 or item 3814.

All this is going to do is force more adaptive build paths for a role that routinely builds the same exact way over and over again.

Whats that? You wont be able to kill entire teams by yourself late game with ridiculous kiting via all that move speed you rack up from zeal items or lifesteal tanking with warlords bloodlust and a BT? Gosh darn it, that sounds awful. I guess you're just going to have to suck it up and build a LITTLE bit of defense like every other role ends up doing when they need to.

The real travesty is the overwhelming belief that ADCs should only ever be built as glass cannons and the complacency that has been created due to the only real variation in bot lane being which supports are there.

Change your runes, buy a damn maw, and work around it like every other lane with a shitty match up.

Orangesilk1 votes

If an ADC does not build full damage, it takes FAR too long for them to kill a ridiculous juggernaut like Darius Garen DrMundo Illaoi. Who are also btw dealing quite the damage if left un-killed.

Kilanost3 votes

Which will make things even as the other team wont have a way to deal with your tanks as quickly either. Its self-balancing.

Orangesilk1 votes

Juggernauts being OP is not balance.

Rivuo1 votes

{quoted}

God forbid marksmen have to build a item 3155 or item 3111 oritem 3139 or item 3814.

All this is going to do is force more adaptive build paths for a role that routinely builds the same exact way over and over again.

Whats that? You wont be able to kill entire teams by yourself late game with ridiculous kiting via all that move speed you rack up from zeal items or lifesteal tanking with warlords bloodlust and a BT? Gosh darn it, that sounds awful. I guess you're just going to have to suck it up and build a LITTLE bit of defense like every other role ends up doing when they need to.

The real travesty is the overwhelming belief that ADCs should only ever be built as glass cannons and the complacency that has been created due to the only real variation in bot lane being which supports are there.

Change your runes, buy a damn maw, and work around it like every other lane with a shitty match up.

Merc is 3.7k. By the time you buy it, enemy ap champion has void staff.

Maw is a good buy but if enemy team has thornmail then you need lifesteal and lord dom, both stats that arent on a maw.

If you buy lord dom to bust the tanks, you need time to buy a defensive item, if you buy a defensive item first, you wont do anything to tanks

You are pretty fuckin biased.

Kilanost2 votes

I sure as shit am biased. But that doesn't mean what i'm saying isn't to some degree correct.

Your arguments center around this idea that marksmen need to attack 50 times per second dealing 1k damage per hit to be effective. Simply put you dont want to build differently. And in regard to your comment aout merc being too expensive, don't build that first. Build a hexdrinker. Blows my mind I even have to say that.

Many tanks also build their damage item early. While you build your lord doms, they're building their BC or Liandrys or Triforce.

Oh and lets not forget, you can still just build a mallet and kite the fuck out of all of them.

Try new builds instead of the same ones that have been used since S1 and get back to me. Oh and make sure there's some defense stats in there.

Meta Phyton1 votes

For every 1 intelligent person who picks based on circumstance, there are about 100 who blindly run down the recommended item list.

Hell, I've played an AD Teemo against a Darrius who kept buying MR, I guess just because of the thought "against Teemo buy MR".

And the zombie age continues.

x Old Man x1 votes

{quoted}

I sure as shit am biased. But that doesn't mean what i'm saying isn't to some degree correct.

Your arguments center around this idea that marksmen need to attack 50 times per second dealing 1k damage per hit to be effective. Simply put you dont want to build differently. And in regard to your comment aout merc being too expensive, don't build that first. Build a hexdrinker. Blows my mind I even have to say that.

Many tanks also build their damage item early. While you build your lord doms, they're building their BC or Liandrys or Triforce.

Oh and lets not forget, you can still just build a mallet and kite the fuck out of all of them.

Try new builds instead of the same ones that have been used since S1 and get back to me. Oh and make sure there's some defense stats in there.

Here's the issue with EVERYTHING you are saying.

Basically what you want to happen is everyone turn in to tanks and we will have 15 min team fights where no one can kill each other.

The ENTIRE point of classes is to have play style diversity. Tanks are SUPPOSED to be a low damage output, high damage soak class. "Carries" are supposed to be a high damage output, low damage soak class. Tanks are SUPPOSED to be low risk, low reward while attack damage carries are SUPPOSED to be high risk high reward. If the system is implemented properly an attack damage carry should be able to outplay a tank that is at the same point in the game (not fed one way or the other). At this point in the game attack damage carries CANNOT do this unless they are far superior in skill.

Also we have created an environment where assassins have a much lower risk than they once had. I have had an extremely high percentage of my losses come with me winning lane and then losing to an assassin that can kill me in less than 2 seconds and then hop out to safety with next to no repercussions.

What riot has effectively done is give tanks the ability to do damage AND soak damage while making assassins do 2 to 3 times the damage that adc's can do with far less risk, which makes attack damage carries obsolete. If nothing is done in the coming months you will see a HUGE decline in adc's which is not healthy for the game.

Kilanost1 votes

I'm not suggesting that everyone go so far as to be a tank. What i'm saying is that if you have a problem with a ziggs in the botlane and want to survive, build a hexdrinker first. I literally still haven't seen an adc do that yet even with all these brands and zyras in the bot lane. In the long run, you will only do slightly less damage but you will take significantly less damage from ziggs poke. Throw in a rune page with flat MR runes and you should be golden.

The tank issue you're bringing up is not one i agree with at all and is not the way the roles were meant to be played in general. ADCs should never be in a position where they have to 1v1. If you are in that position, you're either out of position or your team just all died and you're running for dear life.

As far as your issue with assassins, you have to consider what the enemy team comp gave up for it and how to exploit it. Mid lane mages are generally the majority of most teams' waveclear capabilities as well as a significant amount of their poke. If you 5 man siege that team, you as the adc will stay safer and you will eventually take that turret. Additionally, with enough of an advantage, you could even have a top laner split push while you 4 man siege a turret. This is doable because you will have the waveclear they lack if you have a mid lane mage and they have an assassin. Throw a zzrot into this equation now. All the sudden the enemy team is really in a shit spot because every wave, lets by a few zzrot minions.

You're thinking too much about the adcs only instead of the overall game. In that sense, the pros and cons of all these things tend to balance.

And i know what you're thinking :What if their bot lane is a ziggs who can waveclear and they get an assassin mid? Now they have waveclear and an assassin! What am I to do?

The answer is that you're supposed to do your best while your tank punishes this team for not having a sustained source of physical damage which allowed them to stack MR and health. These are the games where the tank gets to build an extra damage item practically for free.

In short, you have to be a team player. Some games you're the carry, some games you get carried. That's the way it goes.

x Old Man x1 votes

{quoted}

I'm not suggesting that everyone go so far as to be a tank. What i'm saying is that if you have a problem with a ziggs in the botlane and want to survive, build a hexdrinker first. I literally still haven't seen an adc do that yet even with all these brands and zyras in the bot lane. In the long run, you will only do slightly less damage but you will take significantly less damage from ziggs poke. Throw in a rune page with flat MR runes and you should be golden.

The tank issue you're bringing up is not one i agree with at all and is not the way the roles were meant to be played in general. ADCs should never be in a position where they have to 1v1. If you are in that position, you're either out of position or your team just all died and you're running for dear life.

As far as your issue with assassins, you have to consider what the enemy team comp gave up for it and how to exploit it. Mid lane mages are generally the majority of most teams' waveclear capabilities as well as a significant amount of their poke. If you 5 man siege that team, you as the adc will stay safer and you will eventually take that turret. Additionally, with enough of an advantage, you could even have a top laner split push while you 4 man siege a turret. This is doable because you will have the waveclear they lack if you have a mid lane mage and they have an assassin. Throw a zzrot into this equation now. All the sudden the enemy team is really in a shit spot because every wave, lets by a few zzrot minions.

You're thinking too much about the adcs only instead of the overall game. In that sense, the pros and cons of all these things tend to balance.

And i know what you're thinking :What if their bot lane is a ziggs who can waveclear and they get an assassin mid? Now they have waveclear and an assassin! What am I to do?

The answer is that you're supposed to do your best while your tank punishes this team for not having a sustained source of physical damage which allowed them to stack MR and health. These are the games where the tank gets to build an extra damage item practically for free.

In short, you have to be a team player. Some games you're the carry, some games you get carried. That's the way it goes.

It's obvious you aren't an adc. Play 100+ games at adc and try your builds and see what happens. Hexdrinker CAN NOT be built until 3rd item or you just get destroyed by your opposing adc or the ad assassin jungle.

Why should you NEVER be able to 1v1 another class? That doesn't sound like a good game design to me at all. Skill should be rewarded... you obviously play classes that 1v1 regularly so you wouldn't like losing that ability.

I am actually an above average adc for my rank (multiple testimonies to this fact) and about 40-50% of team fights I die to a flanking assassin or a bruiser that can engage me through my team.

You being a top/jungle main means you are busy upfront harassing the other teams carries to realize what is happening in back and then you flame your carries for dying to the assassins.

In this current meta there are a large amount of games in which there is both an AD and AP assassin. How am I supposed to build to counter two different damage types that can kill me with 0 time to react?

Kilanost1 votes

The whining thats going on is about this APC ziggs bot type stuff. If you build a hexdrinker, you will survive lane better. Period.

If there are assassins, you play passive and let your team carry you and you do what you can like every other person who plays a different role does when they are against a tough team comp.

This is ADC privilege at its finest. 6 straight seasons of being the dominant force in games is enough. No single role has consistently made or broken games as much as ADC has. The focus on ADCs as the central point of the game for anything post 30 minutes is absurd. Games are completely won and lost over who can protect their adc the best because 15 seconds of staying alive will allow them to gun down your entire team. Nope, don't care what you say kiddo, the role being weaker is good for the game as it stands.

If the other team has both an AD and AP assassin, siege because their wave clear is probably shit.

The entire problem is that ADCs what the entire game to revolve around them. They roll around the map taking every scrap of farm even if you're in the middle of taking it yourself, bitch and moan all game long about peel regardless of whether its just them being completely out of position, and general are cancerous late game.

There are 4 other roles on the map. Stop throwing your hissy fit that you have to let them carry you from time to time.

And again, build a fucking hexdrinker if you're against ziggs bot. I don't want to hear you argue about it, it'll work.

Meta Phyton1 votes

Should be interesting to see what happens. Compared to others, I'm a real newbie (been playing for a year only) but I get the feeling that a big change to the dynamic of the game could be really good, and maybe even shake people up from their stubbornness about what "has to be done or else feed".

x Old Man x1 votes

You CAN NOT argue something that is being said by EVERY single member of the adc class.

Every single pro has said that adc is dead at this point. I can link you videos from sneaky, doublelift, and qtpie (three of the best adc to ever play in north america) attesting to the fact that adc is borderline unplayable at this point. Find me a single video of a high level adc testifying that adc's are still legit and I will take your arguments into consideration.

I am not talking about some bronze scrubs that don't know how to adapt. I am talking about the leading adc's on our servers right now stating that adc is BY FAR the weakest it HAS EVER been.

Kilanost1 votes

And I'm arguing this level of weakness/strength is exactly where ADCs should have been all along. What you consider "weak" is absurd.

HentEye4 votes

Actually, the reason Ziggs works so well botlane is because of a few benefits that he as a mage can exclusively enjoy.

1.) Increadibly high base damage with low cooldowns and long range.

2.) A passive that kills structures, which plays into the fact that bot lane turret doesn't get early resistances like the others.

3.) Self peel.

4.) The option to build Zhonyas. (Though other mages can do it.

5.) Easily able to harass the enemy with aoe as they farm.

k wìx1 votes

{quoted}

Actually, the reason Ziggs works so well botlane is because of a few benefits that he as a mage can exclusively enjoy.

1.) Increadibly high base damage with low cooldowns and long range.

Xerath, Lux, and Vel'koz all enjoy this benefit.

2.) A passive that kills structures, which plays into the fact that bot lane turret doesn't get early resistances like the others.

Yea, I definitely see them nerfing this away from Ziggs.

3.) Self peel.

Xerath and Lux both have this benefit. Many, many mages have the ability to stun and slow to escape. I would argue that Ziggs has some of the BEST self-peel in the game, and I hope they take some of it away from him.

4.) The option to build Zhonyas. (Though other mages can do it.

Eh? Everyone can do this.

5.) Easily able to harass the enemy with aoe as they farm.

Xerath, Lux, and Vel'koz all enjoy this benefit.

Orangesilk2 votes

You know, most marksmen auto-win lane at toplane. Yeah, they are weak to ganks, but so are many 'meta' toplaners anyways. And given how important first-blood tower is, most of the jungler attention will be directed to the botlane. 'Weak when in a 2v1' is not a real indicator of strength, and if the meta shifts this way and we see more marksmen just farming up their lategames on toplane island, we will finally start noticing just how broken marskmen are as a class.

Rivuo1 votes

{quoted}

You know, most marksmen auto-win lane at toplane. Yeah, they are weak to ganks, but so are many 'meta' toplaners anyways. And given how important first-blood tower is, most of the jungler attention will be directed to the botlane. 'Weak when in a 2v1' is not a real indicator of strength, and if the meta shifts this way and we see more marksmen just farming up their lategames on toplane island, we will finally start noticing just how broken marskmen are as a class.

There is not a single meta top laner that is weak to ganks.

Jbels1 votes

{quoted}

There is not a single meta top laner that is weak to ganks.

Was going to point that out, yeah they really aren't. Jungler logic with a marksman like Kalista in top lane would be somewhere along the lines of "Why gank botlane and risk a 3v2 when I can gank the weak adc in top or mid and get a summoner for sure, revisit in 2 minutes and get a kill?"

Icestar11861 votes

Kalista top is actually pretty good if you can play her well. She's mobile, she completely hoses an entire class (juggernauts) with her kiting ability, and her ult is phenomenal for helping your jungler gank. She also basically gets free wards. I'm not going to call her broken or anything, but if you play smart it should be totally doable.

Jbels1 votes

{quoted}

Kalista top is actually pretty good if you can play her well. She's mobile, she completely hoses an entire class (juggernauts) with her kiting ability, and her ult is phenomenal for helping your jungler gank. She also basically gets free wards. I'm not going to call her broken or anything, but if you play smart it should be totally doable.

I don't see it, Nasus completely destroys Kalista's ability to do anything, Darius will just flash pull you at level 6 and if you get hit by it, you'll be slowed enough for him to walk up and W. Illaoi has you dead as soon as she gets your soul, it's a pretty shakey argument for saying she hoses every juggernaut

khorney1 votes

so what if kal goes mid... who cares black spear the jungler simple as that.

Jbels1 votes

{quoted}

so what if kal goes mid... who cares black spear the jungler simple as that.

That's one issue of many solved

khorney1 votes

thats my point i was doing ziggs bot last season in 6 and 5 was called a troll grant it i was building ap supp but it still was doing the same thing..... having black spear on the jungle is better then the supp becuase its like a free thresh lantern ...or if u can do kal supp lol talk about ultimate peels lol

Vanic9981 votes

I did marksman Vel'Koz before marksman Mage became a thing. Back in season 5.

Jbels1 votes

{quoted}

I did marksman Vel'Koz before marksman Mage became a thing. Back in season 5.

Shine on, you daring pioneer

Marshbouy1 votes

ideally they would be balanced so that mages are picked about the same amount of the time as Marksman, but the power imbalance between the two would be hard to deal with. E.G. most mages are strong early and start to fall off late, while most marksman are the opposite.

Jbels1 votes

{quoted}

ideally they would be balanced so that mages are picked about the same amount of the time as Marksman, but the power imbalance between the two would be hard to deal with. E.G. most mages are strong early and start to fall off late, while most marksman are the opposite.

If the meta really does change that drastically, then I thing they'll have to divert alot of the mid season changes to it

Vivus Thanatos1 votes

The reason the majority of mages won't replace marksmen is because the primary use of ADCs is to destroy objectives, meaning the quicker they can do that, the better they are, or at least hypothetically. Ziggs works very well because he can 2 shot towers near the end of the game meaning you cant leave him alone with a tower for more than 3 seconds.

Xerath, for example, has no way to consistently damage objectives in a significant way and I therefore seriously doubt that he, or most mages, will be able to replace marksmen. I think the few that can fulfill the role like Ziggs only increase the diversity of the role which it is definitely lacking in. (Ziggs may need a few nerfs though)

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

Marksman will definitely have a place, still, because most mages do not have the consistent, reliable DPS that wins teamfights. It's burst reliant, and if the enemy team has priority, they will win.

TS Media1 votes

Azir AurelionSol Cassiopeia Viktor Teemo Swain Rumble Ryze

did somebody say consistent dps? Teemo is always obligatory to be in every role.

On that note, out of all the ones I listed, Ryze has the least reliable DPS. Viktor may be a burst reliant mage, but I find his damage to be fairly consistent and a lot of times wins fights if you leave him be since he decimates your entire team.

Blue Collar Bear1 votes

most mages do not have consistent, reliable DPS

It's very possible these mages could replace Ziggs, albeit ASol might be difficult to play in the bottom lane. Rumble being melee feels a little weird, too, since he doesn't take towers well.

TS Media1 votes

Sorry, I always tunnel lock on [insert 'X' noun in front of adjective]. xd But yeah, I do see your point. We'll just have to wait to see how it plays out.

Rozzeta1 votes

Why not all those other mages you mention, you ask? Because they don't have a passive to take down turrets as if they were butter.

Jbels1 votes

{quoted}

Why not all those other mages you mention, you ask? Because they don't have a passive to take down turrets as if they were butter.

Except mages get to a point where they start becoming actual threats to the enemy team MUCH faster than marksmen do. Even with an entire 2 items like IE and PD or Shiv or RFC, they don't feel threatening. A Syndra with Morello and Luden's is MUCH more threatening than a Tristana with an IE + any of those 3 crit items

TenshouSNK1 votes

"If mages replace marksman, where do they go? Quinn, Ezreal can go top..." Well Quinn is already going top for a long time now so why mention that?

Jbels1 votes

{quoted}

"If mages replace marksman, where do they go? Quinn, Ezreal can go top..." Well Quinn is already going top for a long time now so why mention that?

If you read further, you'll notice I said later that a lot of marksmen would be displaced, not all of them. Reading the entire post ftw

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