Now... when people say that Pre-Rework Mordekaiser was "Unhealthy"....

Blade of Justic·Aug 5, 2015·27 votes·2,660 views

Do they mean "OMFG, Riven is 7/0/5. There's no stopping her!" Unhealthy?

Or do they mean "Oh... you picked Olaf...." Unhealthy?

Basically, was he OP or UP?

48 Comments

TranquilisAug 5, 201523 votes

He was neither, his problem was that the counter play to Mordekaiser was essentially 'Don't get close to him.'

Raid Boss MordeAug 5, 20152 votes

Irelia, Nasus, Swain, Renkton, and many others beg to differ.

AspynnAug 6, 20152 votes

Swain ain't no melee sweetheart

Raid Boss MordeAug 6, 20153 votes

He gets in to melee range to fight...

AspynnAug 6, 20152 votes

He's a mage, he is ranged, and his root is decently long range. His ult crow chains aren't melee range, they're close range spells, but they're far from melee.

Raid Boss MordeAug 6, 20154 votes

He is ranged, but I have never seen a Swain fight from long range. When he fights, he gets in your face. I don't think you understand...

SkoonieAug 6, 20155 votes

...How does Morde ever lose to Irelia? It's one of his strongest top lane match-ups. Granted,that goes out the window when Irelia gets an item or 2 under her belt, but before that Morde shits all over her.

Raid Boss MordeAug 6, 20152 votes

I have never been able to win that match up. She outsustains you, out-tanks you, out-damages (somehow, true damage...) and her early and late game easily beat yours.

SkoonieAug 7, 20151 votes

Her damage is utterly reliant on her autoattacks early on, which can't chip away at your shield fast enough to matter, not to mention she draws minion aggro with her main trading skills (her Q and E), unlike you. She can't even last hit safely with you E'ing her face every time she gets in range.

Now, once she picks up item 3078 , the match-up completely swings in her favor as her burst combo destroys you unless you got a good advantage in while she was weak. My guess is that you're not abusing her enough early on, or she's smart and stays away from the minion waves until you use your E on it or her, and gets some quick CS before retreating back.

Raid Boss MordeAug 8, 20151 votes

Yeah, whenever I fight against Irelia, she sits far away from minions, then uses her Q to last hit quickly, then walks back. She repeats this entire process until level 6. I poke her constantly whenever I have the chance, but her sustain with her W, Flask, and potions is too much :(

My poke won't last long, because a 72 health cost with an abysmal health regen won't last.

SkoonieAug 9, 20151 votes

First, do you go cloth+5 pots to start with? Because if not that might be a big reason you aren't doing so well regen wise.

Secondly, you should be inside the minion wave near the ranged minions zoning her. That way, whenever she tries to last hit, she''ll have to go through you to do it. She' ll have to burn her E on you as well to keep you from dealing too much damage to her, which wears out her mana more quickly.

Raid Boss MordeAug 9, 20151 votes

I always start cloth + 5 potions against AD champs. Thank you for tip though, I will try that during that next match-up! I just feel like I'm really prone to ganks when I do that, and her 2 second stun will be the end of me :( I will still try it though!

SkoonieAug 9, 20151 votes

Remember that you're playing Mordekaiser:there's never a time you're NOT vulnerable to ganks. Just ward the river whenever you get the chance and upgrade your Yellow Trinket at level 9 and you'll be fine.

Only Play DariusAug 5, 20157 votes

{quoted}

the counter play to Mordekaiser was essentially 'Don't get close to him.'

Darius

NarasimhaAug 6, 20158 votes

The difference is, with Darius, its what he's meant to do. It's why he has a slow and a pull, to keep people in his zone of danger.

With Morde, it was kind of a weird situation. You're supposed to wear down his shield and hurt him in the early game when his sustain is weak.... but that means he can get his shield stronger while doing damage to you. It was just painful to face him as most melees.

Rew711Aug 6, 20151 votes

Welp, too bad we have mages and marksmen that can completely counter that part. Now, even melee can counter him.

bradAug 6, 20151 votes

{quoted}

He was neither, his problem was that the counter play to Mordekaiser was essentially 'Don't get close to him.'

i dont understand why thats a bad thing

I Main SwainAug 6, 20151 votes

exactly why i hated playing against him top lane. i tend to play immobile tanks top lane, so every time they had a mord i basically had to build pure mr for the first 20 minutes and beg for jungle ganks that never come

67chromeAug 5, 201510 votes

Basically, was he OP or UP?

Overpowered or Underpowered has nothing to do with being healthy.

Balance is simply a matter of numbers. You could theoretically make any mechanic, however absurd, balanced with the right numbers.

Being healthy is a matter of design. There are plenty of design choices that can be made to make a champion healthy or a mess, but none of them really have to do with raw numbers - it's more about what the abilities do themselves over the X and Y values tacked on them.

If a champion is truly unhealthy, Riot will generally nerf them so they just aren't strong enough to be competitively viable.

Anyways - Lack of health generally comes down to 2 main things:

Lack of counter-play.

Ideally, mechanics in a game should expand your options and make you think of new stratagies to deal with a given situation. Morganna's Dark Binding, annoying as it's school-bus-sized radius and year-long duration is, fits the counterplay scenario quite well due to being a skillshot you can attempt to dodge sideways, it's something with a fairly slow travel time you can see coming, and it can be blocked by some poor helpless minion. It opens up new tactics and play-making opportunities.

Anti-patterns, unclear optimization, misleading information.

A melee skill on a ranged champion, armor penetration getting hard-countered by armor, mana-burn getting hard-countered by a large mana pool, someone that looks like Sion being a glass-cannon that hits really fast rather than being tanky and hitting slow.

Morde fails these design aspects in a few areas. In regards to counter-play, "don't die" is you're only real option vs. his ult barring QSS, then you can buy QSS to make it worthless. Really wonky mix of you can't do anything vs. it, then you don't have to worry about it at all. Morde also fails via counter-play in his ability ranges and AoEs being really unlcear. Siphon is a cone-ability but doesn't hint at being so unless you're really playing Morde and see the AoE indicator.

For anti-patterns: Morde is often played more as a glass-cannon AP that's very spell-vamp heavy though his passive to survive long enough to do his job, which runs at odds with his overall aesthetic. Same issue basic issue the original Sion had, looks like a tanky DPS champion like Mundo, in reality is a a self-healing squishy like full-offense Soraka.

terkmcAug 6, 20153 votes

I dont think being bot lane and being forced to rely on a baby sitter fit with his aesthetic anyway

AnidanAug 6, 20153 votes

"Misery loves company"

Nah, just messin' with ya. The rework is odd. Not sure how I feel about it yet.

Old Man TeetoAug 5, 20156 votes

Mordekaiser won most of his matchups just by being immovable and unfightable.

He lost matchups by jungler interference which often times was risky.

His mid/late game was good against melee/short range teams but mediocre against good poke/stun burst teams.

VoidgolemAug 5, 20155 votes

His ideal use case was oppressive and he's borderline useless the rest of the time.

Ideally the rework narrows the gap - Ideal use is -less- oppressive, but he's no longer as much of an "oh shit the enemy bought QSS/Banshee I'mma just suck now" option. Dunno if it delivers on that. From the sound of things it doesn't.

[{quoted}](name=Blade of Justic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R8eLsjad,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-08-05T21:42:59.831+0000)

So the problem was feast or famine?

Isn't there a way to rework him that doesn't require changing his lane position?

Not if you want him to still be Morde.

Granted some people are saying duo lane morde isn't morde, which I think is bollocks.

AnomanderAug 5, 20152 votes

His rework is not as bad as everyone is screaming about.(I know I have tried it) However it does change him from a burst mage into a bruiser if you want to be effective.

Blade of JusticAug 5, 20152 votes

{quoted}

His rework is not as bad as everyone is screaming about.(I know I have tried it) However it does change him from a burst mage into a bruiser if you want to be effective.

That's fine, I played him as a hybrid bruiser anyways.

ArkenStormAug 6, 20151 votes

i played him as an AP sustained damage bruiser with this, but switching out wota and zhonyas for gunblade and rageblade(?) might work

{quoted}

i suppose that building instead of might be ok

Kuroi86Aug 6, 20154 votes

Riot wants him to be a bruiser, which fits his aesthetics.

SaltyKrackaAug 6, 20154 votes

The whole thing was Morde's whole identity is caught up in the whole "No CC, no mobility, TONS OF DAMAGE" thing.

So either you can burst him down before he can manage to kill you, or you just don't fight him.

Apparently CT decided that was the sort of thing that fit a duo lane far better than it did a solo laner.

AnomanderAug 5, 20153 votes

Both. If he got ahead or depending on who he was against he could steamroll or get steamrolled. There really wasn't/isn't much in between.

Blade of JusticAug 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Both. If he got ahead or depending on who he was against he could steamroll or get steamrolled. There really wasn't/isn't much in between.

So the problem was feast or famine?

Isn't there a way to rework him that doesn't require changing his lane position?

AnomanderAug 5, 20152 votes

Probably but I think it would take a major overhaul and he would not be even close to the same champion. I am talking SION lvl rework. Which might not be bad.

Blade of JusticAug 5, 20151 votes

{quoted}

Probably but I think it would take a major overhaul and he would not be even close to the same champion. I am talking SION lvl rework. Which might not be bad.

I miss old Sion, though.

Walking into the jungle as a kitable baby-man.

After 15 minutes, walking out of the jungle as a lean mean critting/sustain machine.

AnomanderAug 5, 20151 votes

I miss him but I love the new sion too.

LordFluffyJrAug 5, 20152 votes

I just love Cinderhulk Sion top. The amount of hp you get is so insane...I had a test with 9 other friends where we just played the game 5 v 5 for over 5 hours. We had Veigar, Nasus, and SIon. I went Veigar and just wanted to say I was so damn close to one shotting the Baron...Sion on the other hand built: merc treads, war mogs, thornmail, blood thirster, cinderhulk, infinity edge. It got to the point where and ADC would kill them selves killing him and he wouldn't take much dmg with his Warmog...

AnomanderAug 5, 20151 votes

should add in thresh for another infinite scale

LordFluffyJrAug 7, 20151 votes

Does Thresh's passive infintely scale for damage? His autos do a certain amount of AP depending on souls. Is there cap?

AnomanderAug 8, 20151 votes

infinite armor and ability power.

ErockandrollAug 6, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Blade of Justic,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R8eLsjad,comment-id=00000000,timestamp=2015-08-05T21:42:59.831+0000)

So the problem was feast or famine?

Isn't there a way to rework him that doesn't require changing his lane position?

According to riot, not without doing a much bigger overhaul. Riot seemed to think that this new bot lane gimmick was the path of least resistance.

ArkenStormAug 6, 20151 votes

screw the path of least resistance, do the work to do a rework well. don't make it a cop out rito

PoskeAug 6, 20153 votes

Actually he was unhealthy

Seriously who the fuck eats metal ...

ZhuganAug 6, 20153 votes

Morde's kit was OP in winning match ups in lane and UP in losing match ups because of how his kit functions. At the moment if Morde has more range, he pretty much roles his lane opponent unless they play around his siphon cooldown REALLY well. If you have more range than Morde, he has no real counterplay to that because if he bothers to try to get in range you can just walk away because of his total lack of mobility.

And, as Riot has said, they REALLY don't like for lane counters to be that brutal. They want a person with some skill or expertise to be able to overcome a bad lane matchup, and, with Morde, his match ups are just incredibly polar. (Which is a sign of bad design for a champion to be more or less 100% win lane or 100% lose lane.)

Señor KarthusAug 5, 20151 votes

He is not even that good if you get a lot of kills. At least not even close as good as Riven with one single kill.

AspynnAug 6, 20152 votes

That's a fucking joke and you know it. One kill is nowhere near the gold value of many, and riven will do exactly the same thing as morde will do with that gold, only he would have more of it. Morde cannot be outplayed, because he either instabursts you, or deals enough damage that his ult kills you after he runs away. Riven can be outplayed, because although everything that she has is aoe, with a mobile enough champion or vs a bad enough riven you CAN outplay her, not everyone can, but it is doable. You can flash her 3rd q, stun, or ult. A lot of rivens try to finish of their enemies with an ult snipe, and with the speed change it is not hard to walk away from/flash. Not ANYONE can outplay morde without a silence, burst, cc, or insane enough sustain to survive his burst, ult DOT, and then kill him before his cds come up again. He cannot be outplayed, he can only be outdamaged.

Señor KarthusAug 6, 20152 votes

{quoted}

That's a fucking joke and you know it. One kill is nowhere near the gold value of many, and riven will do exactly the same thing as morde will do with that gold, only he would have more of it. Morde cannot be outplayed, because he either instabursts you, or deals enough damage that his ult kills you after he runs away. Riven can be outplayed, because although everything that she has is aoe, with a mobile enough champion or vs a bad enough riven you CAN outplay her, not everyone can, but it is doable. You can flash her 3rd q, stun, or ult. A lot of rivens try to finish of their enemies with an ult snipe, and with the speed change it is not hard to walk away from/flash. Not ANYONE can outplay morde without a silence, burst, cc, or insane enough sustain to survive his burst, ult DOT, and then kill him before his cds come up again. He cannot be outplayed, he can only be outdamaged.

THAT is bs. You can perfectly outplay a Morde. Especially in lane. Attacking from the flanks. Negating his shield from your minions. Isolating him. The fact that you deny that there are champions that only need ONE kill to snowball makes me cry. Riven Diana to mention two.

ArkenStormAug 6, 20152 votes

"negating his shield from your minions" Do you know how morde works? WHAT minions? you HAVE no minions, they are all dead.

stuartk11Aug 5, 20151 votes

I think they mean "Having a chocolate bar for breakfast" unhealthy...

Kuroi86Aug 6, 20151 votes

Depends on if you got into his range.

If you got in his range, he wrecks your face.

If you stay out of his range, he is effectively a tanky minion.

CasterGilgameshAug 6, 20151 votes

he was just fucking op his poke is god like to most top laners most top laners can't poke away his shield overall he was very oppressing i should know i used to play him top and just poke them under a tower plus my free shield made tower shots worthless if i killed them with my ult i could push the lane so fast plus AOE wave clear with no mana cost is sooooooo good