support power needs to be separated from marksmen power

Big Lincoln··95 votes·2,650 views

and vice versa they're too intertwined with each other right now

i'm gonna start with support power-budget and items since I have more experience on them, as someone who has played support as either a main or a secondary since I started in season 4. I've always held the opinion that support itemization has been far too broadly valuable to be healthy (Locket, Redemption, etc) but we're seeing the opposite now where their items are being tailored specifically to one person -- the marksman. The last three different iterations of Zeke's have all been about enhancing your ADC, either by giving them crit, or by giving them bonus rightclick damage (which means ADCs get the most of it), and perhaps the biggest offender item 3504 , which, if you CAN build this item and you AREN'T, you're probably going to be insulted. There aren't any items that offer significant offensive boosts for other teammates who might be more apt to carry, and the defensive items are generally going to be used to protect the ADC above anyone else (which is fair enough since they're important, but for usually being AOE actives it's a bit disappointing.) A lot of enchanters in particular have gameplay that's sort of devolved into 'keep shielding this one guy and we'll win,' and I think that's really unfortunate.

To me, the biggest problem with support is that Riot is very tunneled on a specific 'play-style' they should embody, instead of giving them a broad selection of items for a class that IMO should have the highest build diversity by a wide margin; items with debuffs, buffs (that aren't explicitly best on an ADC), enabling champions to do certain things, and so on. In addition to that I think the CURRENT playstyle of being very protection-heavy could be done in much more fun/interesting ways than just hurling giant shields on their teammate and forcing a stat-check; something both parties actually have to play around would naturally set them apart from gluing to ADCs while still keeping them competent at doing their job.

I think ADCs stand to gain from this change, too; as of right now they are going to be nerfed again and again to compensate for the new power supports have come into, until they're no longer so out of whack. I'm not as experienced for this group of champions so I think I'd be overstepping if I said too much, but my biggest hope for separating them from being tied to their support and the support being tied to them would open up a LOT of leeway to diversify the ADC roster better, and might let us finally solve the age-old problem of these champions constantly having 3 or 4 picks who dominate the rest.

82 Comments

Salson26 votes

item 3050 item 3504 fck this shit.

They can actually leave the shields, just halve the lifesteal on ranged autos. Having both 3K shields and 1K per second self heal is retarded.

To me, the biggest problem with support is that Riot is very tunneled on a specific 'play-style' they should embody, instead of giving them a broad selection of items for a class that IMO should have the highest build diversity by a wide margin

I think the current League concept of Enchanter is a bit dated, you point and click on allies and they auto, that's it. Nami was the last one, and you hear people saying 'she's weak if she misses her Q'. Like no shit, it's called being healthy.

pixelvoxel1 votes

Rakan

RavenMagus11 votes

Rakan isn't an enchanter. He doesn't buff his ADC at all; he barely even shields them. He's basically Leona but with mobility instead of tankiness.

LankPants4 votes

But because he has a shield and a heal and he can build Censor right now he should build Censor. It has nothing to do with what item logically seems the best on him, Censor just grants the biggest bonus to your ADC so you buy it.

Dextix LT1 votes

Yep, rush it as a first item (Or second if you count sightstone).

Glory ln Death2 votes

Just make lifesteal work the same way as Warlord's Bloodlust. Healing is based on a % of your total AD, not actual damage dealt. No more massive healing from crits.

SwiftKitten8817 votes

Xayah what makes you say Rakan that?

Big Lincoln12 votes

opps I didn't mean to submit this yet

sorry I'll finish this after work lul

Salson9 votes

Oh dear God, Rito actually hired him.

Velzard of Koz4 votes

Now let's wait five patches before he finishes his thought

Fairyfleur12 votes

As someone who plays and enjoys Sona, Lulu, Janna quite a bit it doesn't feel good to only support and build for your ADC, and not the entire team.

It would be nice if they added more support items that help out bruisers and frontliners.

Ahristocats18 votes

as long as everything supports have are geared towards "marksmen are our overlord" and "melees can go to hell" it will always be like this sorry sir

i mean lady

Fairyfleur4 votes

I mean you don't have to rub it in my face

It was just something I wanted to point out :(

Edit: ignore this comment, it was aimed at an exchange in a different post. TY!

Ahristocats3 votes

{quoted}

I mean you don't have to rub it in my face

i don't know if this is a joke intended with my name

{quoted}

It was just something I wanted to point out :(

and i'm just pointing out that there is a reason supports build everything around marksmen

Penns1 votes

Well supports are kind of made to peel for/buff their adc tho, they help their team by warding. Tho some support item for a mostly melee team would be cool, item 3069 kind of counts I guess

GayFluffyUnicorn6 votes

if we go by league standards then yes. If we go by what supports actually mean then no. Supports should support the team and not buff and shield the adc alone. Also supports should be able to be played jungle or top or mid imo.

ZephyrDrake5 votes

{quoted}

if we go by league standards then yes. If we go by what supports actually mean then no. Supports should support the team and not buff and shield the adc alone. Also supports should be able to be played jungle or top or mid imo.

Ivern Morgana Karma Zyra Nunu Lulu

all champions who can be played mid and/or jungle that are supports. Supports are not just champions who go to the bot lane. The ones who are played bot are because they are designed to do well with little gold so they are put with someone who needs the gold more but aren't lvl reliant which most top and mid laners are

LankPants7 votes

all champions who can be played mid and/or jungle that are supports.

Zyra is a mid champion who can be played as a support, not the other way around.

She has nothing in her kit that actually makes her a support, she's a true mage who is co-opted into the support role because of shitty balancing.

Dextix LT1 votes

Let's see. Lulu cannot be played mid, if she is even sseen near midlane Riot nerfs her, hard.

Morgana, Karma and Zyra are actually midlaners. They are not supports, they are midlaners, but like the post below me says, due to shitty balancing they are relegated to supporting.

And no, nunu is not a support, he has not been one since like season 3, he is now a jungler, nothing else.

The only champ you listed that is a support/jungler is the tree guy.

Spoofghoul1 votes

Supports naturally do well with little gold that is why we ended up in a meta with duo bot lane

One of them just needs gold the other doesn't really need anything except a few levels though not even super reliant on them

Because they have utility, which doesn't really scale, a 2 second stun is always going to be useful no matter how little gold or levels you have.

Nielarken1 votes

Then you think back to when Soraka could give mid laners mana and reduce the magic resist for enemys for them or when Lulu could give movespeed/ap to help those mages move in and poke or assassinate targets. Tarick just helping the whole team with ap/armor auras. Zilean with exp boost, good times good times. Its a shame these were removed because you cant help other laners you are the adc pet.

Glory ln Death1 votes

I wonder if Ziggs bot would have stayed meta for more than 2 or 3 patches if Soraka still restored mana/Lulu still gave AP?

Teridax6810 votes

I agree completely with this, particularly with the way Enchanters are designed. It is no big secret that many Enchanters are frequently considered samey and not especially fun to play, and a big reason for that is that their core purpose revolves around babysitting a single ally and protecting them at all costs. Effectively, when playing support it's not uncommon to feel like you're made to be another player's personal servant, and this is turned even more specific to marksmen when you also factor in utility that can only work fully on that class, e.g. Janna's bonus AD on her shield or Lulu's bonus attack speed. Itemization only compounds this further by including items whose power is at its most effective only when you apply them specifically to marksmen, e.g. Ardent Censer, Zeke's Convergence, Knight's Vow, and so on. Marksmen already have enough personal power as is, and to make things worse many supports still operate by donating a huge amount of their power to the marksman, and the marksman only.

Two things need to change about this, imo: first off, supporting power needs to start being class-agnostic. We need utility that can work on members of more classes, including tanks, fighters, mages, even assassins, and we also need to stop giving marksman-centric utility on the kit of entirely separate champions. Lulu's bonus AS may be somewhat okay due to how she has her own on-hit effect, but Janna's AD makes very little sense on her besides generic trading power. At this point it would likely be worth giving out utility options that specifically do not work on marksmen, as it would give supports more targets they could really synergize well with, and potentially help out non-marksmen carries who want to go bot, as they are already working from a severe disadvantage in the game's current environment.

The second change that needs to happen is that we need to shift the power of many supports and their itemization away from simple protection, and more towards aggression and offensive playmaking. It might be okay for, say, Janna or Soraka to be focused on protecting their ally, but for someone like Lulu, who's naturally very good at trading and harassing her opponent, to have most of her power focused on her shield and defensive item actives is a waste. Riot themselves feel uncomfortable calling enchanters healers or clerics or the like, because they don't want them to be defined around their ability to babysit allies, even if that's what many of them are designed to do. Even in the case of protective abilities, those need to be made more interactive, rather than the current model where a simple button press can instantly shield a target for a quarter of their health, for the next 5 seconds, and with near-100% potential uptime (looking at you, Janna). Protecting an ally should require you to interact properly with enemies, and supports of all kinds have to have some of their power be contingent on their opponents' plays, and not just their allies'. Enchanters really should be about enabling allies, not just protecting them, and that can take on so many more forms besides spamming heals and shields. Thankfully, more recent support designs like Bard or Rakan give players a lot more agency, but there's still a long way to go before enchanters themselves can claim to do the same, and as long as they stay focused on protecting priority targets, they're still going to feel like pocket healers for the marksman, rather than valuable champions to their entire team.

ModUlanopo7 votes

I tend to agree. I've been playing a fair bit of HotS lately and one of the first things I noticed is that supports in that game have more diverse play styles, largely because they aren't overloaded with abilities that only support. Not having items and having everyone at the same level helps too.

I have grown increasingly frustrated with League because, as a support, there really isn't much I can do by myself, especially if I get caught out.

CasterGilgamesh3 votes

well, the reason for supports like in LOL the HotS supports don't have to worry blizzard will gut them out of other lanes.We can only have true support diversity when we aren't scared of having supports in other lanes (jungle doesn't count that's not a lane) also is ADCs need to not be mandatory to for every game (yet still useful)

Teridax686 votes

I agree on both counts. I think one of the advantages of supports in HotS is that, because the meta is significantly less rigid, and supports might end up being paired with assassins, tanks, specialists, or might even have to lane solo, they're equipped to be much more versatile in who they can work with, plus their tailor-made talents really allow them to lay down their own contributions, particularly now that most generic talents like Scouting Drone, Cleanse, Shrink Ray, etc. have been mostly culled from the roster. The game is proof that it really is possible to have supports who can easily be effective at more than just babysitting a single member of a very specific class, and who have enough independence to do things on their own without having to compromise on their supporting power, and without becoming too strong or generalist as a result.

I also agree that a major issue in League is that many supports can't do anything useful alone, and it's particularly irritating to have no real options when going out to ward solo and getting engaged on. Champions like Bard, Ivern and Rakan do feel like they have a lot more agency in that regard, but enchanters like Sona (with a support build) or Soraka are essentially guaranteed to die if they're caught alone. While I don't think supports should really be the strongest alone, nor do they need absolutely amazing self-peel, they shouldn't be so dependent upon their allies as to not be functional without them. I feel there's also a double standard at play here, as most supports cannot do anything except lane bot, and are often aggressively discouraged via nerfs from laning elsewhere, whereas many different marksmen thrive in solo positions, and have been deliberately encouraged to do so, even though team reliance is supposed to be one of their defining characteristics as well.

RizHippoKhan1 votes

I'm not that familiar with boards,your name is blue but that guy's name is teal,i hear guys with blue name are the 'wardens' does teal color mean he is like a "mega warden"? and i once even saw a guy with a yellow name; whats that about? (i guess this comment is a bit out of topic on this thread but plz bear with me ;-;)

SnakDatSmilesBak1 votes

Afaik they all get to choose the color they want. Spoiled brats, the lot of them.

Kloqdq1 votes

I noticed it when I played Paladins for a good while. The supports often have a heal but they can do so many cool things. Hell it's not rare to actually be a big part of your teams success because you played well. League it feels like as a support, your success is held by your adc and not by your play. Thresh is one of the better examples of how to do this well.

Elipo2 votes

You seem to despise janna though... janna's shield is usefull on every champion that deals ad damage since it buffs not only aa but any sourse of ad damage like damage from bruisers or assassins. Also it kinda annoys me when peopple o ly use her defensively, yeah she's great at that but she also is good at being agressive... is only that that's not as easy as being 100% babysitter because it needs better timing and the following up by team mates (wich can be the hardest part due to most of them being so used to passive Jannas that don't follow upfor their lives). Edit: Also an aoe heal, Janna's passive, the knock up from her q: all of her kit helps everyone in her team not only the adc.

Though I agree in the rest of the post.

Teridax682 votes

I don't despise Janna, even if I take issue with some parts of her kit. I actually quite like her for being one of the first enchanter-type supports with above-average mobility and a little more independence than the likes of Sona or Soraka, and I think she is capable of making amazing plays and using her kit inventively. However, my issue with her is that, even if it's possible to use her offensively, it's all too easy to just hang back and spam shields and instant knockups, which is enough to earn her a very good win rate for her pick rate. Her shield lasts too long, as do many other support shields and buffs, her W is pretty boring, her innate is good, but doesn't feel especially impactful at any given moment, and her Q can be made quite effective and not that high on counterplay when used instantly rather than left to charge up, which is sufficient in most situations. Making her shield more outplayable, changing her W into a more interesting effect, and toning down the power of her instant Q could all work wonders in making her truly interactive for her opponents. Removing the bonus AD on her shield in favor of a more general effect would also help, as even if it can help some assassins or fighters, it is almost exclusively used to buff the marksman, and does not otherwise synergize at all with Janna herself.

SnakDatSmilesBak2 votes

Janna is not great at being offensive. Perhaps into lanes like soraka she can be aggressive but if she steps into my range when I'm playing yorick, then she's gonna burn flash or die.

Champion Skin1 votes

Well that might be true.... however Janna shield will still almost always be better on ADC's later on in the game if you only look at the AD part (any champion can always be saved with some shielding)

Because of triple scaling AD X AS X Crit this makes it so the more AS and Crit the ADC have the more valuable AD is to them At the highest with 2.5 AS with 100% Crit with IE (or just enough luck to crit when it matters) gives a total of 6.25 X AD as DPS

so a Janna shield with 0 AP (40 AD) would then increase DPS by 250 Not to mention item 3504 which of course makes shielding ADC's or other auto attackers much more preferable

Champion Skin1 votes

Itemization only compounds this further by including items whose power is at its most effective only when you apply them specifically to marksmen, e.g. Ardent Censer, Zeke's Convergence, Knight's Vow, and so on.

To be fair Knight's Vow isn't as tied to marksmen compared with the other items since it at least isn't tied to AA's and is only tied to dealing damage (and also offering some protection to the ally) so it can work with ability based carry champions like Cassiopeia

Unlike Ardent Censer, Zeke's Convergence which only affects AA's

Swarovsko10 votes

That's what I always thought. I would love to give mana, ap or CDR to mages, CC reduction to juggernauts like MordekaiserIllaoi or damage reduction to tanks in general but NOPE, support is all about shielding and healing your ADC.

a class that IMO should have the highest build diversity by a wide margin

Couldn't agree more

Spoofghoul1 votes

I think both build diversity and kit diversity is needed

But kit diversity is especially important

Just look at Braum vs Sona for example

One is just a passive buff stick that follows the adc around and buffs and shields them and there isn't any real play involved you cannot outplay the sona healing & shielding the adc hell she dont even need to target the guy just mash the button

Braum by comparison protects the adc too, he can block incoming damage but you can position yourself to get around braum or try to get past him. He requires much more active play to do his job and you can actually do something about it, the stun get out before 4x attacked, you are at range then just dodge the Q You want to engage the adc but braum is in the way? Force him or the adc to separate so he is too far to jump back to them and protect them

Enchanters have really turned into stat check buff sticks and whoever can do it the best is meta.

You can't outplay their heals & shields and stat boosts, you can only out stat them

Glory ln Death1 votes

Zilean rework - his CDR ability can now target an ally, not just himself. To keep it from being too strong, it reduces cooldowns by a %, rather than the flat 10 seconds.

Shadow Hazard4 votes

I made a post about an idea for ardent to make it's power more carry universal instead of attached specifically to marksman power. I suggested taking away the attack speed boost and making it's drain behave a little like dft for a flat, maybe scaling with level, value. So it would apply it's damage differently if it's single target, AoE, or DoT. Zeke's can have a similar change also so that you aren't forced to only attach it to the adc. Knights vow does this idea best since it will benefit any carry instead of only the adc.

Thefrostyviking3 votes

Marksmen+supports will probably always be frustrating to play against.

It´s a duo consisting of a walking glass cannon and their shield carrier, when they both work they are immediately the biggest headache to play against but the moment one of them fails they´re both useless. ( In 7-8 outa 10 cases)

So you have to get to the glass cannon to prevent massive damage, but the shield keeps getting in your way, thus glass cannon walks around doing their thing causing havoc all around while the melee is stuck trying to both break the shield and endure the damage.

Which is when you´d either call in your mage or assassin to either break the shield or the cannon.

Issue is that the big support´s nowadays have the ability to both empower the cannon and protect it from two directions at once,

Thus you are left with a sci fi rapid fire laser cannon while the rest of the world is still sittting in the modern ages.

Sci fi laser >tanks in case anyone wondered.

So either the ability to protect needs to go down or the empowerment goes along with some of the cannons own power.

(I´d prefer to see item 3087 item 3094 nerfed, as i believe them to be the source of many of the more toxic patters that marksmen have at the moment)

Extra long range burst crit that´s also fairly consistent.-.........i´ve got a problem with this concept.

FilDaFunk3 votes

Supports enhance their team. So their power relies on their team. That's not something you can remove.

Big Lincoln5 votes

i didn't say remove but i could come up with plenty of new things to add to them

Verxint2 votes

Until bot lane is no longer exclusively ADC domain, this is going to continue to be a problem. When champions besides ranged glass cannons and Yasuo are allowed to be the primary DPS carry for the game, balance will be a lot easier.

morris12 votes

Just play Morde and steal their support.

IPERFECTO2 votes

Idk, i played Lulu with item 3069 item 3222 item 3107 and instead of adc buffed shyvana.It's worked pretty well since noone could stop her onslaught and she's just murdered anyone on her sight.The biggest problem that one champion that held hypercarries from free scaling lane was Caitlyn (but everyone with their mothers were in tantrut till she gut gutted),so after nerf they just went out to obliterate everybody,don't want to face cait? Then feel free to face crapstorm of hypercarries. And i pretty sure Zilean can give a good help to juggernauts with his boost.If you nerf all lane bullies one by one there won't be an answer to scaling hypercarries.So yeah, supports is usefull with other classes instead of marksman, it's about hypercarry meta that gives them free scaling and obviousely, best impact supp can give is by peeling them

DunkinNoobs1 votes

How exactly are you supposed to do that? Stats buffs benefit adcs the most. Shields and heals benefit adcs the most. CDR means more shields and buffs which benefits adcs the most. What kind of supports or support items are you gonna make that don't disproportionately benefit adcs?

Big Lincoln2 votes

items that aren't just raw stat buffs would be a good start

The Yetii Rider1 votes

We had old Zeke's Harbinger, which gave 20% bonus AP to both parties when it proc'd. It wasn't exclusively the best on marksmen and still no one built it.

The best way to detach support power from marksmen is to make non-marksmen viable in bot lane. That's a process Riot has been attempting since they released Yasuo. It's coming along, slowly but surely. Mordekaiser worked in bot lane, Ziggs was seeing play in bot all by himself without Riot forcing it, they'll get there eventually.

Toru Itai1 votes

I perfered Old Zeke's. It was the only AD sup item, it even had lifesteal It made Ashe support much more viable.

Gelmous1 votes

wish bot lane was an adc 1v1 lane with no supports, they can support top or mid idk

Leetri2 votes

It used to be like that in S1, but then EU discovered the current style of playing which was much, much better than the old way. Mages scale with levels, so they need all the XP they can get. Mid is a safer lane so mages can be solo mid and get the full XP. Mages and assassins usually are the best at roaming too, so mid gives them access to 2 lanes instead of just 1. ADCs are important for Dragon control, so they go bot. They also scale with gold instead of XP so they need to farm as much as possible. Tanks/bruisers go top since that's the one lane left. But since there's only 4 avenues of gold and 5 players you have to stick the last player somewhere. Tanks/bruisers don't need help to stay alive top, if they were to go mid they'd eat part of the vital XP from the mages, and that leaves bot with the ADC. Supports don't need much gold, and they can keep the ADC alive in a longer lane much more susceptible to ganks.

More from Gameplay

More by Big Lincoln