Boards›Gameplay

New Sejuani has the exact same problems you said you wanted to fix

Big Lincoln··110 votes·8,974 views

Current Sej was (allegedly) problematic because a large portion of her power budget was tied into her ult, meaning the rest of her abilities had to be lackluster for it. Most Sej players were fine with it, though, because they enjoyed the high moment it offered and the satisfaction of landing a 4 or 5 person ult.

New Sej is the same problem magnified, but now with her new passive/E. It's now her primary source of CC, her highest source of damage (dealing 25% max HP late game), and other champions can build it up for her. As a result, all of her abilities including her ultimate feel just as bad to use if not worse. W is a shell of its former self, going from a hugely powerful DPS tool to one that does pathetic base damage and has laughable scaling. Q is the same. R is a joke, it's just a glorified Iceborn proc now. Even more laughable, because if you score a direct hit on someone and get the stun on them, they will be immune to both of the following slows AND the explosion damage. You will do more damage for whiffing your ult. Except unlike the current Sejuani and her ult, getting the stun and bonus damage doesn't even feel good or rewarding.

https://boards.pbe.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/champions-gameplay-feedback/MymFEVM9-sejuani-critique-and-suggestions my PBE thread offering more in-depth criticism of individual aspects

184 Comments

Ravenhale16 votes

As one of my highest played junglers, I'm more concerned with her camp clears. It looks like her W is no longer a DPS tool and that her E is now single target. This means the whole Q into a camp, W for a bit and E to execute no longer will work (was also the pattern I used to obliterate minion waves around level 7 or 8 when I played her top). If she has no AoE waveclear, I don't see how she would be a viable jungler or top laner. Is she a Support now, meant to duo lane bot with a Juggernaut?

KoKoboto4 votes

Her W has low CD, 7s at first rank going down to 5s. It also does bonus damage to monsters. So her AoE waveclear is still present. Also Cinderhulk deals less damage to champions but I believe does more damage to monsters and minions now.

LankPants5 votes

Her W on live has a 11 second CD at rank 1 but does about 2x the damage and resets her AA while her new W interrupts her AA. There's a definite cause for concern here, her AOE is far weaker on the PBE than it is now even with the bonus damage.

Also the AOE it's feasible to hit multiple targets with has a base damage of 12. Her AOE has taken a giant hit.

KoKoboto3 votes

Yeah, when fighting champions, damage wise, her W is lacking insanely. At LEAST make the ability to magic damage. They put too much damage into her icebreaker passive. However her W is still good for waveclear and with the new cinderhulk it's still easy for her to waveclear. Just go watch any Sejuani jungle video.

Ravenhale1 votes

There's no point arguing her clear is comparable after getting Cinderhulk. Pretty much every tank jungler has decent clears after picking up Bami Cinder or Tiamat. What can make or break a Tank Jungler is how quickly they can get that item. If her Jungle clear is worse pre Cinder... that's going to be rough.

KoKoboto1 votes

Yep you're right all weak junglers are fine after their first item. Her jungle clear isn't worse than before though so she should manage the same in terms of clearing jungle.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohjZz5qetJQ

Ravenhale2 votes

Watched the video and I'm thinking it actually may have been improved.

Well, ignoring any rune/mastery modifiers, Sejuani starts out with 600 Health. The PBE shows her Rank 1 W dealing an additional 11 damage, which is almost 2% of her maximum health.

So if she can hit everything with both parts of her W, she should do 153 raw damage AoE on a 7 second cooldown. In a 30 second window, she gets 4 casts for roughly 600 damage.

Just looking to compare the current AoE damage from W, she does 40+4% of Her Max health (64 raw AoE damage) on an 11 second cooldown. Don't even need to do further math to see that the new W should outperform the old W provided she can hit the entire camp with the second half of her W. You do lose the AA reset and the Enhanced AA, but those are both single target and I think Sejuani's new passive coupled with her E stun will far outperform that old mechanic from her W when it comes to single target concerns.

I'm thinking you would want AS reds over MPen or AD reds (I currently run the AD reds). I saw he started the Talisman, which makes me wonder what Quints he used. I prefer to run the Machete coupled with Life Steal Quints and the Masteries that boost Lifesteal and Self Healing. This usually means you have to start blue buff for the Mana Regen, but this setup is what I've found to work on most junglers for healthy clears.

Hmm... that new mana cost for W is hefty. I might not get away with a Lifesteal focused early game. I probably don't need the CDR blues with W and E being more spammable. Definitely will need to experiment and compare.

Ralanr12 votes

What's the base damage on her new W? I remember they wanted to change it because they didn't feel it had much skill expression with being a glorified sunfire, but if the new W base damage is so low that it's only useful for her stun passive, then I'd rather they nerf her stun passive damage to buff up the base damage on her W.

I mean, what is she supposed to clear with if not her W early?

Big Lincoln32 votes

it's pathetically low

Winter's Wrath [W]: 60 mana 7/6.5/6/5.5/5 sec Cooldown Sejuani swings her flail, dealing 12/19/26/33/40 (+x) physical damage and applying Frost to enemies hit. She then lashes out with her flail, dealing 48/76/104/132/160 (+x) physical damage and applying Frost. Winter's Wrath deals 20% bonus damage to monsters.

And you need roughly 4000 HP to double its damage at rank 5.

she should keep her DPS tank identity. it's unique to her and it would be far more interesting than being a stunbot

Ralanr13 votes

Wait does it scale with health?

I wouldn't mind keeping her more of a dps tank so long as it isn't super reliable (because reliable damage output on tanks tends to be a problem imo) but you're right that the base damage is pathetic. The point of these more delayed abilities was to give more skill expression when using them, but you need to provide a good reason to use them and with how her allies work with her E I don't see her really wanting to use this much.

Bonus damage to monsters

And so begins the bandaids to enforce tanks into the jungle. I was afraid of them resorting to this.

Big Lincoln15 votes

I would argue that Sejuani has less skill expression now. Landing ult isn't as important, W is only good for stacking frost. the hardest decision to make is now "Who I press E on first"

Wait does it scale with health?

Yes, it's not a strong ratio though. Like I said, at rank 5 you need about 4000 health to double the 200 base damage.

Ralanr9 votes

Yeah the base is way too low. They should buff it up (to the point where she doesn't need bonus monster damage) and reduce the damage from her stun combo.

25% max health? Even I think that's too high. I don't care if the ability has a super long cooldown, that's an insane amount of burst for what I assume is something that doesn't scale.

Ravenhale1 votes

Since I don't have the PBE, I'm thinking you want to take your W with a good leash to get your E. Then you will use your W to stack frost, use E to stun the large monster, and then your passive will chunk the large monster for 15% of its max health. Q doesn't stack frost and it does not appear that Sejuani's basic attacks stack frost either (it's not worded that her AA stack frost in any of her skills/passives). So she needs to get two W skills off for the 4 stacks in order to use her E stun.

LankPants2 votes

does not appear that Sejuani's basic attacks stack frost either

They do.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K1zm12YLOwk

Ravenhale4 votes

Her E passive needs to be reworded to allied Melee and herself. It's presently worded as allied melee.

LankPants6 votes

Sejuani is an allied melee. It's technically correct, the best kind of correct.

Personally I think it should be reworded to Sejuani though, and it should be made so she can stack it without being reliant on her allies. Crazy idea right, making a champ not garbage by themselves.

Atanchan1 votes

Auto-W-auto-E-auto?

Would be nice if Q applied a stack, too, so you could Q-auto-W-E-auto, but it doesn't seem that difficult to stack. Not simple to stack, mind, especially against someone with a dash, but a major part of it is that she doesn't need allies to stack it on the same target, so if you're keeping the enemy jungler off of your top laner as they duel the enemy top laner, you can get a stun on the enemy laner before you can even get in melee range.

LankPants1 votes

I'm thinking more along the lines of letting her stack more efficiently in AOEs. What I'd like to see is for her ult to stack up her E, probably alongside her Q so she can be more of a teamfight threat with a more impactful ult (her PBE ult feels really bad) and less reliant on her melee allies.

so if you're keeping the enemy jungler off of your top laner as they duel the enemy top laner, you can get a stun on the enemy laner before you can even get in melee range.

This is ultimately the biggest problem with Sejuani's rework. It's too much power in a form that Sejuani gets almost no agency or control over and it will lead to Sejuani being weak in cases where she can't work with a melee ally.

Atanchan1 votes

Eh, I don't think it's too big of a problem unless her power while grouped doesn't make up for it. Not every champion has to be even so much as a decent duelist. I think her passive will allow her to top lane as a passive farmer, and the main issue that it'll afford her in the jungle is leaving her weak to counterjungling.

Which, admittedly, is a pretty big issue with the current state of the jungle, but solving that would require three ( and perhaps more ) different champions to be reworked instead.

On the brightside, she might be the perfect support for botlane Morde. :v

LankPants2 votes

Not every champion has to be even so much as a decent duelist.

Every jungler has to be at least somewhat decent duellist. That's just the nature of the role, a jungler who can't duel is also going to struggle with clearing, since damage is the largest part of both.

I also never said anything about duelling, I just personally hate the idea that my champ is getting changed from someone who engages fights to someone who follows around a bruiser like an obedient pet just waiting to followup stun for them. What a garbage twist on Riot's "Leader Fantasy".

Which, admittedly, is a pretty big issue with the current state of the jungle, but solving that would require three ( and perhaps more ) different champions to be reworked instead.

Or alternatively a less shit Sejuani rework.

Big Lincoln10 votes

W should be changed to be her primary damage tool, full stop. The stun should be reward enough, with maybe 10% of max HP for freeze procs (given that her W used to be 12% before nerfs)

Ralanr6 votes

Anything below 15% would be much more balanced imo. 25% is just flat out disgusting.

Big Lincoln9 votes

and I'm kind of reaching here, but I'd like to see the defense steroid get shifted too. I don't like the "charge out of combat" system that makes you need to leave fights to get it back. It feels counter-productive to a champ who's encouraged to go in.

would rather it be tied to freezing people to get large defensive boosts. I like things that are a pay-off for doing something, not just... getting it, you know?

Ralanr2 votes

Imo it feels weird getting a defensive boost for freezing people since odds are they aren't going to be hitting you for a portion of that boost (because you froze them).

Personally I don't mind her defensive steroid. It's more meant for her to be going in than for her to try and keep it up as long as possible.

EndlessSorcerer3 votes

Honestly, I'd prefer the defensive steroid be generated in combat.

Sejuani has always struck me as one who would be in the middle of the fight, wreaking havoc against all who surround her like a fierce unrelenting force.

While it would be less useful in duels (for the reason you mentioned), it seems more suitable for the buff to be generated while in-combat. It would help her better survive in the middle of a teamfight while hunting down her target.

LankPants2 votes

Maybe enemies recovering from frost could deal reduced damage to you decaying over a few seconds? That would be a fair and active way for the defensive steroid to work IMO, it also makes at least a little thematic sense.

Chromatic Eagle5 votes

Landing the ult isn't supposed to be as important. That was the point. Might have a fair enough point on the W, but stacking frost isn't bad since that's what the tank updates were meant to do: apply more cc at the cost of (reliable) damage.

Big Lincoln6 votes

at the cost of reliable damage

i'm not seeing that here

Chromatic Eagle3 votes

She has to hit 4 times or rely on her melee allies. Weren't you criticizing her E a few days ago?

Big Lincoln8 votes

hitting someone 4 times isn't unreliability, it's just backloading

would you call Darius, Twitch or Kalista unreliable in their damage output

Weren't you criticizing her E a few days ago?

my criticisms were that W and E should be combined so a new ability could be made or E should be removed entirely. Not putting more emphasis on an ability that is completely uninteresting

KoKoboto3 votes

Yes I would call Darius unreliable in terms of damage output. He has no tools to get to a fight and is dependent on his build choice. His only tool for catching someone is his E, if you miss E Darius isn't going to catch you.

Sejuani has the same problem because she is melee, it's unreliable to get E stacks if you try to auto attack because she has no other guaranteed CC in her kit. You have to use skillshots in order to effectively gain E stacks or rely on melee allies.

LankPants6 votes

You have to use skillshots in order to effectively gain E stacks or rely on melee allies.

Some allies are too reliable. Renekton for example can stack 4 stacks with a simple AA>W, which stuns the target while he does that, into another stun. Or Fiora can AA>Q>AA>E>AA getting 4 stacks in about a second. It's too variable and can never be balanced, since it lacks even the "Braum must engage it" leaver.

TzQGRUST392 votes

Darius is unreliable, kalista and twitch are not. What makes Darius passive and Sej passive/e unreliable is that you can only cash in after a certain amount of stacks. Kalista and twitch can auto 3 times then pressing e for a trade or right before they are about to die, its garaunteed value unless you get perma cc'd. Sejuani and Darius get nothing for stacking only three times (other than darius bleed damage, but what you get what i mean).

The Yetii Rider3 votes

[{quoted}](name=Big Lincoln,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=R7vo6UuA,comment-id=0001000000000000,timestamp=2017-04-19T14:23:09.503+0000)

I would argue that Sejuani has less skill expression now. Landing ult isn't as important, W is only good for stacking frost. the hardest decision to make is now "Who I press E on first"

Yes, it's not a strong ratio though. Like I said, at rank 5 you need about 4000 health to double the 200 base damage.

Tanks shouldn't be dealing 400 damage with a single ability. That's the point of this update, to help make tanks more defined as opposed to divers and juggernauts (and to nerf Maokai out of pro play).

Sejuani originally had the DPS tank identity, but that's as important as Poppy's old Hyper scaling identity or Sona's passive aura identity. If an identity is inherently unhealthy for the game, it will be completely reworked. Sej losing all her damage isn't even as crippling as Kass/Talon/LB losing their silences.

Big Lincoln4 votes

25% max HP

Penta Penguin4 votes

physical damage

wait what the fuck?

EndlessSorcerer12 votes

After the Sion and Poppy reworks, I was optimistic. They have already had successfully reworked two champions into the tank role, so I was hoping these would be successful too.

Honestly, these reworks are just depressing.

Hopefully they don't end up like Malzahar. He's been displaced from his original role, nerfs weakening him further while Riot refuses to revert the rework or acknowledge it failed horribly.

Linna Excel3 votes

That's the thing about riot's reworks EndlessSorcerer, they are just so random in terms of what comes out of them. My current belief is riot has a 50% chance of making a kit better overall, and 50% chance of making it worse overall with a rework. You just don't know which one riot is going to deliver.

LankPants12 votes

My current belief is riot has a 50% chance of making a kit better overall, and 50% chance of making it worse overall with a rework. You just don't know which one riot is going to deliver.

I wouldn't even care about that if Riot were willing to suck up their pride once in a while and a few patches after a clearly flawed rework just say "we fucked up guys, have your Shen/Mord/Sona/Sej back, it's clear that our rework failed".

When Riot did this with Kog it was a great step, I just wish they'd be willing to do it more.

Ralanr4 votes

Don't expect it on anyone they did heavy model and animation work for (Shen). Too much time goes into that to just throw it away after launch.

LankPants13 votes

I really hate that philosophy of "we did a lot of work on it, so keep it". That's how you get Dynamic Queue only in 2016. Riot needs to be willing to say "We did a ton of work, but it's utter garbage and was actually made worse by our work, so scrap it". It may suck to spend months on something for no progress, but it sucks even more to spend months on something only to regress it.

Ralanr2 votes

See the issue is that what the playerbase and what Riot judges as failures are different things and often for different reasons.

LankPants7 votes

I'd argue that they need to sit down and look at what they've done then. Look at why the community considers these reworks failures. Ultimately community opinion is actually more important than Riot's, if they ever make a "For Honour" bad decision then the player bases opinion is suddenly massively important. They should always treat it like it is though, because every poor decision does hurt them in one way or another.

Ralanr2 votes

See the player community opinion could lead to a much less balanced game. Especially with much of the playerbase being bronze or silver.

LankPants8 votes

And Riot's balance has lead too... Lee Sin VS Graves every game. 53% winrate >40% pickrate Lucian. Ekko and Fizz played as tanks. Riot isn't sparing anyone anything by ignoring the community, at least in terms of spotting issues the community is far more on point than Riot.

Ralanr3 votes

Dude they gutted Tank Ekko a while back.

And remember that Riot doesn't exactly approach the game from patch to patch. They do it several patches ahead.

Linna Excel1 votes

I wonder if riot even sees their mistakes as mistakes.

Ralanr2 votes

Depends on how you define "mistakes".

As something to learn from? Probably.

ForeverLaxx2 votes

If they do, they never say as such to the playerbase. Not anymore, anyway. Now they're viewed as a "numbers issue." Riot has essentially convinced themselves that any change they make is always the right change, so if something doesn't work right, then it was a problem with the numbers involved and not the base design. Very rarely does Riot go back and revert something they screwed up, and the few times they do, it's usually only a partial revert because they're still too reluctant to admit it was a flawed design from the start.

Hell, most of the time when they say something has a "flawed design" it's in reference to older champions that were built with an older design team that isn't around anymore simply because they want to redesign the character and make it flashier but with all the same stated problems they claimed to be "fixing."

SociopathFriend4 votes

Honestly, these reworks are just depressing.

Speak for yourself, out of the few people I've seen try Zac, every single one has enjoyed the Q change. The ult obviously takes a bit more getting used to but was generally enjoyed.

Sej personally looks more fun to me than she did previously since there's more for her to actually do while playing. Old Sej was throw your ult, Q in, activate W and E and then just walk around doing damage. New Sej still has Ult and W, but W now is more fun to play with and E has interesting interactions with other champions.

I'll give you the Maokai though, he seems weaker than before, although I only saw him played in top and both players mentioned he would probably be better in the jungle.

More from Gameplay

3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay764 comments
7,167
votes
3 Refunds per season, upvote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay156 comments
3,510
votes
UPVOTE FOR URF
Gameplay606 comments
2,440
votes
Yes plz.
Gameplay456 comments
1,721
votes
3 Refunds per season, up vote if you want 3 refunds per season.
Gameplay114 comments
1,716
votes
When is ANYONE at riot going to address the awful new player experience?
Gameplay634 comments
1,383
votes

More by Big Lincoln

these "upvote if you agree" threads are cancer
Memes & Games44 comments
268
votes
Look at all this GHOSTINESS
Story, Art, & Sound90 comments
241
votes
viktor changes are awful
Gameplay92 comments
185
votes
Generalists are bad and we want to rework tanks to be not that
Gameplay130 comments
170
votes
Have to say I'm pleasantly surprised by Warwick
Gameplay261 comments
159
votes
Why is Swain getting nerfed
Gameplay229 comments
157
votes