As a Tank Main, I Would Like Stoneplate To Be Changed This Way

Meep Man·Jul 21, 2017·64 votes·2,289 views

Active Changed to "Increases your base health by 40% of your total health, increased to 100% if Stone Skin is active."

The difference is the health granted no longer counts as bonus health, but instead base health in a similar way to how Sterak's Gage grants Base Attack Damage. This will remove the cheese from and and allow the item to be used how it was intended to be used. Potential additional balance changes could be done if Stoneplate, Cho'Gath, or Locket become too weak after the change.

49 Comments

LankPantsJul 22, 201724 votes

As a tank main I'd like to see Stoneplate removed from the game and other tank items be allowed to be decent on their own. I hate Stoneplate, it's the worst idea for a new item Riot has ever come up with regardless of the nuances of its function.

kasfasJul 22, 20179 votes

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQPv3_zz78VGmJDck8pQV71AVjz8E_L_3Sk5G1eJsGlNQJvLv20

NevrankroatonJul 22, 20173 votes

Why? Stoneplate give an interesting niche for tanks that get focused, it has nothing to do with other item being weaker. Riot just don't want a tank item to be too generalist and this item isn't. It is more that it is the most efficient and the combo it allow with other item make it a must buy.

I QJul 23, 20172 votes

All tanks get focused, so all tanks would basically need this. Their job is to soak up damage, and right now no item is better then this at doing that, and honestly no item ever will be.

Legacy HydralphaJul 22, 201720 votes

An indirect nerf to Cho'Gath (well needed, IMO), while keeping the core strength of the item and not ruining other champions using true damage (say from Ignite or a red buff) Great idea.

DragonSheaJul 22, 20175 votes

Another thing Riot needs to do is make sure item 3193 reduced true damage, I don't care what their excuse is. When someone is meant to trade damage for tankiness, there should be no loopholes to exploit.

EschetonJul 22, 20174 votes

Hear hear! 5/7. Perfect score.

Sire HippingtonJul 22, 20173 votes

Why not simply change it to damagereduction instead? 30%(50%vs 3+) damage reduction would result in nearly the exact same boost to survivabillity(30% reduction is very slightly better than 40% increased hp, it also would remain vulnerable to truedamage, but therefor no longer to %hp) than the current effect, and it wouldn't meddle with hp-ratios in any way. On top off that, it would help against lifesteal, which at the current state off the game would be a good thing. It would be a much more clear effect that way, especially fo new players. Gaining total hp as base hp feels just a bit wrong and kinda defies the raw concept of BASE-stat vs BONUS-stat.

Though to be honest, I'd prefer it to loose some overall power or getting removed enttierly and therefor get buffs to other tank items, so getting stonplate isn't mandatory for teamfighting. Even Damage focused champs like Renekton, J4 or Kled have it as a core despite the 60% reduced damage-output duering the active - that is a clear sign that stonplate is either to strong or the alternatives are to weak. I also don't like how it gates any real tankiness into a 4sec window while the damage you need to endure has a 100% uptime(save for most ults)

JarPoop IVJul 22, 20173 votes

% damage reduction is a really troublesome a powerful stat that becomes even more powerful with healing. Also really unsatisfying to use. Just invisible and not fun at all. Also, super abusable by every class which isn't a tank. Gargoyle adding health makes building health required. That's the point.

In addition, one of the main reasons for gargoyle Stoneplate being good is because of health scalings and it's really not that bad on most champs. Main issue is health scaling into damage. Especially when it's true damage.

StandgroundingJul 22, 20174 votes

% damage reduction is a really troublesome a powerful stat that becomes even more powerful with healing.

Though StonePlate active should reduce ALL damage dealt, including true damage, and shouldn't ramp item 3190

JarPoop IVJul 22, 20172 votes

Totally agree. Initially i didn't realise the damage reduction didn't apply to true damage. That totally breaks the item in terms of efficiency. Also technically, Death dance isn't damage reduction, it's just deferred damage. Often shielded or healed off so basically the same. Phantom dancer is the bigger culprit here

StandgroundingJul 22, 20172 votes

They're both combined together + some def item a la item 3156 item 3026 item 3053 or even item 3193 + damage / lifesteal heavy other items to keep you fatter than a 5k hp Garen and about as damaging as Draven.

Oh wait, it is Draven.

JarPoop IVJul 23, 20172 votes

Draven be tankier that half our tanks now a days item 3812 item 3046 item 3072 . Meanwhile, on Riven shielding off that 30%.

(also gargoyle with damage is pretty bad since it reduced your own healing)

StandgroundingJul 23, 20172 votes

Gargoyle is situational I'd say... if you go 1v5 and get CCed you can pop it until a Thresh throws his W for rescue, or Shen ults... plus, without the active, it provides up to 80(!) raw resistances, which is bonkers when added with %dmg reductions and lifesteal...

You don't have to use active to make the item good sometimes.

JarPoop IVJul 23, 20171 votes

This. So true. It's really effective for its cost even without the active In 3+ enemies situation.

Sire HippingtonJul 23, 20171 votes

Gargoyle adding health makes building health required. That's the point.

that's not true at all. Gargoyle giving 100% more hp for 4sec is EXACTLY the same sboost to survivabillity as 50% damage reduction.

For example, a 2k hp target getting hit by 1k damage vs 4khp target getting hit by 1k damage. Normaly, the 2k hp ends with 1khp so 50%, the 4khp ends with 3k so 75% remaining.

With current stoneplate, the 2k becomes a 4k for the duration, so you drop to 75%, and since the %stays after the effect, you end with 75% of 2k = 1.5k hp A 4k becomes 8k, dropping to 7k, so loosing 12.5%, whoch means after the effect ends, he's on 87.5% of 4k = 3500 hp. In both cases, you end up takeing half as much effective damage as without the active, which equals a 50% damage reduction.

So in the end, no matter how much hp you head, the effective damge you've taken once the effect ends is 500, which is 50% of the damage you took duering the effeckt.

The only real difference is the interaction with other effects. The current bonus HP benefits %scaleings, but also is vulnerable to %damage while also beeing a good target for lifesteal(especially %hp based lik BotrK) However, it doesn't benefit flat heals and shields in any way. Damage reuction would meddle with scaleings off the user, which would mean flat healing/shielding would benefite as much as %based heal/shields. It also would cut the lifesteal against the user in half since less damage done = less lifesteal.

So it's in no way 'super abusable', squishys and tanks both get exactly the same effect durabillity boost than the do with the current hp boost, the only potential abuse case would be strong flat shields or heals, so mostly supports keeping a stoneplate target alive. And no, lifesteal on a stoneplate user is no issue at all, because there is still the 60% damage reduction, which means you lifesteal is also reduced by 60%.

I also don't see how the hp-boost is any more visible, power you hardly ever have you eyes on the exact hp value off the tank duering a fight, and other than that number change, it has absolutely no visible effeckt that %reduction wouldn't have.

JarPoop IVJul 23, 20171 votes

Health scalings are more than enough of a difference IMO. Most of the stoneplate users have some form of damage scaling off health as well even if it is in the form of titanic. By having health instead of damage reduction, even despite the 60% self damage reduction, the champion can still dish out some form of damage without being a meat sack. With damage reduction, this additional cushioning damage is gone due to the lack of health to scale the damage for the titanics or the volibear Ws or whatever health scaling damage.

%reduction makes building health not as necessary in the right situations due to making flat Shields and heals double effectiveness. Where as double health basically only makes the Shields that scale off the user more effective(LOCKET OP). In the health version of stoneplate, responsibility lies upon the user to keep himself alive with health scaling Shields and what not. However In the damage reduction version, external factors play into this much much more. This can lead to negative player interactions equivalent to tanks in MMOs with damage reductions not getting heals from a healer. Also, %damage reduction makes the user more vulnerable to true damage compared to health.

When I talk about visibility, it's the frigging 4k hp u get when u pop that stoneplate. In a team fight, (where it has to be anyways. 3+ enemies) you having a 50% reduction without effects similar to the visual and sfx clarity of atleast Alistars ult, makes for very annoying readability issues and can feel misleading.(stoneplate'S activation sound is really soft.) yes it is by no means the biggest problem but just would be nicer. Really just doesn't feel as good as 8000 FRIGGIN HEALTH.

Even if effectively, in situations where only eHealth is involved, the fact that the healthbar doesn't increase makes it wonkier to read the situation.

(also this item is good on j4 almost purely because of his w lining up with the scenarios in which it is SUPER effective and on kled because of skaarls weird double hp.)

Really the best solution is just make the damage reduction reduce true damage too

KuroCaliberJul 22, 20172 votes

Sounds good I rate 8/8

meowwow7Jul 22, 20172 votes

grant i do agree with these changes but not with you being a tank main those champs you've been using aren't quite tanks but bruisers

Meep ManJul 22, 20172 votes

Loosely. Most of them I play more to be just damage sponges that provide slight utility to the team. Few can usually score kills unless they are using some real cheese. I like to refer to all Bruisers that don't really go all out for kills Tanks or at least Off-Tanks.

VoidStaresBackJul 22, 20172 votes

As a Cho'gath main I approve of these changes, that interaction is silly.

BoilTheOilJul 22, 20172 votes

Imo stoneplate should be removed I really just don't the item

AirKingNeoJul 22, 20171 votes

I came up with this first, but regardless just do it.

GodJormungandrJul 22, 20171 votes

Most important thing is,..... Take the -60% damage off.... =.=

Seriously with the nerf of sunfire+thornmail Vanguards doing no shit damage.... this item making them hella useless meat balls... They could just let them do full damage while making this item giving defensive + hp based on how many champs against them should be best solution...

JarPoop IVJul 22, 201711 votes

And then every health scaling dude would become cho gath

INoble KnightIJul 22, 20171 votes

No cause Cho is doing % max health damage and true damage based off health.

JarPoop IVJul 22, 20174 votes

That's not too bad considering the damage gets reduced by 60%. Th e true damage doesn't get reduced

INoble KnightIJul 22, 20172 votes

When Cho does over 2k true damage with ult and obscene max health damage on E it's a bit ridiculous.

NyarlathοtepJul 22, 20171 votes

While its scary seeing a cho deal 2k true dmg you have to keep in mind that he has to reach late game. And be melee range. And pass through the cc your team will throw at him. And your servant (aka your supp) that will most likely item 3190 and many more items to keep the carries alive. Btw if you reach that deep into late game you will have trouble tanking the dmg from the adcs. So yeah you cant afford to really dive to deal 2k true dmg to the enemy carry because you are most likely gonna end up getting cc chained and melted to death.

INoble KnightIJul 23, 20171 votes

Partly true but flash+R is a thing plus with the main damage gone he won't melt that fast cause of immense health.

NyarlathοtepJul 23, 2017

Flash+R has big cd. And its your fault if you are within enemy flash range while enemy chogath is fed, and you are sure that he has flash .

JarPoop IVJul 23, 20171 votes

So screw all melee champs amirite?

NyarlathοtepJul 24, 2017

With that i suppose you mean cho will ulti on melee champs?

JarPoop IVJul 24, 20171 votes

Yea that's what I meant. Realise what I said would have probably been misleading

NyarlathοtepJul 24, 2017

Oke. Anyway back on the topic. Its not like melees will be screwed over. Melee champs are usually beefier than adcs. Some even have defensive steroids, in one shape or other. And even if he still is still strong, riot can give a restriction on his ulti like rek'sai's

JarPoop IVJul 24, 20171 votes

2k true damage feasts would still take most melee champs to atleast half health.

I actually quite like that Mark idea.

NyarlathοtepJul 24, 2017

After doing the calculations ( my god the numbers) i found out that in order to deal 2k true he needs to be in jungle, he needs to have around 17 stacks (which means 17 kills or/and drake-baron) be around 3 enemy champs and ofc activating stoneplate. At this point in a game, the best course of action i can think of is splitpushing. Because then he is indeed a danger to everything but tanks-juggernauts. Bonus points if you have splitpusher champs.

An other thing they could do to his ulti is to give it some kind of cast time, because right now its i think instant? I mean even some other so called instant skills (like annies ulti) have a tiny cast time. Though that mind increase his chunclkiness (i spelled it wrong i know sry) .

JarPoop IVJul 23, 20172 votes

the true damage is obscene because it doesn't get reduced. the max health damage on e DOES get reduced by the 60%

PB4UAMEJul 23, 20171 votes

E doesn't have true damage?

JarPoop IVJul 23, 20171 votes

E is percent max health magic damage that scales to enemy health and feast stacks. It gets damage reduction from the activation of stoneplate

ItsbeghdevJul 22, 20175 votes

Vanguards still have, y'know, initiation. And it's not like they're being forced to use Stoneplate's active anyhow, it's just a good idea a lot of the time.

Guess who really cares about the damage though? Juggernauts and divers. Some already build it (Darius who hardly does damage without 5 stacks anyhow, Jarvan who's basically played like a tank when he's not building lethality) and it works on them despite the damage reduction... so imagine how horrible it would be if, say, Garen or Aatrox could pop Stoneplate without losing damage by doing so. Really, there's no tradeoff for the intended champions unless they happen to need to be doing significant damage in which case they should simply do without it.

JarPoop IVJul 23, 20172 votes

Funny thing, I don't think darius 's ult is affected by the damage reduction. Once he gets 5 stacks he can just go around auto+dunking people.

ItsbeghdevJul 26, 20171 votes

Oh yeah, that too, lol. He doesn't even need to wait until Stoneplate wears off to start using the five stacks he popped it to get, hah.