Can we reduce the shield amount on maw?

Unlucky47·Jan 13, 2017·6 votes·503 views

Hear me out, I know I'm speaking to brick walls half the time, but hear me out.

As someone that plays a lot of ap champs, It is really frustrating to know that you can't beat someone that rushes maw even if they're behind. The countless times I've got ahead a few kills on like akali or evelyyn and then just completely can't do anything to someone who even has hexdrinker. The item gives great stats already but the shield on top of it is really strong. I'm NOT saying I should be instant bursting people through maw, but I should be able to kill them in a few rotations if I'm focusing them.

19 Comments

woodvsmurphJan 14, 20173 votes

What we need, is better variety of magic pen items -- suiting both aa based and spell based mages. Ad champs have tons of armor pen/lethality options for all stages of the game, while ap mages have few options many of which are specific to certain kits and do not do well on other kits. item 3147 item 3814 item 3036 item 3033 item 3071 item 3142

item 3091 item 3151 item 3135 item 3020

I think the point I am trying to communicate is that ad champs can get a mix of mr/damage, lifesteal, and penetration items so that champs like kha can 1v3 3 enemy carries with equal items to him while some ap assassin like ahri or akali cannot say the same about trying to 1v3 3 ad carries at equal items to her. This is a manifestation of poor selection of magic pen items -- they may have good magic pen but don't all fit with a champs kit to provide the same overall synergy that you can get with armor pen items and certain champs. And the second factor is too many overly good options for mr+damage items on ad champs.

Unlucky47Jan 14, 20171 votes

that's similar to what I would like. I play ap assassins alot and there's nothing that differentiates an assassin from a mage

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 14, 20171 votes

yes... but that isnt the argument...

it is that maw is op and needs nerfs cuz ap champs have issues... they also do BURST damage .... one rotation from ziggs, syndra, victor, lux, velkoz, and so on can kill you in 1 rotation of spells. and they also have higher #s of raw AP compared to ad champs

typical ap mage has 500-700 ap depending on game and build. and typical full ad champ has maybe 315 ad

woodvsmurphJan 14, 20171 votes

Yes, ap's have higher ap than ad's have ad; how many autos plus spells do ad's do in 6 sec? How many autos and spells do ap's do in 6 sec? If you actually think about it, the ad probably does close to the same amount. And the difference? The ap now has to wait 6-12 sec before being able to do the same amount of damage again while the ad gets to keep spamming autos. It's all well and good that you can burst a darius or kha to 1/3 hp, but then you have no damage left to finish him off. Meanwhile he's done half your hp in the same amount of time and gets to keep wrecking you -- while lifestealing up thanks to maw so...

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 13, 20171 votes

its a shield that only goes into effect after they are below 30% of HP and only shields for 300 + 1 per bonus mr... so lets say its an ADC who has a flat 30 mr. and they take 9 flat MR runes for +12 mr and maw gives 45mr so 300+12+45 =357

so it only shields for 357 after they fall below 30% hp while taking magic damage... typically adc has roughly 1900 hp at lvl 18

so they have to lose 70% of their hp to activate the shield 1900-70% (1330hp) = 570hp... and then the shield goes into effect for + 357 (effective hp ) for 927 effective hp ( VS MAGIC DAMAGE)

either way they are still squishy... and it dont protect vs physical damage or true damage or bonus damage.

now if you wanna cry that a 3400 hp darius has a maw and mercs and you cant burst him then YEA YOU SHOULDNT ....

Unlucky47Jan 13, 20172 votes

But 45 mr is a really large amount of mr from an item that also gives attack damage. There isn't alot of early magic pen to pick up that can deal with it which means you have to suck it up and not fight them until you can afford voidstaff which is one of the most akward build paths in the game.

You say they have to lose 70% of their health first but that 45 mr makes it take significantly longer to do that in the first place. The shield reminds me of irelia where the player gets rewarded for losing and the opponent gets punished for winning. I'm not asking for a huge overhaul of the item just a reduction in the ridiculous shield it gives on top of all the other stats.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 13, 20171 votes

and how much MAGIC PEN does mages have in their items runes and masteries?

flat magic pen from runes +8 , +15 from boots, +35% from void staff. if you go 18 in 1st tree thats +7% magic pen

so from 2 items and masteries and runes you have flat 23 magic pen + 42%

give me a break

by the time you have boots and the flat magic pen and the 7% from masteries is way before the adc has built a maw or let along a hex drinker

and with just boots and magic pen from runes and masteries you are practically doing true damage to most champs on the game

Unlucky47Jan 13, 20171 votes

But I'm not talking about adcs in the first place. I'm talking about ad assassins/fighters in mid and top. And the problem with your argument is that ap assassins don't go 18 in the first tree so that 7% isn't viable. I'm not talking about the amount of magic pen late game, but the lack of magic pen early game. Like don't add a new item just add something that has magic pen that builds into void staff or something. To get full magic pen from runes is unviable. No one actually does that. You're talking like well IT COULD happen and yes it could but it's not going to and runes shouldn't be taken into consideration for balance in the first place.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 13, 20171 votes

ok so you go 12-18-0 and get flat magic pen per lvl

and usually mages have the highest damage output in games ... they have range, cc, burst, and aoe...

they arent hurting...

Unlucky47Jan 13, 20171 votes

I'm not saying they are i'm saying that regardless most ap matchups will still lose lane because of one item. Riot has shown they don't want the game being won solely off of itemization by removing pink wards.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 13, 20171 votes

but its not true... we see more mages now in game then before...

for example ZIGGS AP BOT

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 13, 20171 votes

http://champion.gg/statistics/#?sortBy=general.winPercent&order=descend

top 15 champs according to win rate

Sion Kayle Shaco Corki Zilean Ziggs Ivern Janna JarvanIV Ahri Swain Sona Soraka Twitch

out of those 15 champs maybe 3-4 might get a hex drinker.... those being Sion Shaco Corki JarvanIV

majority of the champs are AP BASED Kayle Zilean Ziggs Ivern Janna Ahri Swain Sona Soraka and Shaco can be ap

so 60 % of the top 15 champs are ap based champs and if you included shaco its a 66% being 10 of 15%

Unlucky47Jan 13, 20172 votes

That doesn't even remotely cover what I said... I'm saying that AP tends to lose against AD IF the AD builds maw. This doesn't take into account the amount of times ap fights ad or even if the ad actually builds maw because they often times won't. I shouldn't have to restate myself but these statistics don't cover the topic.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 14, 20171 votes

apparently not... if majority of the top win % champs are ap... meaning AP wins ... regardless of what is built... and it isnt even built as often as item 3157 which gives cdr, ap, armor , a active to become invulnerable or untargetable. and it protects vs all types of damage if you activate the item

OH and it cost less then item 3156 http://www.elophant.com/league-of-legends/items/most-purchased

item 3157 is 18th item 3156 84th

http://www.elophant.com/league-of-legends/items/win-rate

item 3157 57.83% win rate item 3156 58.50%

but not nearly as built as often... therefore its not built in every game for every ad champ... it is typically only built when facing a fed AP threat or multiple AP threats

SnugglePuggle94Jan 14, 20171 votes

Zilean Sona Janna Soraka are supports and don't/rarely build magic pen so you can take those out.

oSEXYPLATYPUSoJan 14, 20171 votes

wrong ... zilean win rate is for mid ... he gets magic pen in runes... and even at support he runs ap quinst and magic pen runes... sona same , janna best set up is hybrid reds with ap quints.... they all run ap ... there fore they do ap damage....

SnugglePuggle94Jan 14, 20171 votes

Sorry but no I rarely see Zilean mid, and he and Janna rarely take those set ups in my elo. Higher elo maybe but not for the majority of players. I'm just saying as supports they don't build MAGIC PEN, even if they have AP in runes/masteries, so they barely do any damage at all, so they can't even touch a assassin/fighter who has a MAW.

Therefore supports should be taken out of that argument.

woodvsmurphJan 14, 20171 votes

Most mages don't go 18/12 masteries -- they go 12/18 for thunderlords. Also, you generally don't rush item 3020 any more than a typical adc rushes item 3006 ; some mages don't even build sorc boots -- they need item 3158 for the cdr. And as said below -- it's not the adc's people have a problem with. If they want to build maw over bt I don't care. It's the bruisers and assassins that mages don't like maw on; the same people who dive and kill you with impunity mid game -- if magic pen or mr items were scaled in line with each other, a burst mage could probably delete that bruiser or assassin who dives to kill you -- saving your life in the process.

woodvsmurphJan 14, 20171 votes

that mr makes it take more to even activate their shield
besides the shield, they get lifesteal, etc. which lets them tank further damage because the extra lifesteal effectively gives them more health
I don't think the issue is with adc's building maw so much as it is with bruisers and assassins building it -- like a 5 item kha diving 1v3 and tanking 4 item syndra ult, 5 item rumble ult, and 4 item cait damage and killing them all -- through a zhonya on rumble and tanking rumble equalizer and q whole time. Maw helps make some champs just a bit too broken. Now if kha 1v1'd rumble or syndra, no problem; he should be able to do that late game if itemized correctly, but 1v3? There is something a bit too broken about that -- mostly kha himself, but also maw. Just think about what you get from maw (mr, lifesteal, scaling mr shield when enemy is about to burst you) vs from ap equivalent (ap, armor, delay your death by 2.5 sec to annoy enemy at best) -- not a fair trade. Maw is so much better. Also, just check out streamers and you will hear them say how even getting hexdrinker basically means an enemy ap (rumble, midlaner, akali top, etc.) cannot all-in them and kill them unless they poke you out very low before going all-in for the kill. The same cannot be said for the ap mage in the matchup upon building zhonya or ; they still can be all-in bursted without help of a gank.