actually though, why? I thought the rune update was to make runes available for anyone and everyone, but a restriction like that obviously bars new players from creating runes that are more viable for their current favorite champ.
It doesn't make much sense to me
Gigglingdeath54 votesThe reason is because new players literally have no idea what's going on 90% of the time. Riot wants them to focus on their gameplay rather than the additional things like runes and summoner spells. That's why they wait so long, because by level 17 they think "well maybe they can handle it". Otherwise, it's too overwhelming. This might not have been a problem in the beginning of league when many less champions were present, but now... I mean there's a lot to take in and learn.
RiotSparkle56 votesThis. Learning the game comes before learning the pregame, IMO.
All players have a full page of runes from level 1 and unlock customization as they level. The system is fully unlocked by level 17 so players have plenty of time to experiment with everything before 30.
Packun Flower12 votesI thought the whole point of the new runes was to NOT gate them behind level gates and that's exactly what you have done.
Glory ln Death7 votesNo, the point (one of the points) was to not gate them behind a massive IP grind.
Terchio2 votesNah, level gates were a bigpart of it. Not that either is entirely different from one another, but not having a Keystone until level 21, or a Quintessence until level 10 (which even then was sub-par) was really the worst of the issues that was addressed for newer players. They also dropped the level gate for a few Summoner Spells this past patch, with Runes Reforged.
Also, I've yet to hear anybody say the IP grind is any better. So even if both were goals, the level gate may be the only semi-success, as best I can tell.
Teridax684 votesI feel most of the complexity of the rune system comes more from learning what the runes do, rather than which runes are most appropriate. Even with locked options, new players are still going to have a very hard time understanding why their third attack deals massively more damage, what the progress bar is every time they step into brush, why they killed that slowed enemy so fast, and so on, if they take the Domination page, for example. Beyond that, champions are inevitably going to be balanced around their optimal rune builds, which means that newer players, who won't be able to have those even if they look up an online guide, will also be forced to play from a disadvantage. I don't think the current way the rune system is set up is as new player-friendly as it could be, for these reasons.
Raxistaicho25 votesWell it wouldn't be so bad if the preset runes were actually good.
50000000000000004 votesI think they should just let us pick the keystone at the very least, even if they automatically pick random minor runes.
Wimbledofy3 votesPreset runes also need better names. Something like: mage/support/tank etc. so people get a general idea of what the runepage would do without having to actually read it.
FakeGravity4 votesmaybe not that meta defining, special since there is not an aery preset page maybe something like a name plus what it is suppose to be for?
Precision: for cosistent damage dealers colosus : for the tanks and undying ones aery aid: lets heal and shield
InfinitexMortal2 votesThe preset Runes are horrible though..... Doesn't teach them anything good in fact it leads them to think those rune pages are good when they are not. At least look into the most popular Rune builds and remake the Premade Rune Pages accordingly so that new players are not mislead with bad Rune pages.
Terchio3 votesI get the sentiment, but they have to learn this stuff somehow. You already have a plain English version of all the runes that's actually a bit overkill to anybody above level 10. Give them the tools, but don't shove it down their throat, or you'll lose people before they really invest into the game, especially players swapping from other games like DotA 2 and Smite. Preset pages are coddling enough for basically everybody at this point, they don't need to be mandatory.
Some of the problem is that you think new players expect no adjustment, I suppose. I don't think that anybody is expecting that on a new game. You guys have made Runes just about the hardest thing to mess up already, with basically all keystones coming with a helpful stat chunk based on that keystone, and 3 runes tailored to a similar playstyle. I think you're Diablo-3-ing the game, but regardless, new players should have little problem making their own pages that work, and this mandatory tutorial, when other players in the same games are not necessarily required to be in that tutorial anymore, is a problem in the game that should have been addressed many years ago. It has been addressed with Runes Reforged, but these little snags keep holding on, like not being able to create pages and being required to buy 6300 BE runepages for a 450 BE champion.
The problem is not that new players are getting confused on how to play and quitting. The problem is that new players are still being held back from their gameplay, and grow bored with the disadvantage thrown at them in a team arena game. I'd be ticked if I started with 300 gold while everyone else was at 500. Why? I still get the same endgame benefits and everything, right? 200 gold isn't much wait, right? No, it's a ton of wait when I'm playing a game with several other players who get that advantage, but I don't. That's the problem.
Please, stop choking players out from your game.
Linna Excel2 votesHey Sparkle, can you tell the guys who did the preset rune pages they did a very good job? I was looking over them and in some trees like precision they went with the obviously best path. The only one I didn't like was the inspiration tree.
RiotSparkle9 votesMm, worth noting that the point of the preset pages isn't to be the "best" options necessarily, just to be good general options that work on a wide range of champions interested in the path
Linna Excel2 votesThat's a fair point. I just mentioned precision because it seems like it was a spot on decision, specifically about the choices in the primary line.
Umio2 votesThis. Learning the game comes before learning the pregame, IMO.
All players have a full page of runes from level 1 and unlock customization as they level. The system is fully unlocked by level 17 so players have plenty of time to experiment with everything before 30.
People lv30 dont know how to play the game, this restriction should be removed.
Akrashun3 votesOkay, but the presets are there and newcomers don't have to change them.
This is 100% only about pushing grind time and play hours.
There is no reason to not give more options. People who don't know won't explore different runes and will be fine with the presets. Anyone else, it creates massive upsets in balancing games. Since you can be placed with people a much higher level. For me it completely ruins the beginning of playing LoL.
Jeddy0178 votesYeah, people forget how overwhelming League can be to new players, especially those new to the concept of MOBAs in general.
Alimentateur3 votesleague is at this point, one of the easiest-to-understand moba's. there are plenty out there which have stunning graphic and gameplay and are way better.
why do most trolls come to league? cause they dont need to bother upgrading their pc, just buy a crappy one and get windows xp running to play league. hots requires you to have atleast windows 7 or better(as they locked out every xp/vista user from playing in november)
DatFigtree2 votes[deleted]
Alimentateur1 votessure.
Paragon - Played by FrankieOnPc (the one with the stunning graphics cause they use unreal engine 4) youtube.com/watch?v=r_xz5aUY94Q
Dreadnought - Played by WinterSC using Voice Commands youtube.com/watch?v=sWFwOB2Hz54
Terchio3 votesProblem is, you need to address new players appropriately for the genre you are in. As an example, you may start with learning basic exercises, leg stretches and such, when swapping from Bowling to Soccer. However, catering to those 3 people with no route around those basic concepts will bore people who came from more similar games, which actually require the same endurance to play, like your Football, Basketball, Hockey, etc.
That's not to say that the basic exercise tutorials shouldn't exist. But for crying out loud, there just aren't that many Bowlers trying to play Soccer. Leave some room for players who already know the basics, especially when the help suggested isn't even that helpful to incredibly new players. If you're that new, you'll pick a preset. Nobody that new is going to go off and do his own exercises knowing his inherent disadvantages. However, your MOBA peeps, or even general MMORPG peeps, should not be hit hard enough to be confused at the thought of a Runepage setup. Not with as basic a setup they've been confined to.
I know that there are a couple players who can really use some extra help. My girlfriend was one of those, and I used to semi-coach a few back in the day (gf being one). However, I don't think I've seen anybody that flat-out ignored presets if they were that new to the game. If anything, they sought out such help, because the choices were overwhelming early.
The help is there. Just don't force it on everybody, or you'll lose players much easier. This game really isn't that hard to adjust to, as long as they point to the tutorials. Once those tutorials were in place, even new players on the "noob" channel back in the day were generally knowledgeable of the game by the time they sought help, they were simply looking for community, or nowadays, considered to be looking for boosting. It's all a fine line, but as a general rule, don't tell people how to play unless they ask. Advice is good, but forcing is next to always bad.
Gigglingdeath2 votesProblem is, you need to address new players appropriately for the genre you are in. As an example, you may start with learning basic exercises, leg stretches and such, when swapping from Bowling to Soccer. However, catering to those 3 people with no route around those basic concepts will bore people who came from more similar games, which actually require the same endurance to play, like your Football, Basketball, Hockey, etc.
That's not to say that the basic exercise tutorials shouldn't exist. But for crying out loud, there just aren't that many Bowlers trying to play Soccer. Leave some room for players who already know the basics, especially when the help suggested isn't even that helpful to incredibly new players. If you're that new, you'll pick a preset. Nobody that new is going to go off and do his own exercises knowing his inherent disadvantages. However, your MOBA peeps, or even general MMORPG peeps, should not be hit hard enough to be confused at the thought of a Runepage setup. Not with as basic a setup they've been confined to.
I know that there are a couple players who can really use some extra help. My girlfriend was one of those, and I used to semi-coach a few back in the day (gf being one). However, I don't think I've seen anybody that flat-out ignored presets if they were that new to the game. If anything, they sought out such help, because the choices were overwhelming early.
The help is there. Just don't force it on everybody, or you'll lose players much easier. This game really isn't that hard to adjust to, as long as they point to the tutorials. Once those tutorials were in place, even new players on the "noob" channel back in the day were generally knowledgeable of the game by the time they sought help, they were simply looking for community, or nowadays, considered to be looking for boosting. It's all a fine line, but as a general rule, don't tell people how to play unless they ask. Advice is good, but forcing is next to always bad.
Okay let me say this. When you are first learning the game, a MOBA veteran or not, do you know exactly how each champions stats work? Armour? Magic resist? AP scaling? AD scaling? Which champions can build which paths? Which can build both paths? How exactly to lane in league? When to use e? w? q? r? The point is to give people a little bit of time to figure out what they need to do. It doesn't take that long to get to level 17. It really doesn't. For returning players, it's a struggle to not be able to use your runes when you know what they do, but it's also a way to deter extra smurfs and alternate accounts. For people from a different moba, no matter how similar it is, there are also many differences. Riot just wants you to focus on the big picture rather than the little stuff in the beginning. Learn specific champs and how to build them and THEN focus on which runes may fit your playstyle. Arguably, even people from other mobas might not know which playstyle they prefer in THIS game. So riot is making it so they focus on other things first before they dive into the other stuff. That's why. Yes, people that have played other sports might know how to stretch, but maybe they dont' know the specific exercises they should do before starting a different sport. It's kinda the same thing ya know?
Terchio2 votesKnowing the enemy playstyle is a necessary evil. No way around it, because it's been fine-tuned for years. However, knowing how your champion interacts with Summon Aery, as an example, is not hard to figure out after one game, if you even need that game. They are very basic already, and don't need a 3-week tutorial to cover before you can even consider trying that OP Annie build you just saw last game, because you had the misfortune of facing one who passed the tutorial.
Even excluding all of that, there is little to no reason to hold back players who do not seek the help. As a universal example, you teach players in Chess how to do things, correct movement, en passant, how to castle, etc. However, that doesn't make it helpful to restrict a player from castling when the opponent gets to. If you want to intertwine players of different skill levels, they're going to need the same skills, or else you're setting up the new player for a bad experience, especially when they can't adjust to mimic that playstyle the following game.
Again, advice is good. Presets are good. Forcing is bad. When I am playing League of Legends, I expect to be playing the full game, just like everyone else. If I'm playing League of Legends Junior in a full-on LoL match, I'm probably going to get frustrated simply because I can't do the fun things I just saw some guy do. If I'm a relatively adjusted player due to playing a similar game (DotA 2, HoN, Smite), I'm gonna drop that game in heartbeat. That's just not fun for anybody.
Again, I used to coach these peeps. They were never that helpless to learn the game back in the day, and this was before the better tutorial came out. However, that could be for a variety of reasons. Many could be because even the movement tutorial was too hard/unfun for them. However, I promise you that forcing preset pages, as opposed to suggesting them, was not going to bring those folks back. They used those presets to a fault already, at least those that were willing to learn. The rest were frustrated with the appearance of a prescribed tutorial, and quit ahead of time.
There is literally no benefit to having a forced 10-level tutorial. Players that want to shove a playstyle can't experiment. Players who want to stay the course end up stomped by those that don't, and then can't adapt to it. It is backwards of Riot's main (and viable) philosophy, learn by playing. If you can't play that way, how do they expect you to learn about dealing with it? Keep in mind, there are 10 of 15 keystones that are unobtainable until level 10. That's a lot of coddling, and ultimately, no benefit.
Gigglingdeath1 votesKnowing the enemy playstyle is a necessary evil. No way around it, because it's been fine-tuned for years. However, knowing how your champion interacts with Summon Aery, as an example, is not hard to figure out after one game, if you even need that game. They are very basic already, and don't need a 3-week tutorial to cover before you can even consider trying that OP Annie build you just saw last game, because you had the misfortune of facing one who passed the tutorial.
Even excluding all of that, there is little to no reason to hold back players who do not seek the help. As a universal example, you teach players in Chess how to do things, correct movement, en passant, how to castle, etc. However, that doesn't make it helpful to restrict a player from castling when the opponent gets to. If you want to intertwine players of different skill levels, they're going to need the same skills, or else you're setting up the new player for a bad experience, especially when they can't adjust to mimic that playstyle the following game.
Again, advice is good. Presets are good. Forcing is bad. When I am playing League of Legends, I expect to be playing the full game, just like everyone else. If I'm playing League of Legends Junior in a full-on LoL match, I'm probably going to get frustrated simply because I can't do the fun things I just saw some guy do. If I'm a relatively adjusted player due to playing a similar game (DotA 2, HoN, Smite), I'm gonna drop that game in heartbeat. That's just not fun for anybody.
Again, I used to coach these peeps. They were never that helpless to learn the game back in the day, and this was before the better tutorial came out. However, that could be for a variety of reasons. Many could be because even the movement tutorial was too hard/unfun for them. However, I promise you that forcing preset pages, as opposed to suggesting them, was not going to bring those folks back. They used those presets to a fault already, at least those that were willing to learn. The rest were frustrated with the appearance of a prescribed tutorial, and quit ahead of time.
There is literally no benefit to having a forced 10-level tutorial. Players that want to shove a playstyle can't experiment. Players who want to stay the course end up stomped by those that don't, and then can't adapt to it. It is backwards of Riot's main (and viable) philosophy, learn by playing. If you can't play that way, how do they expect you to learn about dealing with it? Keep in mind, there are 10 of 15 keystones that are unobtainable until level 10. That's a lot of coddling, and ultimately, no benefit.
But this is how it's been for years. Except for before you didn't even get to have runes. You literally had... 7 runes at level 7 you could use, that was IF you decided to purchase them (before they made everyone 1ip for tier 2 runes). This time, they gave you the option to use full runepages, but won't let you edit them at first. I fail to see how much different it is. The first 30 levels are to show you how to play the game and get you prepared for level 30 (which is where the game really "starts" imo). There are several games where you get a full first few level tutorial. WoW, GW2, other games like that all have basically the same starting sequence of 'teach you how to do this' and then they give you stuff to explore on your own. I'm confused as to why you think league should be different? Riot could implement a system where if you were already level 30 and were creating a smurf you could opt in to a "veteran" status where it skips the tutorial, but then it doesn't really make the game fair to everyone, and then also people will abuse this and then never learn the game properly (or use it to harass new members). I mean, riot is trying to help NEW people, not necessarily hinder their progress, but it's like trying to teach a white belt a black belt move. You know? And you can argue that people don't WANT the help, but that's just how this game progresses it's starting players. I'd be pissed if I was trying to learn this game and got ZERO help.
Terchio2 votesOf course it sucked before. That doesn't mean it's peachy now. They've been one of the worst game introductions in big games because they created these "milestones" in the name of learning the game, and kept scaring off their playerbase, which was okay with a fresh game. Now, 7 years in, they finally get rid of their largest barrier, and they go and put some new ones up for the hell of it.
There is literally no benefit to forcing presets. Having presets is good, forcing them is bad. It's tolerable for a few tutorial games, but not 10 levels. New players get the benefit from having the presets, but the veteran gamers play for accolades, not access to a repetitive game. And overall, that's likely the majority of incoming players in the first place.
Again, presets good. Forcing bad. Forcing presets helps nobody, old or new. Nobody is advocating zero help. Nobody is taking away the tutorials, or recommended item sets, or even preset runes. It's all about allowing game access if the player wants to actually use runes to a realistic degree. If this were an MMORPG, maybe let the player gain some power over time, let them come into their own. However, not in a game entirely based on PVP. You force a player to play with their hands tied behind their back, they'll go somewhere else. That has been their problem for a few seasons now, and Riot can't seem to work their way past it, despite this update being tailored toward it.
Is Riot doing better with new players? Probably. I personally think that they've devolved the game so badly that the newer player experience is not enhanced. However, no matter the case, that doesn't make this particular issue any more sparkly. Give players presets, but don't 100% force it on them. That's where there is a problem.
quasistellar7 votesBelieve it or not, Rito actually wants to attract new players and not just cater to Smurfs :/
Yordle Xayah2 votesThe reason is because new players literally have no idea what's going on 90% of the time
Hey I always knew what I was doing when I started... I was Top Miss Fortune with Clarity to use Make It Rain on waves all the time. Expert gameplay.
Need Gold 4 Tent1 votesThe reason is because new players literally have no idea what's going on 90% of the time. Riot wants them to focus on their gameplay rather than the additional things like runes and summoner spells. That's why they wait so long, because by level 17 they think "well maybe they can handle it". Otherwise, it's too overwhelming. This might not have been a problem in the beginning of league when many less champions were present, but now... I mean there's a lot to take in and learn.
There's always the option of "having an option" to do it. When you pick Ashe for example, they should give you the PTA recommended page. But you should also be able to open another rune page to just look around and run Aftershock/Domination if you wanted.
Naalith13 votesBro, I started playing League in season 1 and I must admit the tutorial and feedback systems were absolute trash cans at the time, but that being said, I literally had no idea what was happening until I was maybe level 25 or so, and that was BEFORE they reduced the XP to 30 several times. Yes, the tutorials are (slightly) better these days and bot modes are actually helpful to newcomers, but if I was level 25 playing Tryndamere/Katarina duo mid lane and Janna/Old Galio duo top lane with my buddy at level 25 just imagine with a level 11 would be doing. The premade pages aren't even that bad (besides the unsealed spellbook one) for new players to use, it's not like anyone level 11 who isn't a smurf or MOBA expert from another game would want to maximize their potential at that level via runes anyways.
Automated Riven2 votesROFL. I remember thinking people who jungled were fucking stupid.
Shuyin17812 votes1-7 You can't even look at the pre-set runes and are all chosen for you 8-10 you get to select the pre-set runes 11+12 you can only edit Keystones 13+14 you can edit your primary tree's runes 15+16 you can edit your secondary tree 17+ you can use the Inspiration tree
Honestly I find this so stupid that things are restricted like this for so long. I feel like all of this should be -3 levels So at 5 let players pick their pre-sets, 8 pick Keystones, 10 pick primary tree runes, 12 2nd tree stuff, 14 Inspiration While this still sucks it would at least feel better than waiting until 17.
ModWulf Helhammer9 votesBecause actual level 11s have no clue what’s going on with all that stuff.
Doctor Fillgood3 votes[{quoted}](name=The Wolf King,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QXUJdYEF,comment-id=0002,timestamp=2017-11-13T05:59:59.839+0000)
Because actual level 11s have no clue what’s going on with all that stuff.
You speak like 95% of level 11s aren't smurfs...
2Behold7 votesI feel like this is a smurf problem, new players won't really understand the new system plus the rest of the game until well after level 11.
GettemClone6 votesyou just want to complain dont you ?
" obviously bars new players from creating runes that are more viable for their current favorite champ "
new players wont even know whats going on let alone creating runes that is good for their " favorite champ "
Slythion4 votesApparently I'm not allowed to complain about something I disagree with, ok. I don't just want to complain as you rudely put though
Cubical3 votesIt took me like 30 games to fully feel comfortable with even using hotkeys. way longer for developing game sense and csing. the only thing this is hurting is smurfs
Automated Riven2 votesIt took me till damn near level 30 before I finally stopped trying to drop and drop select my character. (age of empires ftw) building rune pages after that was something that it took quite a bit longer to figure out. Plus learning 130 (only like 40 when I started) champion abilities and such is hard enough for new players. I have a friend who started a few months ago who still doesn't know what a few fringe champions do because he hasn't seen them.
skippyjeff3 votesu messed it up again riot u had a chance to fix the loooong looong years complaint of locking masteries behind lvls.what if i wanna actualy use a good page while lvling a new account have to wait till fking lvl 17? you think riot would learn from past mistakes. leave the presets but still let people make their own pages if they choose to wich lets be honest only people who knw what they are doing will so u help noobs and keep veterans happy. why do u constantly shaft the veteran players. and id like to know what % of low lvl accounts are actualy new players to people making smurfs i think balanceing or w.e u wanna call it the rune system twards noobs is a waste, i bet most low lvls are smurfs.
Elyot2 votesWouldn't it be better to have some kind of option you can click if you want to take presets or make your own.
subcero1232 votesactually though, why? I thought the rune update was to make runes available for anyone and everyone, but a restriction like that obviously bars new players from creating runes that are more viable for their current favorite champ.
It doesn't make much sense to me
Its not fare that i can't choose my runes whats that
Hørsegrenades2 votesThey should still give the option to customize your rune page at any level, yes you can still have pre-set pages for the noobs. But when I'm lvl 13 playing against people who CAN customize their rune page, it's just not fair.
Pacosius1 votesSo people who lost their account or are leveling a new one in a new region play against people who have ideal runes setup and get frustrated.And what about the newbie players who play with friends and end up playign against proper runed people, or playing solo even vs people who got everything unlcoked which happens all the time because matchmaking doesnt create an even match.Stop with the moronic restrictions on runes,spells and game modes.If you find the game overwhelming after that tutorial then i feel sorry for you.It's easy to get into, a chimpanzee could probably get the hang of it after a few games
Tritan1 votesDunno, I started to play two weeks ago. I'm level 19 now. I can create exactly 2!!!! self-made runes, if I don't want to delete the presets. And I don't want to do that, because I use them for reference. So, what I don't get is WHY 7 runes make up 2 pages? That's very weird and I can't find any answers.
WIll I get more possibilities as I level at any point or that's it and a new player like myself already has to pay?
Also, the intro guide is still NOT HELPFULL!!! All hints are using abbreviations that I have to google all the time. There is no intro where to find which menu, how to access pings, what are the options for communication, etc. I had to literally google everything. And given that you can't rely on material from the other seasons/updates etc., that's SUPER newbie-unfriendly. If I weren't motivated to try the game by the King's Avatar novel, I'd be giving up right there.
Inty Winky1 votesIDK how hard it can be, but to make a system that gets data of what runes are used the moste for every individual champ, and make a option for players to use the "best" runes when locking in a champ. should be the best reason. And ey its Riot were talking about, great company so how hard can it be for u guys. :) <3
Carfreezeus1 votesactually though, why? I thought the rune update was to make runes available for anyone and everyone, but a restriction like that obviously bars new players from creating runes that are more viable for their current favorite champ.
It doesn't make much sense to me
SHIT ok
shadownite901 votesThese comments are right to an extent, but it would be nice to have options, or else have riot make pages for champions individually instead, if they are forced on us. I'm trying to play syndra, an especially mana hungry mage who doesn't gain much from a lot of mana items, and even with a full rune page her mana sustain sucks. I've played on other people's accounts, i know this. without one, i have to get a full item before i can stay in lane for more than 3 waves, its incredibly unrealistic. like, who actually uses gold tree on syndra? maybe this is one champion, but i find it hard to believe that I am the only one suffering from the fact that forced rune pages make some champions almost unplayable, and it hurts even more that I don't have a good opportunity to fix it until level 15, as it is the secondary page that I need to change(I want to change one thing on the primary too, but it's a preference thing). In my opinion, if a company wants to force you to play with a certain piece of content, but they choose how it works, then they should put some effort into making it work right so that it doesn't hinder the player experience instead