Is MMR a myth?

dark100dark100··1 votes·437 views

If there would be an MMR, teams would be composed of players with similar skill level. But 8 out of 10 games is decided by a troll / leaver. The game seems clever enough to pick only one troll for each game. When there is no troll, I also see huge player skill differences (which wouldn't happen if MMR existed). It seems to me that players are randomly selected by the matchmaking system, and a troll is assigned to control the outcome. That is all. This keeps the 50% winrate for average people. Am I right?

12 Comments

Nahui2 votes

A troll and a leaver do not dictate skill level. It dictates someone deciding to have fun or simply not having time to play the game they mistakenly or purposely joined.

If Faker randomly decided to troll in a game, it does not mean he is worse than the rest of his teammates. He just chose not to play.

You're also making a generalization for the purpose of exaggerating your point. When there isn't this so called "troll" (whatever that means really), it's highly doubtful there's a huge skill difference.

The game isn't designed to match everyone at the exact same level. That's impossible. Some people also have bad games. some people have connection issues, some people may be in pain IRL, some people may just not be thinking clearly. You never know if someone is actually bad based off of a game. Maybe their mother just died 5 days ago and they are coping with league, but it's on their mind. Maybe they have a pounding headache. Maybe they're playing a relatively new champion. Or maybe their opponent was just better than them. You can never know.

MMR is a real thing.

And there is no ELO hell.

dark100dark1001 votes

In short you say MMR exists, but it is useless? It is just barely better than pure random because of the unknown factors?

So advancing in ranking depends on whose mother died in 5 days ago? Based on pure luck (you or the other team gets the poor guy)? If this is true, matchmaking really needs a serious improvement.

Btw I just had a game where the adc choose garen, and I had to leave the champ select. Now I am just waiting for the timeout. Do you think that guy isn't thinking clearly but otherwise a pro?

Nyhver1 votes

{quoted}

In short you say MMR exists, but it is useless? It is just barely better than pure random because of the unknown factors?

So advancing in ranking depends on whose mother died in 5 days ago? Based on pure luck (you or the other team gets the poor guy)? If this is true, matchmaking really needs a serious improvement.

Btw I just had a game where the adc choose garen, and I had to leave the champ select. Now I am just waiting for the timeout. Do you think that guy isn't thinking clearly but otherwise a pro?

Unless I'm mistaken, mmr is a system where more games played are more accurate for determining skill

In fewer games played, luck has a much larger factor, in a large amount of games luck has little to no influence, so to get to where you belong you most likely need to play hundreds of matches if not more.

dark100dark1001 votes

This is exactly what I am questioning. Do you have any proof that it is true or just a myth? People blindly believe in math without understanding it. There are game types where MMR likely correctly represents your skill (perhaps chess?), but is it true for an 5v5 MOBA?

Nahui1 votes

MMR is not perfect, but it is not useless. You are generally put with people your skill level. MMR is all based off of game factor such as CS, kills, deaths, gold earned, etc.

There's a reason why not everyone places the same. I won 4 games, lost 6 and got placed Silver 2. Some people win all 10 games and get Bronze. I ended G4 last season, lost 3 ranks only. Some people win more than me but tank far more. Why? Your performance is rated on this MMR. Riot has announced MMR, and even conceptually thinking it makes complete sense.

Why do you never have to fight Bjergsen or Doublelift in your games? If no MMR, you'd be playing with anyone. No, you get matched generally with people around you, give or take a few ranks. The system can't always match you with the same rank, and some people's MMR is higher than their rank.

Now keep in mind this is a 5v5. Your personal skill is not all that's involved in your performance, which is the definition of any team game ever existing. But, it's fairly accurate.

dark100dark1001 votes

I think you misunderstand the point. I didn't say people are on the same skill level, and there needs to be a system which separates people. What I am questioning is the usefulness of MMR (a single numerical value). Why can't we have a multi-factor system, where people skill represented by several numbers. They record all matches, all information is available to determine player skills. Still they stuck with MMR.

Look at this game: http://matchhistory.eune.leagueoflegends.com/en/#match-details/EUN1/1351828070/31687198?tab=overview

The enemy team had a troll (shaco). They had no adc, but two junglers, and lost. Still the troll get the most kills! These people can ruin others games, and can do this because of the super MMR based system.

MMR can be part of the numbers of course, but the ultimate aim is creating an environment where people are happy. Loosing a game is normal (one team needs to loose), but loosing games all the time because of obvious trolls is not satisfying (I can see trolls in the enemy team, and those wins are not satisfying as well). MMR is a failure to me.

Nahui1 votes

They do have a bunch of numerical figures for all aspects of your game that total up into your MMR.

You can't gear it towards "Trolls". Because what is a troll? Someone off building? Someone doing poorly? Someone making poor decisions. People too loosely use the term troll to describe a player who's play style you they do not approve. Now, I'm not saying there are no trolls. But something like AD mid Annie.

I look at that Shaco and I see nothing troll. He's an AP support Shaco. It's an off build, one that is very valid with his good AP ratios and the use of his boxes to establish bush vision, control, and picks. Smite is actually great for Shaco because of his ability to stealth flash and steal with it. Is it odd? Yes. Is someone a troll because they didn't take exhaust/ignite as support? No. A troll would be if he built a bunch of boots or built stuff like Ravenous Hydra on a ranged char.

I explained his whole build and strategy perfectly, therefore I wouldn't say he's a troll. And he also did very well. All that shows is that his "off pick" that you perceive as trolling was actually quite effective. Maybe a bit hard on the kills as a supp, but one look at that from Riot, or even most players, and they'll just congratulate Shaco on his good work lol. Supp Shaco even had his supp item.

dark100dark1001 votes

Supp :D It is funny how you try to defend him. I hope you will play together someday and enjoy his playstyle.

Anyway, Shaco was THE adc, Zilean was the supp. Zilean played 2v1 on bot and got destroyed. Shako never joined any teamfight (5v4 all the time), and just run around and sometimes scored a kill when he found a low-hp player. He got some nice items, but since he never joined any fight, it wasn't a problem.

Nahui1 votes

I'm not sure if I can believe he got that score and CS by running around and doing nothing. Looks like Zilean didn't really go support judging on his items.

Still, the fact that the troll pick did better than the rest is a little concerning and at that point, idk if he's to blame for the loss.

Mysticman891 votes

I doubt even in chess or any other game that uses elo or an elo-like system (e.g. MMR) is accurate without a ton of games played, and even people with thousands of games and a fairly established ELO rating will occasionally win games against those with higher ELO than them. Over 100 or so matches though, one would likely find that the higher rated person won more than 50% of their games.

Theres probably more variance in individual MMRs a 5v5 game, and the small differences can snowball a somewhat more here which make it sometimes take longer for people to find their 'true' mmr, but it does seem to work, as evidenced by the fact that diamond players will consistently poop on bronze players. Similarly long-term silver players will likely lose against long-time gold players, and so on with various other match ups of differing tier where the players have established themselves.

It can become more apparent that mmr is a good indicator of skill when in premades with people of completely different mmr. The matchmaking will try to find a fair match that'd ideally be people individually the same mmr as each person in your premade, but often ends up settling for a match where the average team mmr is roughly the same. This often results in the people with low MMR ending up getting destroyed, while the high mmr people will do quite well (e.g. winning lane or simply ending up with a much better kda than their lower mmr peers).

People are prone to thinking in relatively small sample sizes (as most people probably won't even play 10 games in a day, much less a statistically significant amount) and the games with feeders/AFKs stand out which makes them feel held back, but if you actually look at the statistics over a longer period in many cases those players actually do have a ~50% win rate or more, and so actually are trending upwards. (And of course in many more cases, players overestimate their own skill level, and so despite having a 50% win rate over a large number of games, they continue to blame their teammates.)

AFKs/trolls are somewhat rarer in higher MMRs (although still unfortunately a thing), but the key thing to remember is that there are 5 members on the opposing team, while only 4 members+you on your team. If you're not an AFKer/troll yourself, then that means the opposing team is more likely to have an AFKer/troll, so in the long run if it was only down to those, you'd consistently rise up in MMR, rather than trend down as many people seem to think. Thankfully there are matches where those sort don't feature at all, and so more interesting skill based competitions happen as well, and the result of those games really help sort out where you 'belong'. AFKs/trolls might make your mmr higher than it 'should' be in the long run, but in the big picture the contribution from afk/troll games compared to skill-testing games is going to be relatively small.

dark100dark1001 votes

You have a lot of valid arguments, but It is unclear to me that you think MMR is ok, or it should be improved.

It would be interesting, if you could enable longer waiting times for a better match (lower skill difference).

You also raised a valid problem. Even if there is no troll, somebody could be destroyed in a lane. It would not be a problem, if it would not affect the whole game. However, it seems to me that items > skills. If somebody get fed on a lane, he can destroy other even if they are better. That is the problem of the balance team, not the matchmaking system.

Nyhver1 votes

No

{quoted}

I also see huge player skill differences (which wouldn't happen if MMR existed)

This is assuming there aren't different types of players with different types of skills, strengths and weaknesses. Players fluctuate in playing well and badly as well as if they are playing their primary roles/champions into unfavorable/favorable matchups, though playing a primary role is less of an issue than in the past.

Example; Game 1) Gosu and support trash player X + support Game 2) Gosu and support get trashed by player X + support

They're still around the same MMR, but some people would think one potentially heavily outclasses the other, the conclusion of who was the better adc/support was opposite from game 1 to game 2

On a game like league, mmr is a loose calculation of skill

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