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Dead Man's Plate and Ranged Champions

Gnart Even Close··4 votes·4,658 views
Dead Man's Plate

"On ranged champions, CRUSHING BLOW cannot deal damage, nor slow. However, Momentum will still discharge on on-hit."

I understand that when Dead Man's Plate was released, it was broken and this prevented ranged champions from abusing it. Now, it's a pretty balanced item, and only a few ranged champions would benefit from being able to proc Dead Man's Plate, namely Gnar, Graves, and Quinn. All other ranged champions can't afford to build tanky unless they get consistent damage out of it, like the AD on Sterak's Gage or Maw of Malmortius. I understand the reasoning behind not wanting ranged champions to proc the slow to be able to kite and stick better without building an item for it like Frozen Mallet or Trinity Force, but why can't the damage proc? These champions are punished for using basic attacks with no compensation, and it's not like they can simply not use their basic attacks. Why is this the case? Even if neither the slow or the doubled damage from being at max stacks were applied for ranged champions, it would at least feel better on champions who would want to build it like Gnar.

A Riot response would be greatly appreciated, even if it was only to explain to me why it's fine the way that it is and doesn't need any changes, so that I, and many others, can understand why it works the way it does. And if that's the case, can there be a tooltip adjustment to make it clearer how it works for ranged champions?

20 Comments

Teridax681 votes

Considering how tanky builds on champions intended to be squishy are causing pretty serious gameplay issues right now, I don't think it would be appropriate to give marksmen better access to tanky options. DMP is likely overused already because of the combination of offensive and defensive bonuses it offers, and it would be ill-advised to have it do the same to a class of champions that's already unpleasant to deal with whenever they get to be too durable while still being able to deal damage.

Gnart Even Close1 votes

it would only really affect a very specific subset of champions, namely gnar, graves, and quinn. none of the other ranged champions can really afford to get pure defense items, and one damage proc isn't enough. maw and sterak's have AD on them so they don't lose too much DPS. those problem builds are all melee champions, like Ekko and Fizz. Graves is a special champion, but he's gotten quite a few hits recently and the changes making Maw and Sterak's no longer stack should be another nerf to him. He also values flat AD way too much to want to choose Dead Man's Plate over other items. Quinn is pretty similar, although she would probably use Dead Man's Plate really well due to the movement speed. However, that is a fair interaction in my opinion, and would be purchased for even more roaming, not for damage. Gnar would be the main beneficiary in being able to actually build that armor item. He would like more movement speed, and he currently can't really get it since Randuin's Omen is the superior damage reduction item, and Sunfire Cape is primarily used to transform more quickly. I understand your concern, but I don't think it would become a problem as long as it was reduced power, such as no slow and maybe even reduced damage as well.

Teridax681 votes

Gnar has a melee form, so he can technically already make use of DMP's damage, but Graves is pretty much the poster boy for all the problems tied to making marksmen too tanky. He's objectively too strong now precisely because he makes such good use of the Sterak's + Maw combo, and doesn't really need or deserve good access to tanky options, since he's meant to be more vulnerable at the start of fights up until he gets his resistance boost going. Quinn is an assassin-y marksman who's meant to put herself at risk through her short combat range and Vault, and I don't think giving her a tanky damage option would make her any healthier. Considering how the item started out with a restriction on ranged champion in the first place, it's likely it was creating enough issues to warrant its implementation.

Gnart Even Close1 votes

It's not really a damage item. All I ask is why it can't even do 50 damage, since it literally gives nothing for wasting the movement speed for ranged champions. Giving up 60 movement speed for 50 damage is not even a good trade, it's just less punishing. Quinn already builds somewhat tanky, and the Sterak's Maw combo won't work anymore since they share passives in 6.9. The problem isn't that marksmen are too tanky, it's that their too tanky without giving up enough damage. If Graves builds DMP, that should be a significant drop in damage, but a one-time 50 damage proc is not that much. Without the slow, the passive is much weaker, and with reduced damage, I simply don't see that it could become a problem.

Teridax681 votes

In that case, why is the bonus damage that important? DMP's movement speed bonus is only meant to apply out of combat, hence the momentum mechanics and whatnot, so spending it once you enter combat isn't really a loss or a waste of any kind. I also agree that the problem with most tanky damage builds is that there isn't an appropriate enough tradeoff between damage and defenses, but buffing that item's damage will only worsen the problem, however marginally.

Gnart Even Close1 votes

the damage is important because without it, it makes the item almost unusable on champions like gnar. just having the damage would mean it would be a good situational item without being broken. that's all I ask for, nothing more. I don't think that's unreasonable

Lenaro1 votes

This would actually change a great deal more characters than you're anticipating; any ranged initiator (often filling support) could easily justify picking up DMP. Bard, Janna, Lulu, Sona, and Thresh could all use DMP to varying levels of success. In all cases it would offer a solid armor item for initiation, as is these characters often find themselves with item 3050 item 3143 item 3025 item 3110, none of which are as perfect an engage item. If DMP didn't penalize ranged characters I would pick it up on Bard very frequently.

Poske1 votes

{quoted}

This would actually change a great deal more characters than you're anticipating; any ranged initiator (often filling support) could easily justify picking up DMP. Bard, Janna, Lulu, Sona, and Thresh could all use DMP to varying levels of success. In all cases it would offer a solid armor item for initiation, as is these characters often find themselves with item 3050 item 3143 item 3025 item 3110, none of which are as perfect an engage item. If DMP didn't penalize ranged characters I would pick it up on Bard very frequently.

Bard - yes Janna just no Lulu Just no Sona just no Thresh well easier hooks its possibility I generaly think mobi boots are enough for him Gnar yes Quinn - I cant see it doubt it Graves - Well given that Sterak maw etc wont stack soon yes

Gnart Even Close1 votes

pretty much how I see it as well, although Quinn might like it for the movement speed.

Quepha1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RNAGEthe,comment-id=00010000,timestamp=2016-04-29T12:06:00.965+0000)

Janna just no Lulu Just no Sona just no

why not? when in the support position they rarely auto attack waves allowing them to hold onto that slow for when they need it, they need to roam for vision control so out of combat movespeed is very important, and if they're building cheerleader then tankiness is their second priority behind utility.

Poske1 votes

{quoted}

why not? when in the support position they rarely auto attack waves allowing them to hold onto that slow for when they need it, they need to roam for vision control so out of combat movespeed is very important, and if they're building cheerleader then tankiness is their second priority behind utility.

Game is already overloaded with slows and slow itself isnt really good cc

I suppose if you are against kalista you can buy it on them to fk up her hoping but thats about it

Sona is to busy going Frost queen That as Steroid item mikeals lockets etc . Eh what am I saying 90% of sonas are to busy building ap And given that she already has slow with her e + basic she doesnt need another one which might aswell get proced in the same time making it ultra not worth

Same can be said about lulu

If janna can go dead man then velkoz can go infinity its that far off

Lenaro1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sub HeroCro,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RNAGEthe,comment-id=0001000000010000,timestamp=2016-04-29T16:41:29.538+0000)

Game is already overloaded with slows and slow itself isnt really good cc

I suppose if you are against kalista you can buy it on them to fk up her hoping but thats about it

Sona is to busy going Frost queen That as Steroid item mikeals lockets etc . Eh what am I saying 90% of sonas are to busy building ap And given that she already has slow with her e + basic she doesnt need another one which might aswell get proced in the same time making it ultra not worth

Same can be said about lulu

If janna can go dead man then velkoz can go infinity its that far off

Slows are great CC if they facilitate lockdown. Sure, if you slow and then have no follow-up you're getting nothing, but any support with extra slows or CC would make great use of a free extra slow on their kit. This would be yet another option for utility supports to effectively engage. Janna could make amazing use of DMP, you didn't remotely explain why you think the item is so far off. It gives extra MS to allow easier engage, it gives an extra slow which can be used before/after using her w to slow for longer or to allow her to more easily land her q, and it provides armor and hp. The only other item which provides armor and hp available to utility supports is Randuin's, but depending on your team you might not need the disengage provided by Randuin's and might instead prefer extra engage ability.

There are staggeringly few armor options for utility supports that make sense in the average game. You have Frozen Heart, Randuins, and Zeke's (Which provides little armor). DMP would be the 3rd primary armor option for utility supports and while it would be interesting to have that option as it would provide primary uses for each (FH for auto-attackers, Randuin's for disengage, and DMP for engage) it would also provide tons of new opportunities for characters currently balanced and it's entirely possible that many utility supports would need compensation nerfs following a change.

Poske1 votes

{quoted}

Slows are great CC if they facilitate lockdown. Sure, if you slow and then have no follow-up you're getting nothing, but any support with extra slows or CC would make great use of a free extra slow on their kit. This would be yet another option for utility supports to effectively engage. Janna could make amazing use of DMP, you didn't remotely explain why you think the item is so far off. It gives extra MS to allow easier engage, it gives an extra slow which can be used before/after using her w to slow for longer or to allow her to more easily land her q, and it provides armor and hp. The only other item which provides armor and hp available to utility supports is Randuin's, but depending on your team you might not need the disengage provided by Randuin's and might instead prefer extra engage ability.

There are staggeringly few armor options for utility supports that make sense in the average game. You have Frozen Heart, Randuins, and Zeke's (Which provides little armor). DMP would be the 3rd primary armor option for utility supports and while it would be interesting to have that option as it would provide primary uses for each (FH for auto-attackers, Randuin's for disengage, and DMP for engage) it would also provide tons of new opportunities for characters currently balanced and it's entirely possible that many utility supports would need compensation nerfs following a change.

There is like 1% chance for compensation nerfs after that change

Janna and dead man have nothing incommon . I guess she could build mejai and be even more uncatchable But what does she offers to the team

Dead man is a selfish item

Dead man plate isnt an engage item. Its to weak at doing that You might aswell buy the item 3069 item 3800 which do 5 times better job

Gnart Even Close1 votes

Most ranged "initiators" aren't tanks, so they wouldn't want it. I can only think of Thresh and Bard (somewhat), who it wouldn't really be a problem on. The stat line for other champions simply wouldn't be worth it since it doesn't provide good supportive actives/passives.

Lord Boltrix1 votes

God forbid there is an item that Ezreal hasn't broken yet.

I could accept it being restricted to champions with less than 500 range so that it could be used for ranged bruisers.

Gnart Even Close1 votes

that would be reasonable. I don't believe anything like that has ever been done before, but they could do something similar with Sterak's Gage as well

Quepha1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Gnart Even Close,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RNAGEthe,comment-id=,timestamp=2016-04-29T10:50:03.399+0000)

Now, it's a pretty balanced item, and only a few ranged champions would benefit from being able to proc Dead Man's Plate, namely Gnar, Graves, and Quinn.

Buffing Graves is not a convincing argument.

Gnart Even Close1 votes

Graves has more nerfs on the PBE, and he recently got nerfs to his basic attacks, and they hit pretty hard. He actually has a normal winrate now. If you look on the PBE, he is getting heavy indirect nerfs because he can't stack the passives on Maw and Sterak's anymore. I don't think DMP will break Graves by any stretch of the imagination.

Nekusen1 votes

item 3742 is an item for melee champs to be able to catch up their target, so it's natural that they try to prevent ranged champions from abusing it.

Gnart Even Close1 votes

I don't think ranged champions would abuse it any more than they would abuse something like boots of mobility. they don't really need the item, unless they want a tanky initiating option, which would be pretty limited in scope. graves could use it for a bit more burst/mobility, gnar could use it very well, and quinn could use it for stronger roaming. no other ranged champions would be likely to effectively use it. that being said, it was intended as a juggernaut item, but even now, many juggernauts don't get it while champions like lee sin use it (most common champion to get DMP according to lolking). i would only think it's fair that if lee sin can use it, then a small subset of ranged champions should be able to use it as well.

ADCs also have phantom dancer if they want to catch up to enemy champions, so I think it's highly unlikely that DMP would be abused by ranged champions unless PD was gutted

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