if youre going to nerf the hell out of overgrowth

Critmaster Garen·Nov 1, 2018·9 votes·2,622 views

how about giving flat +15% bonus health on instead of the cooldown reduction?

just make it the big health item again? it needs a buff anyway.

put a 300 health cap on it if you have to, so it doesnt scale out of control on sion or cho or some shit, but it would be nice to have just a big health pick up in the game again, and give back to the champions who are getting dicked by the overgrowth change (which is literally any champion who builds into more than 2500 max health).

plus, were losing another chunk of health with the rune stat system change.

the possible health bonus gets cut down from 300 at lvl 18 by going into inspiration/resolve, to 90.

19 Comments

iiGazeiiNov 1, 20182 votes

The new Overgrowth continues to stack indefinitely after you reach the threshold, you just get a one-time boost for reaching it.

Critmaster GarenNov 1, 20183 votes

{quoted}

The new Overgrowth continues to stack indefinitely after you reach the threshold, you just get a one-time boost for reaching it.

it still doesnt reach its old value on champions who stack health. not even close.

you get 150 flat health at 400 minions that died nearby plus the 2.5% (100 more health at 4000 max health).

currently youd get a 10% health increase at the same value, which can be easily 300 to 400 health at 3000 to 4000 max health.

the rune is getting shit on for any champion that buys into health.

iiGazeiiNov 1, 20181 votes

400 minions is a ridiculous amount. If you're the type of player to spend 30+ minutes watching minions die without dying, without doing objectives, and without rotating to other lanes, then yes, the new Overgrowth is a nerf.

120 minions is 15 stacks of both versions. These stacks can be achieved after ~19 minion waves, or about 10 minutes of being in lane and never leaving. That's achievable, normal even.

The old Overgrowth gives you +3% max health with 15 stacks.

The new Overgrowth gives you +45 health + 2.5% of your max health with 15 stacks.

Mathematically speaking, the new Overgrowth gives you MORE health with 15 stacks than the old Overgrowth unless you have 9000+ health.

In games that go one forever, the old Overgrowth is better. You could stack up a huge amount of health in an hour-long game. However, the new Overgrowth gives you more health in the early/mid game. 10-15 minutes in, you'd rather have the new Overgrowth than the old one.

Critmaster GarenNov 1, 20183 votes

{quoted}

400 minions is a ridiculous amount. If you're the type of player to spend 30+ minutes watching minions die without dying, without doing objectives, and without rotating to other lanes, then yes, the new Overgrowth is a nerf.

120 minions is 15 stacks of both versions. These stacks can be achieved after ~19 minion waves, or about 10 minutes of being in lane and never leaving. That's achievable, normal even.

The old Overgrowth gives you +3% max health with 15 stacks.

The new Overgrowth gives you +45 health + 2.5% of your max health with 15 stacks.

Mathematically speaking, the new Overgrowth gives you MORE health with 15 stacks than the old Overgrowth unless you have 9000+ health.

In games that go one forever, the old Overgrowth is better. You could stack up a huge amount of health in an hour-long game. However, the new Overgrowth gives you more health in the early/mid game. 10-15 minutes in, you'd rather have the new Overgrowth than the old one.

400 minions isnt that crazy, when you have to remember that you dont actually need to cs them, but only be nearby while they die. this means even in sieges and defenses, when your team is waveclearing, it still stacks up in these situations. this also includes jungle monsters.

even at 300 minions its already a significant loss.

and were also losing out on flat health from runes.

putting potential 300 health back onto warmogs isnt bad to offset that loss at later stages of the game.

SaezioNov 20, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RX5LWwY2,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-01T16:31:59.901+0000)

400 minions isnt that crazy, when you have to remember that you dont actually need to cs them, but only be nearby while they die. this means even in sieges and defenses, when your team is waveclearing, it still stacks up in these situations. this also includes jungle monsters.

even at 300 minions its already a significant loss.

and were also losing out on flat health from runes.

putting potential 300 health back onto warmogs isnt bad to offset that loss at later stages of the game.

When you come to terms with the fact resolve exists as a secondary tree for everyone but tanks you will understand a lot. read this line from 8.23 patch notes and you will understand what I mean "Chrysalis was created to allow damage dealers to splash Resolve by compensating for the lack of damage stats offered by resolve's path bonus. Selectable rune stats solve this problem so Chrysalis is no longer needed."

Disgusted yet? Imagine an alternative world where in the line with coup de grace there was a rune that was 80hp swapped for -10% incoming physical damage after 4 takedowns. And tanks could go for that+ the tenacity. Would anyone not lose their shit? (well except for tanks)

Critmaster GarenNov 20, 20181 votes

{quoted}

When you come to terms with the fact resolve exists as a secondary tree for everyone but tanks you will understand a lot. read this line from 8.23 patch notes and you will understand what I mean "Chrysalis was created to allow damage dealers to splash Resolve by compensating for the lack of damage stats offered by resolve's path bonus. Selectable rune stats solve this problem so Chrysalis is no longer needed."

Disgusted yet? Imagine an alternative world where in the line with coup de grace there was a rune that was 80hp swapped for -10% incoming physical damage after 4 takedowns. And tanks could go for that+ the tenacity. Would anyone not lose their shit? (well except for tanks)

it basically boils down to the issue that riot absolutely refuses to put more than three runes into a row.

the entire rune system simply doesnt have enough runes to provide options to everyone.

so resolve and sorcery are both just degraded to secondary rune pathes for everyone else, while their primary target group gets neglected.

SaezioNov 20, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RX5LWwY2,comment-id=000100000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-20T18:13:22.907+0000)

it basically boils down to the issue that riot absolutely refuses to put more than three runes into a row.

the entire rune system simply doesnt have enough runes to provide options to everyone.

so resolve and sorcery are both just degraded to secondary rune pathes for everyone else, while their primary target group gets neglected.

Well they did put 4 runes in Precision (in keystones nonetheless) their favourite child and the last domination line. And no I think riot just doesn't want tanks because tanks will then shift the meta to shotcalling and rotations and macro instead of the flash-flash-shing-shing-ace that it is now. And player base's attention span is so small (according to riot and their decisions) that such a meta shift should never happen. Just check out how there is not a single resolve rune (other than overgrowth) whose tankiness scales through the game based on items purchased. Instead all damage runes (including ones in resolve) have one way or another to remain relevant come late game. Give some penetration resistance or something to resolve and see if games become less snowbally then... But nonono dat aint fun we want bursts and executes and resets and blinks and TRUE DAMAGE.

SaezioNov 20, 20182 votes

{quoted}

400 minions is a ridiculous amount. If you're the type of player to spend 30+ minutes watching minions die without dying, without doing objectives, and without rotating to other lanes, then yes, the new Overgrowth is a nerf.

120 minions is 15 stacks of both versions. These stacks can be achieved after ~19 minion waves, or about 10 minutes of being in lane and never leaving. That's achievable, normal even.

The old Overgrowth gives you +3% max health with 15 stacks.

The new Overgrowth gives you +45 health + 2.5% of your max health with 15 stacks.

Mathematically speaking, the new Overgrowth gives you MORE health with 15 stacks than the old Overgrowth unless you have 9000+ health.

In games that go one forever, the old Overgrowth is better. You could stack up a huge amount of health in an hour-long game. However, the new Overgrowth gives you more health in the early/mid game. 10-15 minutes in, you'd rather have the new Overgrowth than the old one.

Well that's great and all but in the end it's another tank rune bastardised to fit non-tanky builds. If they wanted to buff it they could have made the ratio 0.25 instead of 0.2 and it still would be picked by no one except very niche cases where it had a chance of being better than revitalise

On an other point, Resolve has the undertitle of (Durability and crowd control) Where is the crowd control? there is not even a single slow in there or any CC enhancements

League is shietNov 20, 20182 votes

Just tested it and its crap, same farm + creeps that died nearby.. approximately 250 HP bonus instead of my regular 500, another nerf.... Seems no longer core for HP scaling champs, my Mundo :(

Critmaster GarenNov 20, 20181 votes

[{quoted}](name=League of Change,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RX5LWwY2,comment-id=0003,timestamp=2018-11-20T17:48:46.248+0000)

Just tested it and its crap, same farm + creeps that died nearby.. approximately 250 HP bonus instead of my regular 500, another nerf.... Seems no longer core for HP scaling champs, my Mundo :(

i mean anyone could have done the math before. ive tried to make people aware of this for the past 3 weeks.

it was a mediocre to sub par rune from the start, because it never provided any immediate value and only became relevant at 25 to 30 minutes and beyond.

now its neither worth early game, nor lategame because it entirely lost its scaling.

all for the sake of "now adc might maybe think about picking it".

Moody PNov 1, 20181 votes

based Volibear buffs

Critmaster GarenNov 1, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RX5LWwY2,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2018-11-01T15:01:04.436+0000)

based Volibear buffs

i mean. hes like garbage tier atm, so why not.

Moody PNov 1, 20181 votes

he's solid B or A- not nearly as bad as low elo boards posters like to act

Critmaster GarenNov 1, 20183 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RX5LWwY2,comment-id=000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-01T15:12:57.848+0000)

he's solid B or A- not nearly as bad as low elo boards posters like to act

he has less than 1% pickrate, and not even 51% winrate. that means the only people who are playing him currently are his mains, and theyre not even doing good.

usually youd expect such a low play rate champion to have at least like 53% winrate, because it means hes picked generally rarely only into very favourable teamcomps or by experienced mains.

it means hes really only currently picked if an enemy teamcomp happens to favour him, but hes not even doing particularly good in those cases.

Moody PNov 1, 20181 votes

check his highest avg not the regular

many Volibear one tricks even up to mid high diamond maintain impressive win rates

his problem has never been being bad (besides preseason when he became super dumpster before buffs) it's been that he has ridiculous lack of offensive stats in a game where other fighters have monstrous AD ratios

Volibear is too reliant on one stat (health) and the way it's been handled makes him more snowball dependent every season, degrading an otherwise inoffensive fighter design both for playing as and against him

Critmaster GarenNov 1, 20182 votes

[{quoted}](name=Moody P,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RX5LWwY2,comment-id=00000000000000000000,timestamp=2018-11-01T15:17:44.672+0000)

check his highest avg not the regular

many Volibear one tricks even up to mid high diamond maintain impressive win rates

his problem has never been being bad (besides preseason when he became super dumpster before buffs) it's been that he has ridiculous lack of offensive stats in a game where other fighters have monstrous AD ratios

Volibear is too reliant on one stat (health) and the way it's been handled makes him more snowball dependent every season, degrading an otherwise inoffensive fighter design both for playing as and against him

i mean either way.

the rune changes the next season are a massive health nerf overall.

overgrowth gets a huge hit for any champion who builds more than 2500 health (including its flat bonus). which is basically any champion whod pick the rune right now.

and rune health is nerfed down to 90 at lvl 18, when its currently 135 health up to 300 health.

so it would basically just be a way to give the lost value back to health stacking champions.

LilxPaprikaNov 1, 20181 votes

didn't they just nerf warmogs? because i guess they thought it was too strong. thing with warmog's is its passive is so strong. if you want more hp you'd need a different passive, likely in the form of a different item.

Critmaster GarenNov 1, 20182 votes

{quoted}

didn't they just nerf warmogs?

no? it didnt really get touched in years. the last time it was changed, the health threshold for the regeneration was increased slightly, which was mainly intended to hit soraka, because her w didnt turn off warmogs passive, and she used it to spam heal without risk.

the one before was a buff in season 7 that didnt really do anything, and then it goes back to the tank update somewhere season 6 when all defensive items were changed.

its just barely bought anymore, since the defensive gain isnt as significant as what you gain from health/resistance items (since resistances multiply the health from the items and your base health). and the passive isnt exactly priority on any champion.

plus, there is a lot of % hp damage on items and in champion kits, so flat health just became worth less over the years the more % health damage was introduced.

Iota ThetaNov 20, 20181 votes

I’d be perfectly fine with this adjustment. Tanks and Juggernauts tend to pick up a good bit of CDR between item 3065 item 3001 item 3194 , and item 3078 item 3071 for fighters. Be nice to have Warmog’s be a proper capstone health item, similar to Rabadon’s and how IE used to be with crit amp.