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Thoughts on changing Vayne's %HP true damage into %HP magic damage or flat true damage on proc.

TheSingularity··5 votes·912 views

Obviously, this thread is a biased one. This ain't about a loss, cos the most recent vayne game was hectic and hilarious :D

But as a utility tank jungle main, nothing crushes my soul more than seeing a vayne on the enemy team. My issue isn't vayne's mobility or ult steroid. It's the damage that you can't counter build, the damage that makes me feel useless, the %hp true damage. I understand she's like an anti-tank, but kog, trundle, irelia, gnar (To an extent), twitch and yi all manage to do this without %hp true damage. Instead utilising flat true damage, %HP drain (trundle) or in the trade mark tank shredders case, Kog Maw's hybridised damage (gnar does it too).

So why is it that vayne NEEDS %hp true damage? Kog used to get along just fine with his hybrid damage kit, and he had no mobility or hard CC. Unfortunately he's just a W bot now. Twitch's true damage is tiny early game, but he gets the job done as a squishy assasinator or tank shredder late-game, with low mobility and no hard CC. 2 champions who can do vayne's job, but have less true/no damage with less mobility and CC (they are caught and popped way easier)

In a way, vayne is comparable to pre re-worked kassadin in that she completely and utterly nullifies and entire class of champions. Is she op? nope, is she broken? kinda, fun to play against? nope, healthy for the game? nope. She isn't sleeper OP, but she's by far one of the most anti-fun champions out there to go up against.

My personal preference, change it to flat true damage or %HP Magic damage (Maybe a combo of the 2). Kog and gnar use magic damage. So vayne can to. She will still shred tanks and squishies alike due to mixed damage. But at least champions will be able to do something about it come late-game. Buff the damage or %hp ratio to compensate? GO AHEAD! At least there'll be some form of counter-play/build to abolish the feeling of uselessness for any tank unfortunate enough to get kited/chased by a vayne.

Just my 2 cents ladies. You agree? disagree? If the latter plz enlighten me and highlight the flaws in my idea.

30 Comments

Critmaster Garen6 votes

vanyes problem imo is that the counterplay to her silver bolts is a false choice. something that actually goes against riots design philosophy.

youre supposed to try and get out of range and force her to switch targets to deny her her third w proc. only that if you attempt exactly that, you trigger her passive and make it easier to stick to you. not to mention her general mobility with the short cooldown on her q. youre basically giving her free damage by trying to prevent it.

her kit generally lacks counterplay. its the main reason why shes such a strong solo que carry.

her passive is a static stat boost. her q is a mobility tool/auto attack reset/empowered auto attack. her w is a passive. her e is a direct targeted disengage. her ult is a self buff/steroid.

there are 0 abilites in her kit that you can actually play around. the best thing you can do is fight her straight on and hope you can stat check her. which is also a false choice for a melee champ because you get condemned and impaled when you try.

Caítlyn1 votes

Then you pressed Q and E with Garen and she died.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

Then you pressed Q and E with Garen and she died.

no, actually turns out a 6 item vayne can just facetank a 6 item garen spin with bork active while shes the villain, without even needing to kite.

inhumanlol1 votes

6 item Vayne can facetank 5 man team ( each with 6 items) unless they have a long HARD CC or chain CC her.

AlwaysByMySide1 votes

{quoted}

6 item Vayne can facetank 5 man team ( each with 6 items) unless they have a long HARD CC or chain CC her.

A six item Vayne couldn't face tank a single six item Master Yi or Rengar, much less a whole team.

inhumanlol2 votes

6 item vayne can easily vaye Master Yi. Vayne Q + ult means she can dodge and move from Yi. while Yi has 1 Q and gotta wait, not forget condemn. It's a different story with Rengar, whoever has the first shot (+CC) and skill will win.

Caítlyn2 votes

Oh look one of these crybabies again. Have you ever done math?

Less then 20% of Vaynes damage is true damage. Irelia and Yi both do far more true damage. Kog does far more damage period.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

Oh look one of these crybabies again. Have you ever done math?

Less then 20% of Vaynes damage is true damage. Irelia and Yi both do far more true damage. Kog does far more damage period.

against tanky champs a good 50% of her damage is true damage. ive taken well over 1200 true damage from silver bolts in fights. and actual true damage to my health, not "garen ulted me on 50 hp as the villain" - true damage and death recap shows more than 1k because its garbage and doesnt cut its overkill.

Caítlyn1 votes

So you say death recap is unreliable then you turn around and use it as “evidence.”

My numbers are taken from postgame.

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Critmaster Garen,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R9ugggfX,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2016-06-30T03:22:09.767+0000)

against tanky champs a good 50% of her damage is true damage. ive taken well over 1200 true damage from silver bolts in fights. and actual true damage to my health, not "garen ulted me on 50 hp as the villain" - true damage and death recap shows more than 1k because its garbage and doesnt cut of its overkill.

dude i was graves last match and i took 600 true damage from her. graves. no hp items at all.

i also have taken upwards of nearly 2k true damage on a ramuus that i had like 350 armor on

TheSingularity3 votes

12% of Targets max hp in true damage. Let's assume it's a tank with 4500 HP, that's 540 unblock-able damage every proc, I could have 10000000000000000 HP or 10 HP, every time that procs it will chunk the same amount. There is no work around for that. It ignores armour and is empowered by the one stat all tanks invest in.

Counter irelia/yi? Build more HP, their true damage won't scale with my beef and I can peel them both as they have to come to me to reach the carries. Kog? 2% of targets max hp, scales with AP which kog doesn't heavily invest in and he's immobile. Why does he deal more damage on average? cos tanks are the champs he focuses, their's more hp present and thus more damage to be done.

+Babe, if ur gonna downvote like a troll, bring on your arguments. I'll trample you any day bby [zombie-brand-mindblown]

Caítlyn2 votes

Vayne needs to shoot you more than 27 times IN A ROW to kill you with only true damage. If you let anyone shoot you 27 times in a row you deserve to die.

TheSingularity2 votes

You are ignoring the the fact that 9 of those is 540+basic attack damage which could potentially crit and is generally accompanied by a blade of the ruined king. You also ignore the damage of the other 18 auto attacks which again, utilise BOTRK/Lord dominiks as well as potentially criting. You have been trampled, have a nice day :) And as the kind sir above pointed out, I ignored her q and E to proc her W even faster.

Critmaster Garen3 votes

{quoted}

Vayne needs to shoot you more than 27 times IN A ROW to kill you with only true damage. If you let anyone shoot you 27 times in a row you deserve to die.

youre assuming here that she should be able to kill anyone with 100% true damage, or even 30% of your health in true damage are acceptable. it may be if she can only do this to 1 person, but after she wrecked someone with 1200 true damage she can just turn on the next guy.

plus, she doesnt actually need to shoot you that much. her e applies a stack, and her q is an auto attack reset. she can get at least one proc off on you in less than half a second with auto attck, q, impale and there is nothing you can do about it.

AlwaysByMySide1 votes

{quoted}

Oh look one of these crybabies again. Have you ever done math?

Less then 20% of Vaynes damage is true damage. Irelia and Yi both do far more true damage. Kog does far more damage period.

http://champion.gg/champion/Vayne

http://champion.gg/champion/Irelia

http://champion.gg/champion/MasterYi

A higher percent of Vayne's damage is true damage, and she does more damage overall than Irelia and Master Yi.

Not that I expect you to respond to this. I am rather smarter than the common rabble on this forum, and I know you're too scared to try your trolling antics on me.

MunchCrunchLunch2 votes

flat true damage would probably make her better in the current meta and not feel so toxic when your a tank getting chunked too easily.

to be honest i think true damage should be removed from vayne kit all together and be given something else.

Statchecky2 votes

There's also the issue of her stealth. A melee champion has to get past condemn and her stealth tumbles to then 1v1 her.

Ralanr1 votes

Stealth in this game is an issue in general.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

the biggest problem i have with vayne isnt even that she has max health % true damage, but that she just has to right click you from a distance to get it. there needs to be more of a condition on it like garens villain passive or fioras passive that you can actually play around, and there is the possibility to deny her this damage by outplaying her.

i wouldnt even be suprised if kindreds kit was originally a vayne rework, that didnt pan out or was dropped for other reasons. and they decided to put it on a new champion instead.

being a hunter/jungler and all 3 of kindreds base abilities and her passive would also have fit vaynes kit.

and riot is known for testing all kinds of reworks and new champions internally that never make it to live or get turned into other champions or abilities put on different champions instead.

for people who dont know, jhin was actually original kindred and internally running under the name "cyborg bounty hunter". they dropped the concept and made kindred with jhins original kit instead and made jhin an entirely different champion. and the concept of "cyborg bounty hunter" became high noon jhin.

theyre reusing a lot of stuff, so it would be possible that cyborg bounty hunters kit was originally a vayne rework.

67chrome2 votes

So why is it that vayne NEEDS %hp true damage?

So she has some consistency in 1 area and doesn't swing from completely useless to game breaking. As much. Any harder than she already does.

True damage allows Vayne deal a consistent amount of damage vs. anyone she pew-pews so her power swing isn't literally spit-wads to warheads. She's already swingy enough, it's nice that 1 part of her kit isn't completely item dependent.

Critmaster Garen2 votes

{quoted}

So she has some consistency in 1 area and doesn't swing from completely useless to game breaking.

but she does exactly that, if you look into her history.

shes either at almost 50% pickrate first pick adc, or she gets beaten by most other adc in lane and the game ends before she gets her power spike.

SaltyKracka1 votes

If she were worse at killing tanks, she'd have to be disproportionately better at killing squishies.

TheSingularity1 votes

Hence "Buff the damage or %hp ratio to compensate? GO AHEAD!"

TheSingularity1 votes

Wowsers 2/2/2/2 XD

Calabok1 votes

so buff Vanye?

TRUMP IS DAD1 votes

Flat % hp dmg.

Varus with 100 hp if vayne has lets say 25%with w varus would die in 4 hits (without the other hits assuming only 3rd proc flat dmg) Garen with 1,000,000,000 hp and same deal with 25% w... garen would die in 4 hits(without the other hits assuming only 3rd proc flat dmg)

Now if you did %Hp magic damage Garen with 1,000,000,000 hp would take like 200 hits compared to the 4.

% Magic damage... not any better.

Flat true damage makes it so tanks can build straight Health.

TheSingularity1 votes

A mix of the 2?

AlwaysByMySide1 votes

{quoted}

Obviously, this thread is a biased one. This ain't about a loss, cos the most recent vayne game was hectic and hilarious :D

But as a utility tank jungle main, nothing crushes my soul more than seeing a vayne on the enemy team. My issue isn't vayne's mobility or ult steroid. It's the damage that you can't counter build, the damage that makes me feel useless, the %hp true damage. I understand she's like an anti-tank, but kog, trundle, irelia, gnar (To an extent), twitch and yi all manage to do this without %hp true damage.

Kog is an anti-tank because he has the highest attack speed in the game, has mixed damage (the magic damage being percent max health), and is so long ranged he can do it from a safe distance away. He doesn't kill tanks as well as Vayne in a 1v1.

Trundle actually steals your tank stats to make the entire enemy team melt you, but you complain about Vayne being able to ignore your tank stats for herself? Lol.

Irelia isn't an anti-tank champion. Her late game damage scaling isn't particularly good since her flat non-scaling true damage is mostly good for killing champs with no health.

Gnar just isn't really an anti-tank at all past early game.

Twitch does it due to his huge attack speed and AD steroids, as well as his really long range and build path.

Yi does nearly as much true damage as Vayne relative to his damage, because unlike Vayne his damage scales with the AD he builds. He also stacks on-hits.

So why is it that vayne NEEDS %hp true damage? Kog used to get along just fine with his hybrid damage kit, and he had no mobility or hard CC. Unfortunately he's just a W bot now. Twitch's true damage is tiny early game, but he gets the job done as a squishy assasinator or tank shredder late-game, with low mobility and no hard CC. 2 champions who can do vayne's job, but have less true/no damage with less mobility and CC (they are caught and popped way easier)

Twitch and Kog don't get that true damage because they are much longer-ranged than she is, and unlike Vayne aren't completely single target.

Vayne has the highest single target DPS on an ADC due to her percent health true damage, and unlike Kog'maw she can't really benefit from his non-standard build path that gives him so much mixed damage to fuck with tanks. Vayne is fine.

TheSingularity1 votes

" Gnar just isn't really an anti-tank at all past early game." I manage to do it, max W, grab a botrk, proceed to make darius cry

"Twitch does it due to his huge attack speed and AD steroids, as well as his really long range and build path." He has to preemptively stealth for it, it ain't an insta click stealth/AD/move speed steroid.

Agree 50% on ur second point. Despite the splash, kog was primarily a single target shredder pre W change. Will agree on the twitch doe.

Critmaster Garen1 votes

i think it might be good idea to put the current w on vayne into her ultimate.

if her w dealt flat true damage or physical damage by default, and her ult would turn it into the current max health % true damage, youd at least have a window of power you can play around. her base kit wouldnt make her the constant massive threat it is on its own.

and vaynes ability to just wreck a large potion of the champion pool 1v1 as an ad carry would be more dependent on her ult being available.

it would be a good first step, but e her might also need some restrictions. she has enough outplay potential thanks to her mobility as is. there should be more room for error in her kit. not sure a skillshot would be appropriate, since the ability already heavily relies on positioning. but maybe it should only work if the shot would impale her target on a wall, or not at all. so it doesnt end up being the free disengage it is now.

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