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LeBlanc Problems (With math)

ModAcademy Kayn··14 votes·1,736 views

I stayed under tower all of laning phase as Viktor, using E to clear lanes and still ended up feeding to Mrs. Damage-then-back-to-safety. Leblanc

Fizz was nerfed because he was toxic to play against with his mobility and damage. They're also the same since they have oppressive laning stages but are able to be shut down in teamfights, but that's not a proper way to handle laning against these champs.

LeBlanc can do what Fizz used to do but with her W, taking out 1/5 of your health with a single W and masteries (About 100 damage total), not even counting runes.

When Level 2 comes out she can do up to 210 damage with a single Q/W. (110 for double proc of Q, and W with masteries)

By that point, if you decided one potion was not worth using yet, that's around 300 damage or 3/5 of your health. That there is worth two potions worth of health. So, after using your pots and you're back up to full health, she is now level 3.

So with her full Q/W/E combo she is doing 100 from W, 110 from Q double proc and 90 with her E double proc. 300 damage total. At level three with Dorans, the average mage has around 680 health. They're left with 380 health, not counting any AA Leblanc is getting in. If she didn't decide to stick around, so you can't retaliate, not proc'ing her double E, that's 345, damage, without any AA.

You know have 18 seconds to decide. Do you wish to go back to tower at half health to waste money on pots, do you call in your friendly jungler to help, or do you stay under tower using some means of farm? This decision is given to you at half your health. Anyone else think that's oppressive?

So, what do we do with her?

We could make her more ult reliant, taking out some of her damage from her abilities into her ult? This would mean she'd have to at least wait till level 6, where either champ can be able to duel reliably.

We could increase her CD on her Q, since that is/was the problem with Kassadin, having an always up farm/poke tool. Make her decide whether it is worth used poking or farming or maxing first or last. It would also stop that annoying last minute Q with her double proc with E.

We could change her mechanics slightly, maybe making her W's aoe becoming more narrow, allowing people to sidestep her W like they do her E. Or making Q a skill shot, since a lot of her damage is very reliable.

TL;DR A majority of LeBlanc's damage early game is oppressive. She's the new Fizz in terms of dealing damage and getting out. Her damage output scaling from level 1 to 3 is 100/210/300. So, what do we do with her? Reduce early game damage and throwing it into her ult? Up her Q cd to make her choose which is important farm or poke reliability? Make her W, side-step able by making it Narrower, instead of a circle, more of an Oval? Or straight up turn Q into a skill shot.

50 Comments

Vaati00613 votes

Leblanc is like Katarina: insane mobility with insane burst damage... Except that LB also has crowd control, and she actually has MORE mobility than Kat since she can dash to an area instead of target unit. I hate leblanc with a burning passion.

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Ironically, one of her main strengths can also be one of her boons. Right now her Insta-Back with her W is 4 seconds.

That's 4 seconds to do more damage then that of her W. We shorten that down, then we have LeBlanc's either A. forgetting to back in time (yay us) or B. Spamming their spells even faster and then backing (THEY'RE LEARNING). By having a window of time for LB to do stuff we actually have a better chance of doing damage or being able to lock her down.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

That 4 second window is exactly the problem. You can Morg snare her for 3 seconds, and LB doesn't have to care because she still has 1 second to go back. She dumps her damage in 2/3 of a second already, if she's good. Why the extra 3 seconds, except as a crutch?

straight4free1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RbNYMw9Q,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-03-18T01:04:31.332+0000)

That 4 second window is exactly the problem. You can Morg snare her for 3 seconds, and LB doesn't have to care because she still has 1 second to go back. She dumps her damage in 2/3 of a second already, if she's good. Why the extra 3 seconds, except as a crutch?

This was the buff they gave her when they removed her silence. I agree with it, I think the jumping back and forth is what makes LeBlanc fun and unique. Without it she is just some burst caster.

Kitten of Evil1 votes

She is a burst caster. That's how she's played. That's how most assassins are -- deal damage as quickly as possible.

straight4free1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Kitten of Evil,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RbNYMw9Q,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-03-18T14:59:40.897+0000)

She is a burst caster. That's how she's played. That's how most assassins are -- deal damage as quickly as possible.

She is generic without the back-and-forth is what I'm saying.

OhOkYea5 votes

nerf katarina

ModAcademy Kayn8 votes

Please go to one of the countless other cry threads for Kat. This is for LeBlanc. Thank you.

ladention1 votes

uh guys? i think its a joke

ModAcademy Kayn4 votes

Personally if it was a joke, I would phrase it better. Because its not funny.

Åron4 votes

Better nerf Sejuani

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

People stahp. Plenty of other threads for this. Ones with considerably less math.

Kitten of Evil2 votes

Q needs to just not be point-and-click. That would basically solve the problem, even if nothing else were changed, because you could avoid her damage if you play well.

Kosm1K2 votes

except that if q was a skillshot, it would either have to only focus champions or it would kill her completely. I understand that there are others champs with skillshot reliant abilities to set up their combos, particularly Ahri , Lux ,Diana the list goes on, but leblanc doesn't have the extra something to do so. Ahri has waveclear in her q that makes it easy to open up an opportunity to cast her charm. Lux has insane waveclear in her E (i've cleared almost an entire minion wave with her E at only 2 ranks in it). Diana has the tankiness to be able to stay into that fight until she kills them. Leblanc has none of these, and before you say that she has her w for waveclear, it's not too great to have your only waveclear to be an ability with a 10+ sec cd and it being your only escape when you're a sitting duck without it because most of your damaging abilities rely on the proc/gap closer it gives you. I understand that people could just WQE in to deal the damage, but pre6, leblanc's entire combo won't be enough especially if you're itemizing against her/ have mr in your rune page. Also, along with skillshots, you get wonky hitboxes, like her E that is extremely unreilable due to it's humongous hitbox, it's impossible to weave between minions because more likely than not, it's going to get entangled in one. So I understand why people have so much trouble with leblanc, but a skillshot Q would just break her. Also undoubtedly Riot will just compensate buff her that will just make matters worse.

Baron of Bread2 votes

You wouldn't happen to be including MR in these equations, would you?

Either way, you do have a point. How many times can she do her combo though?

ModAcademy Kayn2 votes

Her combo is 18 second cd, since that's her W cd, that's why I said you have 18 seconds to decide what to do next.

Since MR is the only non-scaling stat, we have the usual of 30 MR or 23% resist. For level 1, that lowers it to around 77. Level 2 is around 170. Level 3 is (hehe 69 reduced damage) so that even's out around 231. But lets not forget the masteries of magic penetration, which I think that's where I draw the line in math.

Bears Dont Care1 votes

{quoted}

Her combo is 18 second cd, since that's her W cd, that's why I said you have 18 seconds to decide what to do next.

Since MR is the only non-scaling stat,

That is incorrect, depending on the champion MR does scale. Melee champions outside of 6, scale. 6 others don't scale because they are both melee/ranged. i.e. Jayce.

One must also consider that Leblanc is ST glass cannon. Take her damage away, she becomes glass without any boom.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Ah, did not realize the champion specific MR boost.

"LeBlanc is ST glass cannon" Unlesd you're SivHD item 3027 item 3027 item 3027 But seriously now, I understand the glass cannon thing, she still has the same problem as Fizz. Oppresive damage with easy escapes.

Fizz at least had to walk out, had he been too aggresive. LeBlanc has reliable damage, easy escape that out lasts all cc save for the one woman cc, Lissandra and the ability to outrun anyone with a 6 second flash. Her W has absolutely no way to miss, if ýou're in Q range and there's no way of missing Q.

Riot still has that problem where overlapping cc will have a small gap to interact with, say a flash, zhoyna's etc. This means if she is spamming return, she might get out before the next cc kicks in. Granted that is more of a game problem, it exists none the less.

Åron1 votes

It's a joke.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Realized that the moment I posted mine. I can be rather blind sometimes.

Llanite1 votes

3 Things not presented in your "math"

  1. Cooldown: QWE costs you a pot = 35g = 2 cs while she would post zero threat for the next 18s, one can simply walk forwards and zone her. If you make her lose more than 2 cs each 18s rotation, you're actually winning.

  2. Mana: The QWE costs you a HP pot, and half of her entire mana pool. Again, if you actually step forwards and stop her from cs, she can't recoup the mana via Doran's ring passive. 2 rotations and she's out.

  3. Utility: LB has no CC. One can simply toss CC into the direction she's W into, LB could not pull the E chain at all and would lose the trade. Annie Xerath Syndra Riven Ahri

  4. No farm capacity: she has no aoe, q costs lots of mana and has low dmg. If you play any sustain mid Akali Chogath Galio Orianna Swain and ward well (stop roaming), she'll be use less by mid game.

RasCaelestis2 votes

Utility: LB has no CC.

She has a slow that builds to a 1.5 second snare on her E. Admittedly, some champions do have CC that lasts longer, but LeBlanc is a hyper-mobile assassin-mage and can usually kill most targets before that CC wears off.

I will say that I don't play LeBlanc (she's not my style of champion) and she is on my perma-ban list, so I haven't seen one recently to back up or refute your other points, but while her full QWE combo does cost a lot of mana and has a fairly long CD, her Q costs only 50 mana and has a CD of 6 seconds. There is nothing to stop her from spamming it at you, and the fact that it's point-and-click means that there is nothing you can do to stop it from damaging you. You can try to trade back with her, but you're still going to have taken damage. You'll be in a weakened state, and when her full combo does come up, she potentially will have the damage to burst you down completely.

Llanite1 votes

It has low range and dmg (if mark not triggered). as all her spells are on cd, you should be able to unleash your full combo as she walk close, then regain hp via pots.

ModAcademy Kayn3 votes

Full combo being a bunch of level 1 spells by level 3. She will also have backed by the time you can retaliate. She's not going to be stupid.

Llanite1 votes

If She W back, She Won't Be Able To Combo Again Till W Cd Is back, I.e. free farm, you can even step forward to stop her from cs, if she dares coming close, pull your full combo.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

First of all, if you read the post, her QWE does up to 300 damage, worth two pots so that's 4 creeps worth of Cs. If you're perfect at cs every round of Creeps you'd be getting 40 gold average, 80 if you get the big creep, if you constantly bought pots to stay in lane.

Second, her QWE costs me half of your health and half of her mana. You may have an 18 second delay to heal up or poke, but the average LB will play safely during that time, bringing up her mana or any health damage she took with her pots. 2 rotations is all she needs before she knows you'll have to back to base, where she'll keep on farming.

Third, save for Annie and Riven, all your example champs cc are skillshot based. Do you expect her to stay in the wide open or stand still so she can get hit? And If she see's that cc incoming, she decide's "Enh 45 extra damage aint worth it" and just re-activate W to get out of there.

Lastly, Akali and Swain have both arguably worse/same laning as LeBlanc. Swain has to go E first or lose out on damage and only gets his sustain when he ults, that means he is level six. My examples are of her early game havoc mainly her first three levels. Akali can farm using a single target ability (Almost like LeBlanc's Q) and can be easily punished for trying to activate her mark to gain health. Galio and Cho are good examples except nobody is going to max Galio's shield first. And... Ori? Really?

Llanite1 votes

After the QWE she has no escape, no cc, and her q hits 60 dmg. Simply step forward and zone her so she loses cs.

lb IS vulnerable during w, toss your cc into the direction shes dashing to ( I.e. you) and she would be cc mid air, effectively nullify both w and e.

Lastry if youd rather rant than learn, good luck, because she IS Balance. Peace.

Champion Skin1 votes

Her snare/slow chain can be rather crippling to some melee champions (and the slow isn't reduced by tenacity which a lot of melee champions build) Like Nasus could be screwed over so hard by LB if she slowed + snared him... especially if she ulted her E (she wouldn't even need any items to do this)

Llanite1 votes

Every mid rapes melee bruiser hard, which is why they have to go top.

air tiger1 votes

{quoted}

  1. Utility: LB has no CC. One can simply toss CC into the direction she's W into, LB could not pull the E chain at all and would lose the trade. Annie Xerath Syndra Riven Ahri

  2. No farm capacity: she has no aoe, q costs lots of mana and has low dmg. If you play any sustain mid Akali Chogath Galio Orianna Swain and ward well (stop roaming), she'll be use less by mid game.

As mentioned, she does have CC. And, unless it's been ninja patched, W is AOE.

Llanite1 votes

Unless maxed, W does 100 dmg and 18s CD, so no, you can't clear a wave with it.

I don't consider a single-targeted slow to be "crowd control". You know what a "crowd" is, yes?

air tiger2 votes

Your attitude is heinous.

Its a slow into a stun, so yes it is CC. CC can be single target. Taric stun is considered CC. Ahri charm is CC. Crowd control doesn't have to be area of affect, it just has to let you control a crowd more easily.

And regardless of how much damage you think w does, it is an AREA OF EFFECT. Lv 1 or 2 may do ~100 dmg base, but put a little AP behind it and it soars way above 100.

I don't understand why you come back at me with attitude when all I've done is make valid claims against your shit post. Oh wait, I do. Because toxicity is the name of this game. Bye.

Llanite1 votes

And I'm sure picking things out of concept would help your life go a long way. Bye and good luck.

I love tits1 votes

Tips to balance her:

  • Reduce her base damage (specially on W)
  • Reduce W travel speed when casting it (not the reactivation)
  • Reduce W's range.
  • Reduce ultimate AP rates.
  • Increase Q CD by 1 second.
  • W would only go on CD after she reactivates W or the time to go back ends. Also, hitbox reduced a little bit.
  • FIx her E's hitbox and range to break the chain. Her E is hitting even if you miss it and the range to break the chain is ridiculous.
  • Her passive stealths her for 1 second (or 0.75 ,not sure) which is enough for her to use a full combo. Give her a 0.5s global silence when the passive pops.

One of even a few of these could help balancing LB w/o destroying her, riot just needs to test and decide.

Lissama2 votes
  • Make her Q to skillshot. (COUNTERPLAY PLS)
Bears Dont Care1 votes

{quoted}

Tips to balance her:

  • Reduce her base damage (specially on W)
  • Reduce W travel speed when casting it (not the reactivation)
  • Reduce W's range.
  • Reduce ultimate AP rates.
  • Increase Q CD by 1 second.
  • W would only go on CD after she reactivates W or the time to go back ends. Also, hitbox reduced a little bit.
  • FIx her E's hitbox and range to break the chain. Her E is hitting even if you miss it and the range to break the chain is ridiculous.
  • Her passive stealths her for 1 second (or 0.75 ,not sure) which is enough for her to use a full combo. Give her a 0.5s global silence when the passive pops.

One of even a few of these could help balancing LB w/o destroying her, riot just needs to test and decide.

Quite sure that would destroy her since again, she needs the damage. Let alone the E hitbox is very accurate, you have packet issues if thats the case. Giving her global silence when her passive pops is retarded.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

I'm not sure if he means global silence by everyone gets silenced, or she gets silenced when her passive proc's. I do hate her passive since it does let her get that last amount of damage to kill you.

She's an assassin with a back up incase she didn't do her job right. It doesn't really punish her to get caught especially when you're the only one to face her. She just invis's and see's if her W is back up to kill ya. The passive its self isn't bad, just her sheer power she can exploit by having it go off.

You're both at low health. Her passive pops, and which one is which!? You have a 50% chance to choose the right one to kill, and that's some random chance you choose the right one. Didn't Riot remove Dodge chance because it was a chance whether you'd survive or not? They've also said how they are thinking of a different mechanic to replace crit if/when they do.

Bears Dont Care1 votes

{quoted}

I'm not sure if he means global silence by everyone gets silenced, or she gets silenced when her passive proc's. I do hate her passive since it does let her get that last amount of damage to kill you.

She's an assassin with a back up incase she didn't do her job right. It doesn't really punish her to get caught especially when you're the only one to face her. She just invis's and see's if her W is back up to kill ya. The passive its self isn't bad, just her sheer power she can exploit by having it go off.

You're both at low health. Her passive pops, and which one is which!? You have a 50% chance to choose the right one to kill, and that's some random chance you choose the right one. Didn't Riot remove Dodge chance because it was a chance whether you'd survive or not? They've also said how they are thinking of a different mechanic to replace crit if/when they do.

If leblancs passive procs late gsme she is going t .die and cannot risk going after you. It isnt a guessing game because all effects on jer will only show on her not the clone. Again, levlanc is not an issue, you just need to learn how to deal with her.

Leblanc is a short range mage, the only thing having range is her E and the damage is pitiful.

Saianna1 votes

Imo if Riot were to nerf LB because of her mobility, then nerf should also include other safe-to-play high burst champions. Otherwise we'll end up with same issues playing against different champions.

WhiskerWow1 votes

I think something that may help, but might be too much, if Leblanc couldn't immediately recast W after dashing. That way people can retaliate when she jumps onto your face.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Personally, despite what I said in some other comment, I don't mind her mobility. It's probably the one thing that keeps her alive. They just have the same dilemma as Fizz. Reliable damage AND mobility. Balance her around her mobility, like they should with Kallista. But don't keep both strong.

RogueWill1 votes

What to do push her lane. get a couple of wards so you don't get ganked and push her lane. She has no way to do wave clearing but her W, but if she uses her W on minions then you can harass her and she won't be able to do much. Hugging turret is such a bad idea since she can go out before the first turret shot.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

Granted, but the thing is, that she may lose out on her CS, if you can push lane that much, but my main point was that she puts too much pressure on the enemy just by being near.

A simple walk is all that stops her from Q-W'ing you (May I add the same simple walk Vieger had). Her Q is too reliable since all she needs is to be within range, and when she is in Q range, she is in W range. You see she is walking towards you, you back away, from your CS, and that's all she needs to zone you. Not some easy to see ability like Lux's E or Viktor's W, just the threat of her being near. Much like Fizz i'd say.

LoRdJeSuS69694201 votes

LB = short range, incredibly squishy, no hard CC, no escape if it is used for damage. She can be hard to lane against early for certain champions, but so what? Go back to base and lose a few CS if you need to. Or try starting something other than a doran's ring that would allow you to buy more potions. You can't go in to a lane vs. a pantheon or gangplank with only 2 potions and expect to do well either. As long as you don't feed you come out way ahead against her.

Your math is also off a bit. LB's W base damage is 85, with a .6 ratio. If you have 38 ap from runes, masteries, and doran ring, that's about 115 damage. With the other laner having about 44 MR, they will have about 30% damage reduction, which makes the total damage dealt about 80 (significantly lower than 100).

You also ignored mana costs and any retaliatory damage you get on her, which are both pretty significant factors.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

"No escape if used for damage". Reread that please. Read that. Now go read W effect.

I don't count Mana and retaliatory since, as long as she gets you down on health, she's damn fine with taking that.

LoRdJeSuS69694201 votes

{quoted}

"No escape if used for damage". Reread that please. Read that. Now go read W effect.

I don't count Mana and retaliatory since, as long as she gets you down on health, she's damn fine with taking that.

Going back to where you cast it from is not an escape. If she uses it for damage, her ability to use it as an escape is gone.

Mana is relevant because, especially if you have a few potions, she will not have enough to kill you--she will need to wait a good amount of time for it to regen, time during which plenty of things can happen.

You also ignored the rest of my post, which had the most relevant points. I will restate:

-She has many drawbacks to compensate for her strong laning (thus her very bad winrate). -You are refusing to experiment with any starts other than doran ring 2-pot, when a few more potions (boots 4 pot, flask 3 pot, mana charm 5 pot, etc) would change things significantly--especially in conjunction with LB's high mana costs. Like I said, I would never go into a lane vs a pantheon or gangplank with only 2 pots either. -Your numbers were exaggerated by a substantial margin.

I would also add that LB's w has a full 18 second CD at level 1, leaving you plenty of time to harass with multiple casts of whatever spell you have before she is able to retaliate again. My guess is you got scared off by the initial hit and then played overly passively, allowing her to trade on her own terms.

SpecterVonBaren1 votes

Maybe make it so her w does less damage but applies a mark similar to Zed's ult that detonates after a certain amount of time but will dispel if w is used again. Make it so she can't just blink back if she wants to get all her damage off.

Abyssphere1 votes

Not to say LeBlanc isn't a bit crazy but when it got to the point in the OP where LeBlanc used her QWE combo on you and you were talking about the "stay or recall" dilemma all I could think was "There is no way LeBlanc's mana pool can sustain this". She's not resourceless or anything and actually has rather prohibitive mana costs in the laning phase.

Den Bover1 votes

If Riot never reworked her, she probably never would have been in the spotlight.

Not everyone complains about a champion that is picked to counter others in the mid lane.

Boulderox1 votes

i really wanna know why she hasn't been hit by the kass nerf on ranges of jumps. that would be a start

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