Because she's sitting on 3k health at 18 minutes, and the only item that can help me deal with this gives absolutely no benefit against her health stacking until I invest the full 3100 gold.
And isn't viable on my champion, regardless.
Can we please do something about how hard AP carries are fucked over by health stacking?
ModWulf Helhammer3 votesThe first and only thing you have to realize (and I am amazed that myself an unranked player in mid-silver elo has to tell a plat 3 this, but also not because it's you): with the exception of a few specific champions in the class, AP ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BEAT TANKS!!
You do burst damage. You want to know the one absolutely surefire thing that beats burst damage? Health. Want to know the main core stat on a tank? Health, again. So when you put those facts together, you get the fact that you aren't going to be killing them as an AP champion unless you are someone like Azir, Ryze, or Cass, who all deal DPS style damage.
Kapeesh?
meowwow71 votesi would like to add on resistance with that hp as a tank's main attributes since people think having a high amount of hp saves you from the max hp dmg on galio's q
ModWulf Helhammer1 votesWell, yes.
That's why I specified "main" stat, because if all you do is build armor and MR, you're still going to die really easily because there's no health pool for those resistances to support.
Talinis1 votesThe first and only thing you have to realize (and I am amazed that myself an unranked player in mid-silver elo has to tell a plat 3 this, but also not because it's you): with the exception of a few specific champions in the class, AP ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BEAT TANKS!!
You do burst damage. You want to know the one absolutely surefire thing that beats burst damage? Health. Want to know the main core stat on a tank? Health, again. So when you put those facts together, you get the fact that you aren't going to be killing them as an AP champion unless you are someone like Azir, Ryze, or Cass, who all deal DPS style damage.
Kapeesh?
The problem is if ADC are supposed to beat tanks, why are they killing the squishes as well in less than half a second, something seems very off. ADC need a very huge tone down in up front damage and need steady, ramping damage that will kill sturdier targets overtime. Then we can have a tone down of other champions so that it isn't who kills who within .000001 seconds or loses. I agree burst mages shouldn't kill tanks but the problem is that burst mages aren't beating their intended targets, ADCS and supports because of how broken the classes are overall and it leaves no room for counterplay (you throw entire combo instantly and kill them, (think annie) or you lose).
ModWulf Helhammer2 votesI'm not talking about ADCs here in the slightest in my comment, and yours demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding about damage archetypes.
It's DPS that kills tanks, just plain simple damage per second. But turn that same amount of damage to something with less durability and it's going to die faster. That's why DPS mages have always been among the strongest APs in pro play.
You can take a stake knife to a wood wall, and eventually it'll go down. Take that same knife to a paper screen door, and it's going to get ripped to pieces
Talinis1 votesI'm not talking about ADCs here in the slightest in my comment, and yours demonstrates a fundamental lack of understanding about damage archetypes.
It's DPS that kills tanks, just plain simple damage per second. But turn that same amount of damage to something with less durability and it's going to die faster. That's why DPS mages have always been among the strongest APs in pro play.
You can take a stake knife to a wood wall, and eventually it'll go down. Take that same knife to a paper screen door, and it's going to get ripped to pieces
You also demonstrate a very basic understanding of how current league is run. Squishier targets such as mages and assassins would always have a major upper hand against a ranged DPS. Assassins would just outright assassinate ADCs and most mages with no counterplay on the dps' part and a mage would be able to wall of ranged projectiles and burst the squishy.
However, currently, because of how broken defensive items like death's dance, GA, QSS and others are, the archetype is not working period. IF riot wants to have all this counterplay ability in league and allow DPS the ability to strike back, then they need a large tone down of damage so there is the ability to play and counterplay without getting instantly killed.
If one archetype (adc) is allowed to run rampant and kill everything, then the OP has a point that mages should be allowed to also do everything and the same with every archetype. It is not even remotely fair to say that ADC should have a chance to beat every class but that a mage should never have the ability to kill bruisers/tanks because it's outside the archetype. And what's worse, why is an archetype that is supposed to be very squishy, have massive healing and tons of defensive options.
And just for the record about archetypes. The assassin would just dodge and smoke screen and use tools to avoid getting hit and like I said, mages have shield spells to block projectiles. It is actually VERY, VERY common knowledge among RPG players that ranged physical champions lose to mages and you have to have fighters or assassins to get in close. So no, ADCS should not instantly burst them.
What should happen in league is mages get an item that absorbs ranged physical damage. Maw and QSS should be melee items only and ga should be removed from the archetype since it is a divine intervention type item and most of the adcs are far from being able to utilize an item like that. It would be better suited on supports like Leona, soraka etc for archetypes. But meh counterplay so instead a tone down of damage would work for how Riot wants their game.
PhDs Nuts1 votesIf one archetype (adc) is allowed to run rampant and kill everything, then the OP has a point that mages should be allowed to also do everything and the same with every archetype. It is not even remotely fair to say that ADC should have a chance to beat every class but that a mage should never have the ability to kill bruisers/tanks because it's outside the archetype. And what's worse, why is an archetype that is supposed to be very squishy, have massive healing and tons of defensive options.
ADCs aren't running rampant and killing everything. They're running around with their support.
Ralanr1 votesBase defenses are outscaled by base damage.
It doesn’t take much to kill a squishy. That’s why they are squishy. It’s also why they are recommended items like BT or Bork so they get sustain from their main damage source, allowing them to take more damage than they should so long as they keep attacking. That’s why they are weak to burst because it’s possible they die before they can get health back.
Talinis1 votesBase defenses are outscaled by base damage.
It doesn’t take much to kill a squishy. That’s why they are squishy. It’s also why they are recommended items like BT or Bork so they get sustain from their main damage source, allowing them to take more damage than they should so long as they keep attacking. That’s why they are weak to burst because it’s possible they die before they can get health back.
They are not so squishy when they have GA, death's dance, QSS and maw available. If it was just life steal it would be fine but the class has defensive tools they shouldn't have. Range and kiting should be their defense, like caitlyn and her traps, trist and her jumps and knock back. Not face tanking a full combo and still living. Twitch would be balanced if he just jumped from stealth and unloaded and could be instantly taken down. Instead, he jumps from stealth, can melt a team within 1 second but if someone jumps him he won't die. That isn't balanced. It's broken.
Hey I get it, people don't want to just instantly die without being able to do anything and thus the more recent changes to assassins and items. But that also means in order for the game to be balanced around that, ADCS sustain damage would need a large tone down so that instant 100 - 0 burst isn't required to win. Right now it is and why the game is in such a poor state because other classes were brought down to prevent that needed scenario from happening.
Martyrofsand1 votes{quoted} AP ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BEAT TANKS!!
idk I have pretty good success against tanks as Cassio/Brand/Malz. Most AP's have trouble but there are some who actually do pretty good at dealing with tanks for one reason or another.
ModWulf Helhammer2 votesThe whole line is:
with the exception of a few specific champions in the class, AP ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BEAT TANKS!!
Added emphasis to the part you missed. DoT mages in League fall closer to DPS style damage, and Cass herself is a DPS mage
Martyrofsand1 votesKayle/Azir/Zyra/Heimer are also some others that are pretty decent at killing tanks none of which are DoT style. I'll grant I missed your first comment but I don't feel it is as much of an exception for mages to kill tanks as you might think.
ModWulf Helhammer1 votesAzir is mentioned in my original comment
And again, you are missing the point that I say DPS mages. Most mages are not DPS style (and even two of yours are borderline, as they require you to stay in a specific area to utilize that DPS)
PhDs Nuts1 votesYou're Twisted Fate, and Sejuani had 4 kills before you did.
Yenn1 votesYou're Twisted Fate, and Sejuani had 6 kills.
The champion doesn't matter, the exact same thing happens to every AP carry. It takes 3-4 full rotations on a usually 6+ second cooldown for any AP carry to kill a two item tank while building glass cannon, and said tank can likely kill them in 4-5 seconds.
Meanwhile, AD champions can counter this with a 1000 gold item.
The state of AP itemization is unacceptable.
PhDs Nuts2 votesThe champion doesn't matter, the exact same thing happens to every AP carry. It takes 3-4 full rotations on a usually 6+ second cooldown for any AP carry to kill a two item tank while building glass cannon, and said tank can likely kill them in 4-5 seconds.
The champion absolutely matters. Twisted Fate is destroyed by health stackers because he's a burst champion (unless built on-hit). Especially health stackers that are more fed than him. Syndra, Kassadin, Anivia, Annie, and others would have been fine in that situation because of how they deal damage. TF is a late game AP carry. Sejuani is a mid game monster.
Yenn1 votesThe champion absolutely matters. Twisted Fate is destroyed by health stackers because he's a burst champion (unless built on-hit). Especially health stackers that are more fed than him. Syndra, Kassadin, Anivia, Annie, and others would have been fine in that situation because of how they deal damage. TF is a late game AP carry. Sejuani is a mid game monster.
I main Vel'koz and Ziggs. Both are stronger than everything you listed against tanks, and they still cannot deal with a Cinderhulk + Warmogs rush. And this still doesn't address how terrible the itemization to counter this is.
PhDs Nuts1 votesI main Vel'koz and Ziggs. Both are stronger than everything you listed against tanks, and they still cannot deal with a Cinderhulk + Warmogs rush. And this still doesn't address how terrible the itemization to counter this is.
None of them can deal with that rush if their first item is Rod of Ages and the fight happens right after they buy it.
Yenn1 votesNone of them can deal with that rush if their first item is Rod of Ages and the fight happens right after they buy it.
I had Sheen and Needlessly Large Rod before I built RoA, to keep my advantage.
But you're completely ignoring the fact that I have the same problem on both Ziggs and Vel'koz, where my first items are Morello and Luden's.
TerranHybrid1 votesYou're completely ignoring Machine Gunners too. You aren't innocent of "Selective Omission".
Ryze handles these types well because of his nature. Twisted Fate will struggle for the same reason.
Sej's win condition is getting on you. Without a reliable stopper (CC) or an easy escape in your kit, Sej can do fairly this easily and take a crap on you. It is exactly what she is built to do to mages and even carries before they have armor pen, % Health damage, lifesteal and all that other BS.
LadyRenly1 votesits not so bad, depending on the champs. like maybe brand and veigar. different ap carries do different things.
Dasdi961 votesPlay 
Buy 
Keep your bear on her and watch her hp melt because she has no mr.
Gigglingdeath1 votes 
Watch them melt
Yenn1 votes
Watch them melt
How often do you have Liandry's, Void Staff, and Morello at 17 minutes?
PhDs Nuts2 votesHow often do you have Liandry's, Void Staff, and Morello at 17 minutes?
Exactly. It was 17 minutes and you were Twisted Fate. You're not supposed to beat a Sejuani that's ahead of you. She also had a completed Cinderhulk and Null Magic Mantle. You had a Rod of Ages that hadn't begun stacking yet and a Sheen with T1 boots.
Gigglingdeath1 votesI meant more, any of those will help you. Morellos helps stop the healing factor if you chase her down. Liandries has a beautiful burn, and I've seen some people build void straight up because they ain't no bitch. Any of those will help you melt her. However, as others have pointed out, you were playing tf, who absolutely is atrocious for melting sej. I play orianna, and morellos/liandries (either or) would help me probably easily get her to half health with a full combo. Tf just isn't really designed for melting tanks, more for saying "lel l8r nerds" to squishes.
Mysticman891 votesOh sure you can do something. Roam bot, help your primary tank buster in the form of adc get fed, and marvel at the power of friendship teamwork.