All this Ahri talk

Slythion·Mar 30, 2017·50 votes·2,327 views

but none about Janna, despite their statistics being nearly the exact same for the past couple seasons

It's easier to complain about Ahri because she's flashy and you can see her direct results from her actions. Janna works through others so it doesn't seem like she has as much of a direct impact, because she's a support

They have both been consistent, reliable strong picks without being outright broken imo. Is that a bad thing? Idk (personally I feel like it means they are fairly balanced), but that's not the point of this post.

If we're gonna start caring about consistently strong picks (instead of fotm), lets at least be...well...consistent about it.

I just want to stress this though: I'm not defending Ahri. don't be that dimwit that downvotes just because you saw an Ahri post that isn't flaming her or calling for nerfs :^)

56 Comments

EedatMar 30, 201719 votes

I said something about it early but it gets completely ignored.

https://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/5EA3Kqsz-literally-no-other-champion-that-had-a-stable-53-win-rate-since-season-5-but-ahri?comment=0029

Any attempts in the past have been downvoted into oblivion by support mains.

I gave up. Good luck sir. You'll need it, trust me.

vOmvbrawfUMar 31, 20178 votes

Seriously, the boards have a hard on for supports lol.

LauchmelderMar 31, 201711 votes

As an Ex support: "fuck Janna"

You could literally first time her in ranked and get the same result a 200+ games Thresh OTP has.

2Charmnot2CharmMar 31, 20171 votes

And then you get the janna players on your team that has absolutely no idea wtf they are doing even when janna is a so easy to pick up.

Fuck janna players.

FairyfleurMar 31, 20172 votes

I think those Janna "players" are just the people who pick Janna when they get autofilled.

2Charmnot2CharmApr 1, 20171 votes

I'm not talking about auto filled players, i'm talking about these high elo "janna" mains that think they know what they are doing but in reality they don't and are being toxic to their team that i see in high elo adc streams.

Supreme Senpai69Mar 31, 20171 votes

I dunno about other people but for me it's like. What do you want to do to Janna? She's literally the most single nerfed champion in the history of League. Do you want to nerf her? She's still going to have the same winrate. It's her kit, not her numbers. She's just so insanely strong against all these assassin/engage champions that want to murder your ADC. It doesn't matter what the cooldown or damage or mana cost of her knockup is because it's still gonna knock the enemy team up. Anything short of a rework will have zero effect. But she's not so bad that she needs a rework, not for the next 5 years at least. There's better people that could have it (inb4 Ryze joke.) Tbh the main issue is, even though her skill ceiling is a lot higher than people would like to admit, her skill floor is so insanely low that it's a joke.

I will also point out that because of this, and because of how general she is and how safe she makes her ADC, it might also be possible that she's strong when an ADC is strong? That shouldn't excuse her from nerfs obviously. But what if in this example, right now, Lucian is the strong ADC. He has a 53% winrate. Janna, being so generalist, can just piggyback off that winrate and win or lose with the Lucian. Every meta has that ADC that is just glaringly strong. And Janna is picked so much that she's gonna be paired with that ADC a lot more than other champions. Unlike Blitz who can miss hooks and be useless or hook the tank, etc, Janna cannot miss her shield or her ult, etc. She really cannot bring her ADC down, she can either bring nothing or help her ADC a lot. But with her kit she isn't really gonna feed or ruin teamfights. Even Soraka has to pay with her own HP which if she's bad ends in feeding the enemy gold.

Janna's just a free ride which is her ADC's game to win or lose. Hrm, maybe she does need a rework.

EedatMar 31, 20172 votes

Something about her skill floor needs to be done. It's extremely low. Panick pressing R in a fight completely denies any engage. Her Q shouldn't be able to instantly be double tapped for an instant tornado. Other than that she has a point and click shield and a point and click slow.

She's a support that offers very little damage to be fair but the insane amount of utility she offers doesnt require much skill unlike Thresh

Her absurd synergy with item 3190 item 3107 is another problem but thats not specific to just her

Supreme Senpai69Mar 31, 20171 votes

Yea that's what I mean though. What can you nerf about her that won't completely gut her? The problem's her kit.

Sire HippingtonMar 31, 20172 votes

Pretty easy: Hit her instant cast Q, give it the sion treatment: It only hard CCs after like 0.5 sec of chargeing and instead applies a strong slow on double tap, this would mean she can't just negate any gapcloseing atempts with her Q and keep her R as emergency button vs proper flanks. She could get compensated by more powerfull charged up Qs, maybe finaly a target indicator visible to her and her allies while it's charegeing.

FairyfleurMar 31, 20171 votes

Why would support mains downvote it besides deticated Janna players? However, I can see people who fall on Janna as an autofill pick downvote it.

MicbranMar 31, 201710 votes

An anti-Janna thread? Count me in.

FegoneMar 31, 20175 votes

WTF is all this complaining about Ahri? Literally easiest skillshots to dodge, not very far ranged either, and no 100-0 potential... am I the only one not affected by this?

AzteryzMar 31, 20174 votes

you might be

plus her skill shot and ranged counterplay gets nullified by her ult

Dream HighApr 1, 20172 votes

As Ahri i've always had a hard time killing any laner who builds health, think Swain or simply build this item 1057 . But people don't want to play accordingly then complain about getting 100-0 by a fed Ahri who lands her full combo + protobelt + ignite on them when they have no health or mr. Frankly if you get hit by any mages full combo you deserve to die.

FegoneApr 3, 20171 votes

Exactly. There is no mage that has his full combo without any skillshots involved, and if you're just dressing up as a target practice and let everything hit you, well, you got outplayed. That's how this game works.

48983507DEL1Mar 31, 20174 votes

Don't bother bringing this up.

Janna mains refuse to believe their champ is strong, despite consistently being the most picked support with the highest win rate, patch after patch after patch.

Ariel the CruelMar 31, 20175 votes

Janna does 1 Thing: Peel. 1 thing has always remained a top priority in every meta: Safety.

Janna creates the safest environment for her ADC. Therefore, she will always be strong. It's not even a question of numbers. Her kit is just super specialized to be incredibly good at something that is always valuable. That's why she maintains such a high win-rate, despite a really long history of nerfs.

ShablagooMar 31, 20172 votes

Why is it though that mid, top, adc, and jg can have a overpowered person, like graves or ahri but support cant? Its obvious that for her role she is doing something to good over all the other supports that give her a consistently high winrate.

SlythionMar 31, 20172 votes

I never said it wasn't alright for her to be consistently strong, I even said that it indicates reliable balance actually. I was just noting the inconsistency between the board's reaction to Ahri compared to Janna

Why is it though that mid, top, adc, and jg can have a overpowered person, like graves or ahri but support cant?

and I feel like it's reversed. You see the boards complaining about op champions (even though Ahri is far from being top of the list op) from every class but the support class, you almost never see post complaining about op supports (and believe me, there are op supports) unless it's a mage

Risk of FateMar 31, 20172 votes

Because supports are the most overlooked players and characters in the entire game. All the plays are made by the big boys in Mid and Carry or even Jungle with the flashes, knockbacks and right-clicking power. Only time that people seem to complain about them is when THEY DO THEIR ACTUAL FRICKING JOB which is defending the carry. Sona did a good job: nerf. Soraka did a good job: nerfs for days, Lulu went from support to mid: nerf so she stays mid, pretty much if a Support is doing exactly their intended role, they will get gutted to allow for the other four people to shine.

Supreme Senpai69Mar 31, 20174 votes

I think they nerfed Lulu support when Lulu mid was too strong, and to be fair Soraka totally deserved nerfs (they just nerfed the wrong thing about her, nerfing W's CD is just gonna make them max it first.) I played Sona the first day of her update and she totally completely deserved nerfs. I had like an 89% kill participation. Her E was soooo OP.

To be completely honest, it's usually the other way around isn't it? Mid champions that go support get nerfed and ruin it for the mid laners. But the reverse is true for itemization; mid laners who take support items get them nerfed and ruin it for the support players

Risk of FateMar 31, 20171 votes

Never said they didn't deserve them when it was needed, but the point I was trying to get across is that whenever a support either performs as intended or manage to do well in a lane outside their own, they're turned into walking heal bots and ward bots. Soraka's Q quite literally does piss-all for damage even when you go full AP, but that' to compensate for the heal. I don't know why the Q and W are tied together. Make the heal a flat amount and up the Q AP ratios a bit and she'd be fine.

Supreme Senpai69Mar 31, 20171 votes

The intent was to make her have some lane interaction so she can't sit back and spam W. This way if she doesn't want to commit seppuku healing her ADC she needs to step up and land a Q

That was the intent, anyway

Sexy Jack RabbitMar 31, 20172 votes

The thing about Sona, Janna and Soraka having such high and consistent win rates is just because they are SO Braindead simple and easy.

The main difference between Janna and Ahri, is that Janna isn't capable of killing your squishies, snowballing the game and winning other champions lanes due to roams. Janna can cover up A LOT (Probably too many) of your ADC's mistakes, but in the end she still needs a lot more team co-operation then Ahri does to bring the game to a close.

A LOT of people are bias towards Janna, and whilst yeah people need to be more consistent in their circle jerking, in the end all Janna can do is cover up the enemies mistakes. She's just an Enchanter and her impact on the game is only comparable to how good the rest of her team is. She can help her ADC win lane, but in the end the whole situation isn't in her hands. Ahri on the other hand is a lot more capable of winning her lane, and roaming Top/Bot, securing more objectives and then closing the game out. I wouldn't necessarily say Ahri is capable of solo carrying a game, but she's a lot better at pushing the game in an aggressive manner, whereas all of Janna's power is passive and reactive.

I've probably glazed over a lot more points, but my general point is that whilst people ARE Bias towards Janna, it's more understandable as her success come late game is entirely based on the skill of the rest of her team.

HalcyonDwellerMar 31, 20171 votes

I think that people are downvoting you for saying they are braindead and simple. Was that your point or is your point that Ahri is circlejerked more because she is more visibly impactful?

Sexy Jack RabbitMar 31, 20171 votes

Idm downvotes. And yeah that's my point.

freeloader25Mar 31, 20172 votes

funny thing is that janna got nerfed a lot of times and still is overwhelming in every aspect. the most common argument against janna nerfs is "shes only strong due to the current meta!"... for 3 years straight this is the main argument. she was never weak, there only has been times where she was even stronger than usual.

the problem is her kit. how are you supposed to kill someone protected by a well playing janna? you either kill them before janna even can react or you will get peeled of with 3 (!!!) spells and have to deal with a fairly strong shield and heal aswell as a bonus 1000+ gold of stats on the target. the only chance to ever manage to do that is within a teamfight where janna has to peel multiple people one after another or cc and kill janna. but better cc her for the whole time it takes, otherwise you have to deal with the same problems you are facing when trying to kill the champ she is protecting.

i just dont see why janna is allowed to have such a good peel for other players but is ALSO able to protect herself such as well. take soraka for example: she is strong when it comes to protect other people, but weak if she gets engaged on instead. why does janna not have to pay anything? why is she allowed to basically be unkillable herself while offering such advantages for others? make her shield non-selfcastable, take away her ms bonus or something else. even if she needs number buffs afterwards.

number nerfs wont do anything to janna as the past has shown, so they should start targeting her kit.

nice tableMar 31, 20172 votes

imagine if every champion was fairly balanced at 54% win ratio :^)

SlythionMar 31, 20171 votes

52.74% win ratio actually

It hasn't even been above a 53.3% win ratio in 5 patches. Point is she's consistently strong without being op, which is a healthy balance for meta Even if you don't like X champion being strong, having a consistent 52-53% win ratio for a champion without any fluctuation indicates a fairly balanced champion. No everyone can be 50% win ratio, a 52% isn't all that bad so long as it doesn't spike with metas (which she doesn't)

but once again, that wasn't the point of the post :3

nice tableMar 31, 20171 votes

in diamond shes at 8th highest win ratio and has more than twice the amount of games played as the other 7, a champion thats been in top 10 of 130+ champions for years seems pretty balanced right :^)

SlythionApr 1, 20171 votes

Just because she's consistently strong doesn't mean she's broken or unbalanced even. It just means she isn't effected by metas, and personally, I'm ok with it so long as she doesn't spike or become unfair. I personally don't mind having staple champions, I don't mind if every single champion has to lose viability for the sake of diversity. I believe in a healthy balance between diversity and consistency, and that's where I value Janna.

Of course, that is just a personal opinion. I'm sure she's unbalanced from your perspective, but to me "strong" isn't synonymous with "unbalanced". A 51-53% win ratio isn't game breaking and doesn't really cause too many problems opposed to Ivern's 57% ratio (that's been like that for over 5 patches in a row now)

DunkinNoobsMar 31, 20172 votes

The fact that Ivern has been sitting at a 56%+ winrate the entire goddamn season is the real eyesore. Can you imagine if a champ the boards hated like Yasuo or Lee had a 56% winrate for several patches in a row? The front page would be nothing but "nerf X" threads every goddamn day if that were the case. But support champs? They can just stay OP forever because it doesn't matter how busted a champ is if they aren't personally killing you.

KorijenkinsMar 30, 20171 votes

Heres my 2 cents. If there are champions with a winrate higher than 52% while other champions are under 46% the game is not balanced. Obviously there isn't a way to perfectly balance the game and it never will happen. My biggest gripe has always been that Riot likes to talk about how patches change the game, yet there are so many meta knight champions that stay good from patch to patch. Ori is the biggest example to me. In season 3 she was strong. Fast forward 4 seasons and shes still strong. Orianna is broken in the right hands, yet when Taliyah was in the same boat they had to nerf her to uselessness.

Like I said, when good champions remain good for so long it makes the game feel stale, at least to me. Champions that annoyed me in season 3 are generally still annoying, Lee Sin is still good, Orianna, Ahri. Obviously other champions have faltered, but not because of riot nerfing them but because of new champions that did their job better, think Amumu and Malphite. Malphite was a good wombo champion until they added Gnar and then there was a better wombo champion. Of course this is all just from my own perspective. I'm not a challenger player, I can only speculate based on my own experiences.

SlythionMar 31, 20171 votes

I completely agree, except for the Amumu part. Amumu only got bad because jungle changes going into S7 fucked with ap junglers, especially ap tanks :(

but ya, Riot definitely plays favorites

ThefrostyvikingMar 31, 20171 votes

{quoted}

Heres my 2 cents. If there are champions with a winrate higher than 52% while other champions are under 46% the game is not balanced. Obviously there isn't a way to perfectly balance the game and it never will happen. My biggest gripe has always been that Riot likes to talk about how patches change the game, yet there are so many meta knight champions that stay good from patch to patch. Ori is the biggest example to me. In season 3 she was strong. Fast forward 4 seasons and shes still strong. Orianna is broken in the right hands, yet when Taliyah was in the same boat they had to nerf her to uselessness.

Like I said, when good champions remain good for so long it makes the game feel stale, at least to me. Champions that annoyed me in season 3 are generally still annoying, Lee Sin is still good, Orianna, Ahri. Obviously other champions have faltered, but not because of riot nerfing them but because of new champions that did their job better, think Amumu and Malphite. Malphite was a good wombo champion until they added Gnar and then there was a better wombo champion. Of course this is all just from my own perspective. I'm not a challenger player, I can only speculate based on my own experiences.

Ori is more team reliant than Taliyah is tho, and far from as difficult to kill.

And she doesn't kite as hard either.

Nor does she roam like a nomad never staying anywhere.

Ori just peacefully deploys her ball like a sledgehammer and tries to brutally murder her lane opponent with plenty of obvious intent on how she intends to do it.

.....I don't have any problem with her compared to Syndra or LB who both sit in the same boat.

KeevalroyMar 31, 20171 votes

I mean you can try and explain how she just E's and floats around behind the tower, but what defenders I've seen on here at least, will insist she requires intense decision making and definitely does have playmaking potential. It's not like there's an "E to challenger" stigma or anything. Dunno where that coulda come from since she's apparently very difficult...

NymzoMar 31, 20171 votes

I think the biggest problem is that she's too good of a counter pick against your team if you have up to 2 or 4 melees.

But against ranged champions, she is just a shield bot (most of the time).

And she got nerfed multiple times and nothing changed.

Athenes LuluMar 31, 20171 votes

Lulu hehe xd

also its just the meta ;)

SlythionMar 31, 20171 votes

[slayer-jinx-unamused]

Athenes LuluApr 1, 20171 votes

;)))))))))))))))))

lulu is good in a meta where ppl die in a second it's not just the poke xD

TNHA BaritoneMar 31, 20171 votes

All I have been seeing is posts that talk about champions with consistently high win rates: Ahri, Lucian, Janna.

Are they broken? No. Are they really strong? Yes. Lucian is strong and usually always is since can go the BoTK builds or Crit (whenever either is strong than the other) and has high mobility and damage. Similar to Ahri, in the sense that they both have item variability (to some degree), intense mobility, and high damage. Guess what counters the intense mobility and high damage? Intense Peel & Overwhelming protection provided by Janna. The difference is Janna will always have her kit since it is not dependent on AP (this is where supports like Sona struggle). Ahri and Lucian can lose lane and be weak. Janna can lose lane and still help her team.

ShadòwMar 31, 20171 votes

exactly

BisaknospMar 31, 20171 votes

only things these cancerous beings come up with are winrate+pickrate and then some exaggerated shit that isnt true i really hope that riot will keep ignoring this crap

a few weeks ago it was cait (still is i think) and now its ahri xdddd

janna has the same stats for seasons and no1 complains about her

these double standards xdddd yet they dare calling riot out because of it when they are not any better

Sire HippingtonMar 31, 20171 votes

Well, i voice my concerns for janna in many occasions, it's just the people somehow have that wierd idea that supportive champs, especailly enchanters, can't be broken under any circumstances, and the mains of those champs are generally delusional about them(not all though). For example, back when Sona(who has only slightly worse stats than janna) had a 58% win after her mini rework, there were still some sona mains claiming she was balanced or even weak.

Now on topic: I truely belive that consistent high winrates with atleast decent pickrates are a strong indicator for an inherently to strong kit, especially if those stats are hardly impacred by noumerous number nerfs like it is the case with janna, and that those champions might need some changes to their kit. Janna probably has been hit by more nerfs than nearly any other champ, yet her winrate hardly ever dropped below 52% at any point since her existence, cause she still hardcounters about 50% of all champs(prettymuch all melees) while offering good alround utillity on top. They nerfed most of her numbers, touched her passive and W a bit, but they never really touched the main issue that causes her to fuck over anyone that tries to enter her backline: Her Q+R. She got two buttons that just instantly cancle any dashes and stuff on aoe. If janna has well enough reactions, there is nothing that almost any melee can ever do to reach her carry, that also gets shielded and healed in the provess and gets a BFswords worth of ad ontop.

For Ahrie, i think the mix of massive mobillity, lots of damage and one of the most potent hard ccs in the game allows for insane pickpotential, just that she at the same time has a great laning phase with good early pushing+tradeing and some sustain(which about all other mages lack) with good safety from her Q speed and the ult, and at the same time strong teamfighting cause of her high mobillity(asy positioning), low CDs and the truedamage on Q that allows her to wear down frontlines quite effective for how high her kill potential vs squishys in the backline. She does everything but waveclearing well, and even excells at geting picks, She's a jack of all trades and master of ~~none~~ one, and that's not ok. If you are a good alrounder, you shouldn't be allowed to have somewthing that you excell at aswell, or if you excell at somethng, you should have some weakness aswell.

Dominick DestineApr 1, 20171 votes

Janna is balanced by being one of the least "Able to carry a game" supports in the game.

She has been good forever and the few times she has not been good was when Riot, even by their own admission, went severely overboard with the nerfs.

Dream HighApr 1, 20171 votes

I know, Jana is the Ahri of support and I guarentee more people first time her in rank or just play her for autofill, her win rate can be higher. The vast majority of Ahri players have mid as their main role.

Don't get me started on Lucian, almost 50% pick rate with over a 50% win rate. But Ahri a champion that has hardly changed is suddenly broken beyond belief.