He has damage and mobility so it's unreasonable to also give him tank stats. Once he get's maw he just stops taking damage from mages even if I'm a brand with void staff. There is just no reason for him to take my entire combo and still be at half and then auto a minion twice and be back at full. Please reduce the stats he gets from his e.
N Komaeda9 votesI quite agree that Graves is overpowered, yes. However, what you need to keep in mind is that every champion has a reason for their power.
's abilities are kept weak and without much scaling, because he can stack DoT like a madman, burst you with it, has stealth and can be quite long range.
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pays the price of being immobile and slow-paced, so he can "afford" the burst he has.
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has decent scaling, but a lot of his power comes in his E. However, his disadvantage is that he needs to build tanky to profit the most from the damage reduction of his E, thus nullifying a lot of the scaling.
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sacrifices long(er) range, attack speed (in the form of his ammo) and utility for the damage and tankiness he provides.Also, keep in mind that True Grit is meh~ish to stack, simply because at the least, it requires 4 procs of it towards enemies. Presume that he hits an enemy at lvl. 18 with his 6 pellets from a crit, that reduces his cooldown by 3 seconds. If he were to attack twice a second, his cooldown will be reduces by 6 seconds + 1 from the passing one. At rank 5, his E has a 14 second cooldown. This means that he needs to:
In this scenario, Graves can get 60 Armor and Magic Resist, which is quite the amount, yes. However, all of the above, combined with real combat, other players, summoner spells, plants, cooldowns etc. make it extremely unlikely for something like that to happen. Even if it were the case, he'd need to have 5~ish seconds to stack this all up. This may not sound like much, but keep in mind that it's either endgame or he maxed his E first (why?). Also, Graves can't do a whole lot if you're not caught out. Having a tank or Support with you makes his chance of killing you a lot harder.
Armor and Magic Resist work in a formula, roughly said to be: 100 / (100+Armor / Magic Resist) = An amount lower than 1 if Armor / Magic Resist is not negative. This formula is very important.
Graves' True Grit gives him 120 Armor and Magic Resist. Putting this in the formula gives this: 100 / (100+120) = 0.4545454545... -> This is the amount of damage he takes: 0.45, or 45% of the 100% damage he'd normally take.
Given Graves would be at lvl. 18, and using the highest winrate build this patch:
(
+ 
+ 
+ 
+ 
+ 
)
Putting these values in the formula, with 8 stacks of True Grit, at max rank, with the items, runes and masteries from the above data, he would have a grand total of:
100 / (100+202.2 Armor) = **0.33090668431 damage from 1,or 33% of the incoming 100%. ** 100 / (100+154.02 Magic Resist) = 0.39366978978 damage from 1, or 39% of incoming 100%.
This sounds like a lot, especially for someone with his burst, but is takes a very specific scenario for this to happen. (Fun Fact: I was a tad lazy whilst doing all the math etc, in all the calculations I did, I assumed Graves to be able to crit. However, with these items, runes and masteries, it would be impossible for him to do just that. Just assume he has 1% crit in his runes, replacing a random, unnecessary one.)
For all these calculations, I have not factored in Lethality, Armor and Magic Penetration. That is also a really important factor to keep in mind, one I won't be bothered to make calculations for.
For my sources, I have to thank: http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Graves (For Graves' statistics), http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Armor & http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_resistance (For respective formula's), http://champion.gg/champion/Graves/Jungle (For Highest winrate build on Graves) and last but not least: My trusty calculator.
Remember, it's all for the sake of Ultimate Hope!
50000000000000001 votesThe armor/MR calculation needs to include the total armor/MR if you want to calculate how much damage is reduced. It doesn't work for calculating marginal benefit.
N Komaeda2 votesIt is in the calculations.
100 / (100+202.2 Armor) and 100 / (100+154.02 Magic Resist) have the total Armor / MR, not just from his E.
50000000000000001 votesOh, didn't see that. You're right.
Ralanr5 votesYou do realize that those E stats are supposed to help him frontline as a close ranged marksman and to reduce those means you have to buff his base stats.
Tranoze18 votesHe has a bust of an assassin (much more than 
), a blind which can nulltify enemy ADC and most of enemy mage, an auto attack that can deal about 200% AD to main target and can hit 100% AD to side target, which apply lifesteal (like you get 3 x from lifesteal)
He is CC immunity (getting stun doesnt lower his DPS since the stun time give him free time to load guns, attack speed slow immunity 
)
If he mean to be close range ADC, it doesnt mean he can be tankier than a juggernault, and when he got his 
he even tankier than rammus.
Ralanr4 votesHe has a bust of an assassin (much more than
If he mean to be close range ADC, it doesnt mean he can be tankier than a juggernault, and when he got his
He's only tankier when in combat. He's much weaker to poke. I wasn't away of stuns reloading his gun for him, that should get removed.
Unlucky4713 votesPoke isn't a viable way to counter a champion. It's like saying cc counters somone. CC counters everyone. Poke will affect every champion and graves still has his e to avoid poke or just reduce the damage from the bullshit amount of stats he gets as a burst adc.
Ralanr4 votesPoke isn't a viable way to counter a champion. It's like saying cc counters somone. CC counters everyone. Poke will affect every champion and graves still has his e to avoid poke or just reduce the damage from the bullshit amount of stats he gets as a burst adc.
CC just hurts some champions more than others, that's why it's considered a counter.
Poke is considered a counter because as long as you can keep out of his range, he can't keep his E up for too long. Harassing him from a far is meant to be his intended weakness.
Unlucky478 votesEven if it's his intended weakness it doesn't transfer into the game well at all. Especially later into the game when he's in the middle of his team poking him isn't really an option. When you can finally get to him, if he's not hard cced for at least 3 seconds, you still won't be able to kill him because he was spamming e throughout the fight.
Like I said in my post, Me, almost 4 full items with one of them being void staff, couldn't even do half of his health when I landed my entire combo. After my stun wore off, he dashed forward and autoed me twice and I was just dead.
The game doesn't and hasn't for a while given graves any reason to consider safety like most adcs would have to do.
PMMEAATROXBUFFS2 votesYeah I don't really understand why he has so much AoE burst when the items he builds: 
and the way his auto's work suggest duelist single target burst. He takes nearly no damage in the jungle because of how easy it is to kite mobs with his passive knockback, and almost just as less from champions... But if it makes you feel any better I did manage to solo kill a fed ass graves with a ward bait on AATROX
Jet Sett5 votesPoke isn't viable? Poke. Is not. Viable. An entire way of playing the game isn't viable when it comes to countering a champion?
You poke 
It doesn't matter
You poke and he has nothing to do if you're actually pressuring him, he's got low range and is actually much squishier than you give him credit for. People blow his stats out of the water and it's honestly infuriating, even more infuriating when people discredit an actual method of defeating a champion as "not viable"
There are "Poke Comps" for a reason, if you're going to turn your back to a genuine method of counterplay then I guess we should just yell at everything rather than learning or playing against it.
Troll for Trump2 votesCounterpicking isn't viable counterplay unless the game is designed for the rock-paper-scissors of champs like in DoTA. League has a few of the counter champs, but they are old and outdated.
Malph and Rammus are anti-AD champs.
Taric's rework let him keep the anti-AD part(more armorstacking, rather than antiAD), but he isn't as good of a hard counter to AD champs as he was before, especially in solo lanes.
Galio's being reworked from anti-mage to generic vanguard.
Kassadin lost his anti-mage identity a while ago
Cho is still anti-mage but really outdated.
Silence was removed on a lot of champs, making them less of a counterpick. Talon was kinda like an Anti-Mage in DoTA when he could still silence his target.
Unlucky471 votespoke isn't viable as a specific counter to a champion. Some characters are more or less effected by poke but it doesn't change the fact that poke still affects them.
Jet Sett1 votesCounterpicking may not be viable, but countering the strengths of a champion is. You might not say poke isn't a viable strategy, but would you also say farming isn't a viable form of getting yourself back into the game? If you're behind you would farm, if the enemy team can be subjected to poke, or your team has good poke, you wouldn't say that poking them before committing to an objective or engaging in a teamfight isn't viable, would you?
You can't put down certain strategies like that when there are champions like 
and 
who excel at these things. Hell, Warmog's is an item that COUNTERS poke, so it isn't just about what champ you are!
Leonerdo2 votesHe has a bust of an assassin
I know what you mean ;) 
LemurKick7 votesI'm all for Graves nerfs, but you're just flat out lying on most of your points.
Unlucky472 votesNo you don't have to buff his base stats to reduce his e stats. He just doesn't need them. With black cleaver and his base health he's tankier than every adc in the game and that already has it's advantages but to give him free health AND tank stats is ridiculous. If they want to give him health they should lower or even remove the tank stats OR lower his health and keep them.
xelaker1 votesYou do realize that those E stats are supposed to help him frontline as a close ranged marksman and to reduce those means you have to buff his base stats.
everywhere you go you say stuff that gets you downvoted lol
probably because its stupid stuff like this.
Ralanr2 votesMeh, I don't care.
BluePolarizer5 votesGraves is the only ADC in the game that Rengar, Kha'Zix, Talon, Zed and Katarina is scared of. If they jump him, he might one shot them first.
GULAG 4 U3 votesI don't like graves too, but you realize he has the lowest range of all ranged champions and he needs to be literally in your asshole in order to deal damage right? His mobility isn't nearly as effective as vaynes neither, so removing his tank stats completely is a bad idea.
LuaDotExe3 votesHe kind of needs those bulk stats, in my opinion, as he's going to be up in front of everybody. Everybody complains about ADCs getting popped in 2017, but taking away his bulk would just push him into the same group with them.
Earl Eulrich2 votesyea, more power to the dmg creep.
i´d rather see him losing some dmg and a lot of his free jungle sustain instead.
Meritas2 votesIt's easy to request removal of a certain mechanic, I want to hear how you plan to compensate him for such a nerf.
cocacolalips3 votesYou don't compensate overpowered champions doe, that's why it's called a nerf.
John Senna11 votesI Think that lowering the Dmg of his R's spread cone, for example, would help a bit.
Romans VI XXIII2 voteslol, thats from like 2 seasons ago, and she wasnt tanky at all. he just NEVER hit any of his spells LOL
Lowgdog1 votesI feel like Graves is hard to really pinpoint. He's pretty unique in the sense that he was geared towards being a jungler/top laner on rework release but now he's essentially just the last ADC champ who can't get flat out bursted by everyone in the game. I think the biggest issue with his damage is the misunderstanding from people that if he crits you, he does a lot more damage. As for tank items, I think these items are to be blamed because of just how good they are. 
Leetri1 votesIsn't the current narrative that it doesn't matter how tanky you are, you still die in under 2 seconds anyway?
