Just wanted to thank Riot for implementing Promo Helper at lower Elos. Its always demoralizing losing a promotion or getting demoted out of a division, but with promo helper the sting is not so bad. From a silver lifer, I feel this will make grinding a little more fun and a little less stressful this coming season.
Some people see it as a handicap, but that is not the case.
Thanks again!
The Bíg Ticket2 votesCan I get this in Platinum too?
Dukues1 votesDon't see why not, although I am not Riot.
AyRe CoNteMpT1 votesit actually doesnt change anything except that all the noobs will jam up one or so divisions higher. like, this just decreases the value of the lower divisions but it doesnt actually help anything. you might get out of silver and into gold now, but only because the system lets you do it and not because you actually are "gold skill" now. gold is simply worth less than last season and so on.
its a system to simulate success for noob, nothing else.
Dukues1 votes[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RHy8rPZh,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-12-15T20:51:23.738+0000)
it actually doesnt change anything except that all the noobs will jam up one or so divisions higher. like, this just decreases the value of the lower divisions but it doesnt actually help anything. you might get out of silver and into gold now, but only because the system lets you do it and not because you actually are "gold skill" now. gold is simply worth less than last season and so on.
its a system to simulate success for noob, nothing else.
Just because you wish you had it in diamond, doesn't mean its a bad system. It really is going to have no overall affect on the game at all. It just makes being demoted less annoying or retrying a promotion a little less annoying.
I have not benefited from it at all yet, but the idea makes it a little more enjoyable to try and rank up. In the end you have to be able to play at the elo you are trying to reach or you wont... and you can still get demoted just as easily as before. Nothing lost, and a small bit of enjoyment gained. I would say its a win.
AyRe CoNteMpT1 voteslets take you as an example and just theorize: you are silver 3 and you are simply not good enough to get into silver 1. now you tgry and try but you keep bouncing between 100lp silver 3 and 0 lp silver 2. this is just the level you are at. it doesnt mean you always drop and climb and its frustrating but it simply means you are between the two divisions. its like you always stay around 50lp in any division. thats just where you belong.
now that system gives you free wins (thats really all it does) and it makes you climb more than you actually deserve. this means, all noobs will simply climb a few divisions more as they would now and they will jam up at the division the system ends. i dont know how far it goes but i think like gold 5 or so? or gold 1 even? i forgot, but this division will just be jammed up more and more over the course of time because climbing is easier while dropping is still the same. this is simply a ratio. same as if you have 53% winrate, you WILL climb eventually. even tho it might take 100 or so games, you are statistically climbing even if you have a 5-10 game loss streak. this is part of your climbing process.
look right now i have almost only wins because i started to understand some things about the game that made me grow at a rapid pace. now i crush my divison and climb easy. this will probably stop somewhere around d2 or d1 or whenever i reach the elo i belong in right now with my current soloQ prowess.
i mean, this weird system doesnt change anyhting for me. im far above whereever it will jam but i simply think its a very bad approach and its bad for the people who are ACTUALLY gold 1 (or whatever elo) skill and now get more noobs into their division and that simply sucks.
and yeah lol, im so sad that i dont have this "get into challenger for free"-system. its like every noob thinks "if i was challenger, i could keep up with them and im only stuck here cuz elohell" so why cant we all be challenger? everyone would be happy.
DeathBurst1 votesMaybe you forget that after 1 defeat at 0LP, you needed 4 wins before, 3 wins now, to come back at exactly 0LP.
It's probably not the case in practice, but on paper, it's possible to have a 60% winrate and still oscillate around 0LP, even in the new system with a free-win.
Randomonium1 votesI don't think the system will have as drastic an effect as you say it will but it will have a huge effect on how often people want to play ranked.
For example, the person you hypothetically mentioned in your post will not get to gold under the new system. Instead of bouncing between Silver 3 and Silver 2 doing an endless promo loop (which is really frustrating), he will instead just bounce between 0-50 LP in Silver 2. Basically what it will do is it will shift players from the ends of a division (0 or 100 LP) more to the middle of a division (50 LP.) I know this doesn't sound much better but I can guarantee you most people would prefer to play a random game a 50 LP then have to play a promo series or play a game at 0 LP where they could get demoted (since the pressure feels a lot less.)
The only way a person can rise to Gold under the new system when they wouldn't be able to under the old system is if they consistently have a 51-55% win rate and they play hundreds of games. And to be honest, if you consistently have a >50% win rate you should climb. You shouldn't have to have a 60-70% win rate just to go up a single division.
AyRe CoNteMpT1 votesif you have 51% winrate, you will climb perfectly fine without promo helper after many many games. right now with this system giving you free wins, you will climb even with 50 or 49% winrate which means that people will simply go to higher divisions than they deserve. it will simply LOWER THE VALUE of higher divisions up until gold X.
they coulda just introduced 3 more divisions between gold and plat and it woulda been the same. like you say it pushes the people from promo to 50 lp but at the same time it pushes the 50 lp people to the promos of the next higher division but since they nw have promo helper, they will win those promos eventually and climb to the next higher division and the cycle will repeat. it simply increases winrate artificially. how is it so hard to understand that not everybody gets it? its probably that people stuck in low elo are just not smart stratgegically so they dont even get this simple concept xD
Randomonium1 votesWith a 51% win rate you pretty much will never advance in a division because to win promos you need to have a 75% win rate for normal promos (1 win to get into promos plus 2 out of 3 in promos) or a 66% win rate to go up a division (1 win to get into promos plus 3 out of 5 in promos.)
The changes to the system will do absolutely nothing to help people climb within a division, they simply lower the win rate required to succeed at a promotional series to something more manageable so someone with a 51% win rate doesn't have to do 10+ promos to advance.
Your logic is flawed that these are "free wins" because promo helper doesn't give you any LP. Like I've said earlier, all this does is decrease the number of promos you have to play in order to advance and softens getting demoted right after you get promoted because of a couple bad games (one troll/afk shouldn't be able to negate all your hard work of winning a promo.) It doesn't help you at all to climb from 0 LP to 100 LP within your new division.
Overall, this system will allow people who are below the rank that they should be in the ability to rise to the rank they should be in fewer games and will reduce the power that trolls/afks have in promo games. However, this new system will be of no use to people who are at the right rank because it won't help them rise within a given division (i.e. going from 0 LP to 100 LP.)
AyRe CoNteMpT1 votesoh my god. you really make me lose my faith in humanity...
Dukues1 votes[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RHy8rPZh,comment-id=0001000000000001000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-17T15:42:50.026+0000)
oh my god. you really make me lose my faith in humanity...
But... you are doing that to us lol. As the rest of us have said, it literally has hardly any effect on how high players will climb. All it does is relieves stress a little. Promos will still be failed, people still will be demoted, people will still not rise unless they get better. You act like.... well shit giving players a free win to somewhere they already have been means all silver 3 elo players will now be gold 5.... Lol how in the fuck does that make any sense? Will there be more people in silver 2? Perhaps. I honestly bet the swing in division % for gold, silver, bronze hardly changes over the next year. Sadly I did not look where they were at before this change, but I will look now and can keep a record to take a look at a few months from now. Granted, with the season 6 soft reset will have to wait until closer to the end of the season to really look.
AyRe CoNteMpT1 votesyou DO know what the word "rate" means, right? i accept your bet.
man sometimes i must wonder if school attendance is still compulsory or if you still have math in school. like, do you REALLY REALLY argue that promo helper gives you a free win? do you REALLY not accept this fact?
Dukues1 votesLol why so mad bro. All your comments so angry. Of course I am not arguing promo helper gives you a free win....... it literally tells you it does. All I have been saying is just because you get a free win does not mean people are going to climb 2-3 divisions higher like your original comment..... Not sure what your referencing in your rate part of the comment is I am unsure what comment you are referring to and do not really care.
End of the day... all promo helper does is help you stay at your actual mmr. It does literally nothing else. There will probably be more players in Gold 5 now, just because it takes a lot more to drop out of a tier than divisions. But gold 5 does not mean much anyways, besides end of season rewards.
I am not in gold, but I play 3 or more gold players every game and have won 70-80% of my last 10-15 non promo games vs them. However, I am 1-8 in gold promos. Does this mean I am not Gold? I guess. Does this mean I can't shit stomp a bunch of gold players most of the time? No.
The division promo helper literally mean nothing as it is super easy to get demoted, and still takes a lot to get promoted. Yes, more players will be in Gold 5 which they should probably look into. But I mean... whose better. Someone who gets into Gold 5 promos 3,4,10 times but never wins the promo? Or someone who get carried in their first promo and wins it and then only stays high enough to not drop out of gold since it is really hard to drop out of? Both seem about the same to me, just one gets more rewards than the other.
AyRe CoNteMpT1 votesyeah, probably you are right. im challenger skill but no one acknowledges it. i feel ya ; )
Dukues1 votes[{quoted}](name=AyRe CoNteMpT,realm=EUW,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=RHy8rPZh,comment-id=00010000000000010000000000000000000000000000,timestamp=2015-12-21T22:10:11.405+0000)
yeah, probably you are right. im challenger skill but no one acknowledges it. i feel ya ; )
I bought a shirt that says Fuck silver I am gold!. Going to see if wearing it helps me climb. You could always buy/make one that says Fuck Diamond I am master or challenger.
I will let you know how it goes. I am assume league clothes have to increase skills just like skins....
Randomonium1 votesYou know I was thinking the same thing. Between your logical fallacies and lack of understand of basic statistics I'm suprised you can function in the real world at all. Good thing you have a video game forum to insult people on!
AyRe CoNteMpT1 votesseriously man? okay lets say i take you seriously and assume you are not mentally disatvantaged:
"With a 51% win rate you pretty much will never advance in a division because to win promos you need to have a 75% win rate for normal promos (1 win to get into promos plus 2 out of 3 in promos) or a 66% win rate to go up a division (1 win to get into promos plus 3 out of 5 in promos.)"
this is what you said right. its like so stupid and bad i dont even know how to properly reply to that. its like you are assuming that a 51% winrate means you win one game and then lose one game. it doesnt mean anything except that overall you win 51% of your games. you can still have 20 game win/lossstreaks and climb/drop easily. i mean look at your account, you have 48% winrate overall but still 78% winrate over the last 9 games and you probably climbed/got boosted to silver 5 with that.
like oh my god how can you even say something like "to win promso you need a 75% winrate" xD okay lets get to the next part:
"The changes to the system will do absolutely nothing to help people climb within a division, they simply lower the win rate required to succeed at a promotional series to something more manageable so someone with a 51% win rate doesn't have to do 10+ promos to advance."
ofcourse it doesnt give free LP within a division but since a player who is 50 lp in silver 5 doesnt ALWAYS have 50lp in silver 5 but only has that ON AVERAGE also gets into promos sometimes and also falls to 0 lp sometimes, he statistically gets a free win every so many games. this has less effect on some people more on others but it DOES effectively give free wins and thus changes peoples winrates and their effective elo.
"Your logic is flawed that these are "free wins" because promo helper doesn't give you any LP. Like I've said earlier, all this does is decrease the number of promos you have to play in order to advance and softens getting demoted right after you get promoted because of a couple bad games (one troll/afk shouldn't be able to negate all your hard work of winning a promo.) It doesn't help you at all to climb from 0 LP to 100 LP within your new division."
getting demoted because of trolls right after winning promos happens as often as you get promoted because the enemy team had trolls and sucked. you statistically win and lose the same amount of games for free and if you keep dropping, that is simply because you dont belong where you are. if someone hangs between promos and demotions, he is simply at the verge of these two divisions, skill wise. hes better than bronze 1 but not quite silver 5 yet so he climbs/drops but now he will climb more easily and thus get an "elo boost" into a division he doesnt deserve yet. statistically, he will climb/drop sometimes and he will get free wins sometimes and this will influence his overall elo because mathematical facts.
"Overall, this system will allow people who are below the rank that they should be in the ability to rise to the rank they should be in fewer games and will reduce the power that trolls/afks have in promo games. However, this new system will be of no use to people who are at the right rank because it won't help them rise within a given division (i.e. going from 0 LP to 100 LP.)"
nobody is below the rank they deserve. everyone is exactly where he has to be with maybe one division variance so if you are silver 5, you might aswell be silver 4 skill and you will get there with enough games automatically because thats the level you play on. trolls/afks dont have any influence on promos anyways because as i said, statistically you win the same amount of games from them as you lose and "promos" are no special kind of game, they are an illusion. you coulda just lost 3 games because of trolls and it woulda ended in the same way but noobs think "OH NO MY PROMOS OMG" because they dont understand the system. they think "omg i need 75% winrate to climb omg" but they dont realize that sometimes they are at 0 LP and they dont drop after losing a game or they are at 2 lp and only drop to 0 instead of -20. they dont realize that this system equalizes itself and there is absolutely no luck involved in where you are in the ranks.
you know, thats why its so hard to talk to noobs about anything. they just dont understand. its like discussing quantum physics with a third grader.
Randomonium1 votesthis is what you said right. its like so stupid and bad i dont even know how to properly reply to that. its like you are assuming that a 51% winrate means you win one game and then lose one game. it doesnt mean anything except that overall you win 51% of your games. you can still have 20 game win/lossstreaks and climb/drop easily. i mean look at your account, you have 48% winrate overall but still 78% winrate over the last 9 games and you probably climbed/got boosted to silver 5 with that.
You really don't understand basic statistics do you? If you have a 51% win rate then the chance that you will randomly go on a win streak for you promos (assuming everything else is equal) is 26%. So even if you have a "positive" win rate your given chance at winning a promo series is about 1 in 4. That's why people get frustrated with the current system. If you actually do the math you need to average a 67% win rate to have a 50% chance in you promos, which essentially is a coin flip scenario. That's absurd. If I have a 67% win rate the chance of me rising in rank shouldn't be as bad as a coin flip.
Actually my win rate when I started playing ranked was around 38% until I stopped playing ranked and realized what I needed to improve on. I spent about 6 months just working on my mechanics and then in the last 2 months of the season climbed out of bronze with ~70% win rate over ~40 games. Even with that high of a win rate climbing went very slowly and I barely made it to Silver 5 before the season ended.
ofcourse it doesnt give free LP within a division but since a player who is 50 lp in silver 5 doesnt ALWAYS have 50lp in silver 5 but only has that ON AVERAGE also gets into promos sometimes and also falls to 0 lp sometimes, he statistically gets a free win every so many games. this has less effect on some people more on others but it DOES effectively give free wins and thus changes peoples winrates and their effective elo.
I could understand your argument if promo helper always helped you but it only kicks in to help you get where you've previously been. Yes huge win streaks and loss streaks do happen and this new system kind of even things out. If you go on a huge win streak promo helper doesn't help you because you've never gotten that high before and the system will naturally balance you against better opponents. if you go on a huge loss streak promo helper helps you stabilize since if you drop a division it becomes very difficult to get promoted back to the division you were just in (see statistics above.)
getting demoted because of trolls right after winning promos happens as often as you get promoted because the enemy team had trolls and sucked. you statistically win and lose the same amount of games for free and if you keep dropping, that is simply because you dont belong where you are. if someone hangs between promos and demotions, he is simply at the verge of these two divisions, skill wise. hes better than bronze 1 but not quite silver 5 yet so he climbs/drops but now he will climb more easily and thus get an "elo boost" into a division he doesnt deserve yet. statistically, he will climb/drop sometimes and he will get free wins sometimes and this will influence his overall elo because mathematical facts.
This would be true if it was equally as hard to get demoted as it is to get promoted but it isn't. Like I've previously discussed, if you go get to 100 LP you then have to go on a huge win streak to get promoted. Conversely however, if you're at 0 LP it only takes one loss to get demoted.
nobody is below the rank they deserve. everyone is exactly where he has to be with maybe one division variance so if you are silver 5, you might aswell be silver 4 skill and you will get there with enough games automatically because thats the level you play on. trolls/afks dont have any influence on promos anyways because as i said, statistically you win the same amount of games from them as you lose and "promos" are no special kind of game, they are an illusion. you coulda just lost 3 games because of trolls and it woulda ended in the same way but noobs think "OH NO MY PROMOS OMG" because they dont understand the system. they think "omg i need 75% winrate to climb omg" but they dont realize that sometimes they are at 0 LP and they dont drop after losing a game or they are at 2 lp and only drop to 0 instead of -20. they dont realize that this system equalizes itself and there is absolutely no luck involved in where you are in the ranks.
This just shows your ignorance on the topic. There are countless streams of Diamond players on smurf accounts who struggle to get back to Diamond on their smurfs. If your argument was true then those people would have no problem getting back to Diamond. The whole point I have been trying to make is that statistically it is easier to drop a division than get promoted. This new system doesn't balance the scales completely but it at least makes things a little more fair.
If we use our previous example with the guy who has on average a 51% win rate, he now has a 39% chance to win his promos if he has the help of promo helper (up from 26% under the old system.) The new system makes it so that if you have a 60% win rate (down from 67%) that you have about a 50% chance to succeed on your promos with the help of promo helper (which only kicks in after you've failed your promos at least once.) That seems pretty fair to me. If you have a 60% win rate you should climb in ranking pretty fast right? You shouldn't have to have absurd win rates just to have a decent chance to rise in ranked and you shouldn't have to grind promos over and over because the odds are stacked against you.
you know, thats why its so hard to talk to noobs about anything. they just dont understand. its like discussing quantum physics with a third grader.
If you'd like to discuss quantum physics I'd be happy to. I've been working on nuclear reactors for about 6 years now and I find the topic pretty fascinating. However, i think that our first topic should be statistics because you seem to have a lot of trouble even understanding that topic. I highly encourage you to actually do the math and see how wrong and backwards you actually are.
AyRe CoNteMpT1 voteswinstreaks and loss streaks equalize themselves and basically the only point you made here that would justify promo helper is that getting promoted is harder than getting demoted because it only takes one loss from 0 lp to be demoted. well, THAT IS NOT TRUE because it depends on your mmr/elo compared to the rest of your division. if your mmr is still higher than the average of your division, you will not get demoted even at 0 lp but i guess that never happened to you. i have been at 0 lp sometimes and didnt get demoted for 3-4 losses in a row.
all this promos and stuff is just a charade. it changes nothing about the fact that if you have a higher winrate, you will climb and you will gain elo and mmr. currently the system is, even though retarded, fair. 50% winrate will result in your staying where you are and 51% winrate will result in you climbing even tho it can take many a hundred games. the higher your winrate, the more likely you will go on winstreaks to get through your promos.
if you measure your progress solely on "did i win my promos or not" then its obvious that you didnt understand this system and you didnt understand statistics either.
oh and btw, just because someone is diamond doesnt mean he can carry himself to diamond in just a few games. it means he will statistically get to diamond again if he is at that skill level but it may take him many many games. some players have a playstyle more fit to carrying low elo games and some have a playstyle less fit to do that. these players will have extremely different amounts of games it takes them to boost a smurf into their "real" elo, even though they both are equally effective at their true elo which is, say, diamond 4. both of them have real diamond 4 skill but one of them reaches this elo faster than another.
for example, i have like 80% winrate when leveling a smurf (im d3) and a friend of mine has like 95% winrate while he is d3 too. overall we perform very evenly in our main elo.
btw, about this "the odds are stacked against you": its very natural for the odds being stacked against you in A SINGLE TRY with only 51% winrate but the odds favor you highly on the long run because even tho you only have 26% chance in a single try, you have very high chances in multiple tries and if your skill increases, your winrate will too and your odds will too, naturally. this leads back to my original point which is: everyone will eventually climb to where he belongs and promo helper devalues the divisions it helps in by giving free wins. this will not satisfy players more, it will simply get them frustrated a bit later in the ladder.
after all you have been saying, give me a good argument for promo helper not being active in all elos.
Randomonium1 votesBut why have a system that stacks the deck against you like the old promo system does? Your argument is really flawed because you are essentially saying that if someone plays a ridiculous number of games eventually they will get to the right ranking. Not everyone has the time to spend hundred of games in ranked just to get where they "belong." This isn't WoW, someone should have to grind games to get to a level where they are matched against opponents that gives them a 50% win rate.
All promo helper does is reduce the number of games it takes someone to reach that equilibrium point. It doesn't help you if you don't have a positive win rate. In essence, it is a much more efficient and fair system.
Not being demoted at 0 LP because your MMR is super high is the exception, not the rule. I've had it happen to me before but only when I was on a ridiculous win streak, got promoted, and then had a couple bad games. Most people who lose a game at 0 LP get demoted.
My argument is that the promo helper is a much fairer system that guarantees if you have a positive win rate you will rise in ranked. I feel like we are running in circles a bit with this thread so I made another that explains why promo helper is a good thing in a different, and hopefully more clear, way. Feel free to comment in that thread if you want: http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/gameplay-balance/JNUwi16A-why-promo-helper-is-a-good-thing
The question of whether promo helper should be active in all elos is a completely different topic. I would argue at low elos the ranked system should be as fair as possible. However, at higher rankings higher players may not feel the same way. Higher ranked players may desire an unfair or otherwise challenging ranked system because they feel it breeds stiffer competition. I can understand both sides of that argument but I tend to side that rankings should always be on a level playing field (i.e. it should be as easy to get demoted as promoted.) That said, for lower elos I can't see any reason not to implement promo helper since it is a more balanced and efficient system.
AyRe CoNteMpT1 voteseither the system right now is flawed and promotions/demotions are not equally fair, then the promo helper is good. OR the system is fair considering a high amount of games and the promo helper breaks it by giving free wins.
if its fair, then there is no need to give noobs help because its allready fair. if its unfair, there is no reason to not give it to all elos because well, its fucking fair and everybody wants to climb. losing promos 10 times in a row doesnt get less frustrating with higher elo. if promo helper is a good thing, give it to everyone. so this is essentially the same topic.
all these calculations leave out the fact that if you have low LP (like 2 or so) you dont get demoted from a loss too, so this effectively gives you a buffer every time. lets say you win a game from 0 lp and you get 18 lp and now you lose and lose 17 and lose again, you get a free loss-buffer with your remaining 1 lp. this happens all the time and it prevents AT LEAST as many demotes as the stupid promotion system prevents promotes. even tho it might be a frustrating system, this mechanic equalizes it and makes it fair. frustrating doesnt mean unfair.
the old elo system was much better than the system we have right now, promo helper or not.
but anyways, if its flat out a good thing which doesnt bias the elos, there is no reason to not give it to all elos and if its a bad thing that biases the elos even slightly, dont give it to anyone. to me its very clear, it biases the elos slightly and thus is only given to noobs where it doesnt matter anyways.
Randomonium1 votesYeah, I think promo helper should be available at all elos because it clearly is a more efficient and fair system. The math clearly proves it. I have a feeling Riot wants to test it out in lower elos just to make sure it works as intended before adding it to high elo.
You bring up all the times you wind up with 1 or 2 LP. Those get cancelled out by the times you have 98 or 99 LP.
I don't know what your background is but another way to look at it is an oscillating system (expressed by differential equations in mathematics.) The best way I can explain it is that the old system was overdamped. Yes people will eventually reach close to the level that they should reach but it takes a long, long, long time with lots of games.
The new system reduces the damping effect on ranked allowing people to climb quicker if they have high win rates. Could this result in some people who get promoted that shouldn't? Perhaps. Overshoot is a common problem in complex systems like this. Those players are outliers that the system will bring into check. However, the real benefit is that players will get to the rating they should be at a much faster rate which will allow for better matchmaking, more even teams, and hopefully more happy players.
AyRe CoNteMpT1 votesall right, i start to understand your point better i guess. well i must really say i believe that the current system is pretty fair (even tho shitty and frustrating!) since from my very own experience it feels like i get a lot of demotions prevented even from being at 0 lp and even tho i often feel cheated by the system too, i know its just a feeling and truth is, i am where i belong and as im getting better, i can see how i climb and it feels very good.
even tho i MIGHT have the skill of a higher division than i am in (unlikely, at least for soloQ skill), having a system where its very hard to climb in makes divisions more valuable.
MAYBE this promo helper (if it was in all divisions) would be really cool and make matchmaking more fun for everybody but i wonder if that is actually the right approach. i feel like higher divisions are allready very devalued and the skill required to reach diamond is a joke. "everyone" can be diamond it seems. i would like it if the climb would be more fair but also much harder at the same time so that you can only climb if you really fucking own.
but i dont know its a shitty system anyways^^
DeathBurst1 votesWell, it means that after 1 lose that got you demoted, you need 3 wins instead of 4 to get back to the exact same point. It's a nice touch, but when you need 3 win to compensate 1 lose, I think something is off... If it happened just once in a while, ok, why not. But for me, I have gone in and out of Silver4 9 or 10 times, I stopped counting precisely. And I had 6 different promo series to Silver3, of which I won 2, then went back to Silver4 again.
This F-in' yo-yo is soooo frustrating...