In response to Stattik, on Rengar

KnifeCat·May 24, 2017·46 votes·3,767 views

Statikk on Rengar: "He seems to be in a stable-ish spot, so I wouldn't read too much into this "re-categorization." If Rengar continues to prove that he is healthy in his current state, there will be no need to make any adjustments to the way he is now."

Honestly, what the heck, "stable-ish"???? after SEVERAL nerfs that his win rate is down to 46%??? yeah any champ that's repeatedly nerfed into that win rate would be "stable-ish" lol.

Besides that, Rito completely ignoring the fact that Rengar no longer fits his theme as a hunter, that his kit is useless as an assassin, and that the only way his current kit is any good, is because it has an insane amount of FREE dmg (free crit, passive) to make up for how butchered and shit the rest of his kit is !!

his R completely counters him and offers WAY too much counterplay.

His Q is stupid.

His W is better suited for a tankier champ.

His ferocity system is no longer fun and takes away a good amount of skill that a player needed when it came to managing ferocity.

But nah he's in a "stable-ish" spot at 46% win rate, he's definitely healthy and in need of no changes. 👍🏼

67 Comments

DreadlocksMay 24, 201716 votes

Sorry if i'm speaking for someone who disagrees.. But i'm pretty sure that every old Rengar main/1trick prefers the old Rengar far more... I'd say Riot missed the mark by a LOOOOONG shot on this one.. The champion scales better with health than AD right now lol.

subhuman team XDMay 24, 20176 votes

ofc we do , im 100% sure that if you played old rengar (when he was gutted in 6.8 i believe) he was an EXTREMLY high risk high reward champ , either you snowball REALLY hard and carry the game , or be useless the entire gamelong no matter what , and to be quite frank , back then old rengar was very useless in high elo (diamond+) because all they had to do was place pinks to reveal him if he was nearby and also group against him and siege because if he got cc'd just once he was dead thats how easy to counter rengar was , but in terms of skill old rengar was way more skillful than this one and also WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY more fun to play than this one and he was the only champion that gave a certain feeling to any player (thrill and exitement when you press Q and R) now hes a huge joke as you can clearly see this is why i dumped him and switched to darius and khazix/ww cause those 3 are now the replacement of old rengar to me :/

DreadlocksMay 25, 20175 votes

Take me back to the time before his E had a cast animation.. That is when i enjoyed playing Rengar the most.. The feeling of landing that bola mid air felt so good..

BaconIsRengarMay 25, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ńø Çígâr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QvccgZ5U,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-05-24T23:32:14.944+0000)

Sorry if i'm speaking for someone who disagrees.. But i'm pretty sure that every old Rengar main/1trick prefers the old Rengar far more... I'd say Riot missed the mark by a LOOOOONG shot on this one.. The champion scales better with health than AD right now lol.

I remember how cheated i felt when i saw the ww rework and saw how cool his hunting aspect was compared to what rengar got. feelsbadman

Pierce The VealMay 31, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ńø Çígâr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QvccgZ5U,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2017-05-24T23:32:14.944+0000)

Sorry if i'm speaking for someone who disagrees.. But i'm pretty sure that every old Rengar main/1trick prefers the old Rengar far more... I'd say Riot missed the mark by a LOOOOONG shot on this one.. The champion scales better with health than AD right now lol.

Same as Akali atm. Thank ricklessabandon, the guy who is also the reason why leblanc started buying lichbane and gunblade lmao.

DreadlocksMay 31, 20171 votes

Akali really didnt change that much..

Pierce The VealJun 2, 20171 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ńø Çígâr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QvccgZ5U,comment-id=000000030000,timestamp=2017-05-31T23:57:43.385+0000)

Akali really didnt change that much..

Sure, losing spell vamp and bonus damage from passive in exchange for a 2 hit passive, can't place w as you want, and ult now has a solid 2 seconds between uses.

She changed a LOT. Still does same thing, just clunkier, and more annoying to face.

DreadlocksJun 3, 20171 votes

Playing new akali isn't that much different... her items are pretty much the same, her job is the same her abilities pretty much function the same (except w is a little different)..

Rengar is way different.. he went from being a 1 shotting nightmare to a tanky diver.. And don't get me started on "clunkier" cuz Rengar wins that comparison too.

Eternal TormentMay 25, 201715 votes

I said it once in a comment and i will be happy to say it again on this post

Riot makes many good improvements, changes and balances that we Players are happy about.

the assassin rework however is gutted

4 big changes, 6 small ones. and half of them are failures.

fizz got a rework, tank build's still kicking around

shaco is Build as a bruiser with triforce

rengar is reclassified as a fighter and Leblanc as a mage

and akali feels forgotten as a champion just like kassadin did at the beginning of Season 6.

lethality went out of control and itemchanges have been proven unhealthy for almost a year long now.

Before the rework, assassins may not have had a window of opportunity to be countered, but JUST to have that they gutted half of their entire goal quite literally. rengar is sitting at an disasterous place and has become even harder to balance than before his rework, Leblanc despite finally having done it right and focused the damage on the sigil has however suffered so hard in the damage Terms that she is considered a meme and a joke now, and fizz now makes people cry WITHOUT killing them even.

if you ask me, riot could have just made smaller updates. the main Problem with pre-rework rengar was his full crit Build and his ultimate being too hard to Play against. simply give him the Camille treat. make his Q unable to crit but raise the scalings a bit or even give it a pure full ad scaling like with darius' W, remove his W heal aspect but give it something else to go with, maybe make it a 0.5 second fear? and Keep his ult the way it is now and slap onto him a mix of pre-rework and post-rework bonetooth. maybe something that gives him just slightly more AD but boosts his skills instead, maybe at a certain amount of bonetooth stacks you get increased ad scalings on Q, at another number your W will fear longer, i haven't thought it through yet but as he stands now he is really NOT stable nor ok.

as for Leblanc, i would say give distortion back SOME of it's power and make her passive stronger, maybe shorten the charge delay from 1.5 to 1 second.

as for fizz, they at least started working on that one, so one good Thing at least.

shaco idk what else to say, old shaco was perfectly fine.

akali's passive is her issue, making it a two-hit passive with the damage being the last of the two hits feels so.....unfitting. when she Q's R's and then AA's you and instead of achieving the burst she was meant to have she rather gets sustain the target probably procs or gets something to defend him vs her passive's second hit, which delivers the damage and survives in many cases.

AND HER E STILL DOESNT FIT HER KIT!

long story short, riot messed up assassins bad enough that anyone with descriptive Analysis could write a book at the size of the old testament JUST describing what went wrong. they Need to rethink what they did and possibly consider the revert of at least rengar, while keeping small changes of his rework in his kit.

DreadlocksMay 25, 20172 votes

rengar was his full crit Build and his ultimate being too hard to Play against. simply give him the Camille treat. make his Q unable to crit but raise the scalings a bit or even give it a pure full ad scaling like with darius' W, remove his W heal aspect but give it something else to go with, maybe make it a 0.5 second fear? and ~~Keep his ult the way it is now~~ and slap onto him a mix of pre-rework and post-rework bonetooth. maybe something that gives him just slightly more AD but boosts his skills instead, maybe at a certain amount of bonetooth stacks you get increased ad scalings on Q, at another number your W will fear longer, i haven't thought it through yet but as he stands now he is really NOT stable nor ok.

Riot won't do this, even if every Rengar player asked for it.

Eternal TormentMay 25, 20171 votes

they will have to do something, they created this dead end where it is either break the wall or go back, but they can't ever even hope to Keep rengar the way he is now.

DreadlocksMay 25, 20171 votes

Theyre going to try to.

Eternal TormentMay 25, 20172 votes

i'm almost scared to find out how. i mean we did give them a chance to fix rengar and well...can't say that anyone is satisfied. i am not looking Forward to what they have in store for rengar to be honest.

DreadlocksMay 25, 20171 votes

I am.. Id rather they kept trying than leave him in the dirt. And i never wanted old rengar to be "fixed" >.>

Eternal TormentMay 25, 20171 votes

same here. rengar's only issue pre-rework was the lack of counterplay you had for his ult because of how late it shows that he is nearby. aside from that he was more or less good. a Little bit overloaded from the Q Steroids but good.

DreadlocksMay 25, 20172 votes

I think he was good at what he did, now they've just generalized him.

I miss herMay 25, 20171 votes

Actually I think pre-rework Rengar's issues were mostly his insane mix of DPS and burst. It's true that most players complained about his 1shots but that's not what actually made him strong. There were a few main issues with him imo that needed to be fixed (Riot did actually fix most of them but either by adding new ones or by simply fucking some parts of his kit) ⇒ The AS and AD steroid from his Q made him way too good at dueling and gave him way too much DPS (especially with the high AS from the crit items). I'd remove both of them. ⇒ Remove his ability to use emp E mid-air. Having a high burst assassin be able to jump out of stealth and snare you while killing you in less than a second is certainly unhealthy. Give his empowered E a 0.35-0.4s delay if used mid-air. Make his normal E mid-air delay 0.1s (lower than previously) ⇒ Remove the crit from Q, give it around 150% AD scaling and 200% for empowered ⇒ Make ult camouflage

TheThrillOfHuntMay 25, 20172 votes

Rengar's crit build wasn't problem tbh, it was just the fact that he could burst you from true stealth. And his sustain damage wasn't a real problem since at this time, he didn't have any cleanse stuff or whatever, meaning that Cc would shut him down very easily.

Also, for critgar, you built full glasscanon, unlike the actual "assassin" builds with cleaver, Ga, edge of night and tabis, and sometimes death dance or dead man's plate. Assassins are now tanky, critgar isn't. Also, one armor item would fuck critgar up since he hadn't any %arpen with the build. And with the new GA, getting armor isn't really an issue if an adc wants to build damage

DreadlocksMay 25, 20171 votes

item 1412 item 3158 item 3142 item 3046 item 3031 item 3087 most popular build for a good reason.. his Q pretty much garunteed a kill when he ulti'd. Wasnt the build i always used.. but it was the most common one.

Dusk Mane RengarMay 25, 20176 votes

Wrong, that was most popular build cause NB3.

The best Rengar build always had Hydra on it.

DreadlocksMay 25, 20171 votes

No1 went hydra unless they were top lane.. Nb3 or not. It wasnt popular in thr jungle

Dusk Mane RengarMay 25, 20174 votes

No1 went hydra unless they were top lane

U gotta be kidding lol

ARAM Account 2May 28, 20174 votes

god hes mental or smth he has clearly no clue of rengar the old or new one or league of legends

ShadowrududeMay 25, 20173 votes

[{quoted}](name=Ńø Çígâr,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QvccgZ5U,comment-id=00020002000000000000,timestamp=2017-05-25T21:10:12.302+0000)

No1 went hydra unless they were top lane.. Nb3 or not. It wasnt popular in thr jungle

LMFAO where are you coming from? Hydra was CORE on Rengar Top and Jungle, fuck TIAMAT was core, you could just sit on that and not be hurt too much waiting to upgrade it. It made your clear WAY better, both jungle and wave, and gave you another AD scaling to slap them with upfront.

ARAM Account 2May 28, 20171 votes

nice what elo are u ? bronze 4 or 3?

DreadlocksMay 29, 20171 votes

Original

DemoniMay 29, 20171 votes

I'm not going to be a dick like other people but tiamat was built +95% of the time if you were a good Rengar jungle, it was often built before finishing jungle item because it greatly boosted clear speed and burst potential. Often bought before smite upgrade too if one had gold for it. (Not in the heal smite meta though)

Usually:

Machete -> enchantment / tiamat -> jungle item -> youmuus -> PD / IE / LW / finish hydra (in the order you want)

Sometimes when super fed you would not even finish the jungle item and went straight for youmuu + crit instead

Enchantment / tiamat -> youmu -> PD / IE / PD / LW

I often changed the way how I built though. As jungle it was weird to balance AD + crit cause of the gold you had to spent on jungle items and core items.

Exhaust top kat with item 3142 item 3074 item 3031 item 3035 item 3046 was bae

Smurf game throwback in teambuilder

https://gyazo.com/93c2bcdb851aecb3ab2e9e7fc0a29bd1

DreadlocksMay 29, 20171 votes

I'm not really debating though lol I'm simply stating facts pulled from Champion.gg whether people choose to believe it or not is their own issue.

Top people built tiamat, jungle far less common.

DemoniOct 10, 20171 votes

Can't believe I'm answering to this so late. Top laners did build tiamat too but stats yoomu gave were way too good so tiamat was done only after.

In jungle high elo rengar's rushed it very often to speed up clear with the AoE and add the tiamat activate damage when going in for assasination / fight.

DreadlocksNov 5, 20171 votes

Eh whats it matter, Rengar is ruined.

TheThrillOfHuntMay 31, 20171 votes

You are a fucking living joke, hydra was Reng'ars core, NB3 was just unable to use it properly with his lack of mechanical coordination.

And also, 1 armor item would fuck critgar up, so stop acting like you knew shit

DreadlocksMay 31, 20171 votes

I seriously dont give FKKKKKKKKKKKKKKKK what you think about me.. The information was accessible to EVERYONE on Champion.gg Don't hate the messenger.

TheThrillOfHuntJun 1, 20171 votes

That wasn't the build used by true mains, it was the build used by people who didn't know how to play Rengar properly with his combos

DreadlocksJun 1, 20171 votes

Which is completely a different debate which I would tend to agree with.

SirLapseMay 25, 20173 votes

Akali still functions and after they made buffs onto her, she ended being a lot healthier in terms of fighting against her while still maintaining her power in trades and general versatility as a champion. She's not braindead easy to play anymore either, but some people might say that she's harder to play because she's worse. I'm not going to fight that, but then you have to compare yourself to higher skill players who have actually overcome that barrier. Akali players with her E have used it to their advantage vs. enemy itemization, that's what mixed damage allows you to do.

Rengar after his changes became way too good in pro play, and nobody I've seen talk about him ever focuses on that issue. They think simple changes will be enough when he is far too good at teamfighting despite people saying he should be an assassin. Assassins aren't meant to be good at teamfighting unless really ahead. That being said, you're saying to buff Leblanc while blatantly ignoring why she was a problem. She's still jesus right now with Gunblade-based builds, and anyone still using Morello on her will automatically get destroyed.

Fizz/Shaco followed the rule of "if you've got enough base damage, you don't need pure damage items." Riot still has a habit of forgetting this until hindsight kicks in. These champions still succeeded at smashing right after their reworks, and Shaco's nerf to his passive in particular made him a lot wonkier to play. It still made him much better for fighting later into the game compared to before where it was all-or-nothing early game.

Lethality is pretty balanced for where it's at now so I can't agree on that bit at all. Just because it took a while to balance doesn't mean it's somehow not balanced atm. Lethality ADCs in particular are the ones most hurt by all those nerfs, and things like Talon/Kha'Zix still use Lethality whenever they feel it is usable. It was a stat meant to be bad against tanks and tankier targets, and so as tanks/shielders/healers keep coming into the meta, Lethality will always get worse. Situational =/= unusable however.

Riot had some successes, they had some failures. Same could be said for every rework. Talon was a major success, Katarina is a lot cooler to play and isn't useless pre-6, stuff like Kha'Zix finally got worked back into the meta after being dead for so long, tank Ekko received yet another hit (not really much of a rework but meh), and Zed became much more based around killing the ADC. Stealth also became much less of an issue, with stuff like Evelynn standing out because they always have. These are really important to note past the issues that we did have. There's no reason to lopside the argument to be entirely negative when the basis of it is hiding the positives.

subhuman team XDMay 24, 20176 votes

doesnt matter , riot will not do anything about him , hes a joke now he use to be one of the greatest champions of all time because of his lore/theme and ingame kit now only his lore exists everything else is gone with this ~~assassin~~ failed rework , he use to mean something before he got reworked he use to be really fun to play and exiting in terms of how the player would feel when he plays that champion now hes just a champion i use to know.

May your soul rest in peace Rengar , R.I.P 2012-2016 you will be missed

#MakeRengarGreatAgain

DreadlocksMay 24, 201715 votes

Yeah sadly I think riot takes the wrong approach in a lot of things.. Some of the champions the community hates the most is what makes players feel a passion with the game.. If champions like LeeSin Riven Yasuo Zed Vayne Irelia were to have as shitty of a rework as Rengar.. i'm pretty sure Riot would lose A LOTTTTTTTTTTTTT of players..

(inb4 boards downvote me cuz they hate these champions)

BoilTheOilMay 25, 20171 votes

i dont see whats wrong with zed

DemoniMay 29, 20171 votes

He meant that if all those (or some) champions received an awful rework that would make players hate them, Riot would lose a lot of players that genuinely enjoyed their old , current kits.

ShadowrududeMay 25, 20175 votes

I NEVER log into the boards and post, but I felt the need to post in this one. Rengar is actually in such a bad spot, as so many people have already stated and summarized, that a revert like Kog'Maw's is really the only way to go. I had HUGE respect for Riot in admitting that they REALLY fucked up with the Koggles rework and actually having the balls to do one of the few reverts I've seen in the 4+ years I've been playing. If they have ANY respect for Rengar players they'll do that for Rengar, maybe giving us a hybrid of his new Bonetooth cuz it's probably the only thing I can say was nice about the rework, but obviously I can't see them letting him have such insane numbers on his old kit for balance reasons. I mean, I thought the bola change was annoying back in the day, but JESUS the rework and subsequent gutting makes me feel so frustrated. I can't clear the jungle in a healthy manner, my ganks don't pack enough of a punch cuz of all the damage he has to ramp up, and I can't even take him top lane cuz all of the REAL Fighters just absorb my laughable damage and rip me to shreds. The CC cleanse and immunity on the W was absolutely ridiculous, and belongs on a fighters kit, not a one-shot assassins, and he has to have his numbers be ridiculous via his Bonetooth and the free crit on his ult to make up for how weak the kit itself is. Old Rengar even had a variety of ability combos based on what situations you were in, while New Rengar is ACTUALLY brainless. I can't remember the last time I didn't have to use the empowered W combo cuz even with an empowered Q combo I can't kill the feeding Kog'maw in one go, and his ult gives the enemy team SO MUCH counterplay that there isn't any room for you to actually "Play" to begin with. As it was I felt the old ulti simply had too short an indicator range, and if the team had a bit more time to communicate once you popped your ult and group it could have been better. Hell, I don`t even mind the new Camo mechanic cuz it's a respectable form of counterplay, I shouldn't be able to stand right between two people without them noticing. I know nobody is gonna read this long ass wall of text, especially Riot, but I just wanted to actually get my voice out there for once about a champion that actually got me into the game and kept me here for the entirety of my time playing League. I hope someone at Riot sees this and counts this as another vote on the "Revert Rengar Petition", cuz it's actually heartbreaking to see what they've done to not just MY champion, but OUR champion. RIP Rengar item 3070 item 3073 Rengar

N3mO06May 25, 20174 votes

You guys are still playing Rengar and this is what you got. You should stop playing him and let drop his pick rate into oblivion, so maybe the smart Stattik will understand that none likes Rengar gameplay. The problem here is that Rengar is no more an assassin and the problem is not his scaling, but his kit, just look at his ultimate, it is the worst ultimate of the game after pantheon's one.... The main problem is his inconstancy: if the enemy walks toward you during your jump, you are gonna miss your rotation; r is litterally playing against you in a way in which several times is better avoid to use it; w still miss the sense, it's broken but not for an assassin and still I can't understand why I should waste it if I want to do a rotation after going in. I used to play Rengar from the release and I realize that playing him in this state will just make riot fell like everything is good, but it's not. I AM NOT HAPPY WITH RENGAR CHANGE (expecially q, old one is better) AND I 'LL NOT WASTE OTHER TIME AND MONEY IN THIS GAME. I'm sure many have bought the new rengar's chroma pack, bhe guys, was a mistake....it was like: well rito you are doing good, take my money!.

GULAG 4 UMay 25, 20173 votes

The problem with old rengar was he had borderline no counterplay other than praying to Yogg Saaron that your support has 200 IQ?

KnifeCatMay 25, 20173 votes

Except old Rengar had tons of counterplay, like pink wards, + enemy still got an indicator ahead of time (except that indicator was actually fair for Rengar unlike the current one), not to mention he was squishy with no escape and sucked in team fights, so it was all or nothing when he jumped in. Also he had to be really fed to instantly burst someone.. and if he wasn't he was barely a threat.

Old Rengar was far more balanced..

GULAG 4 UMay 25, 20173 votes

How is the indicator less fair?

Current rengar also doesn't have any escape enither.

Only being able to do your job if you are very fed isn't a good thing.

KnifeCatMay 25, 20173 votes

{quoted}

How is the indicator less fair?

Current rengar also doesn't have any escape enither.

Only being able to do your job if you are very fed isn't a good thing.

Pretty sure a cleanse + %heath heal, + being tanky makes it much easier for him to escape.

How's it less fair ? because enemies know you're coming from miles away... i wouldn't have minded if they simply increased the range of the old indicator.. By double the range even, but not by half the map lol that is insane. His ult is literally a twitch or Shaco Q or Eve passive except with insane counterplay on it.

Also you can no longer see all of your opponents when you ult, so you can easily bait yourself into an ambush if you try to "hunt" anyone down.

There's WAY too much counterplay. This makes going bruiser/tanky and using ult to zone/teamfight the only viable playstyle. Which contradicts Rengar's theme of being a "hunter"

TheThrillOfHuntMay 25, 20171 votes

1 armor item would fuck old Rengar up and he had to be ahead to oneshot you. He had no cleanse and no AOE damage.

Now, you basically oneshot someone if you're even in terms of golds and levels, it even works when a bit behind. And if you're ahead, armor is useless against him. So yeah, old Rengar had more counterplay, sorry for you

N3mO06May 25, 20172 votes

{quoted}

1 armor item would fuck old Rengar up and he had to be ahead to oneshot you. He had no cleanse and no AOE damage.

Now, you basically oneshot someone if you're even in terms of golds and levels, it even works when a bit behind. And if you're ahead, armor is useless against him. So yeah, old Rengar had more counterplay, sorry for you

I really don't think oneshot with old rengar would be possible with these 'new' items item 3047 item 3102 item 3026 item 3046 item 3812 item 3190 being so popular

BlakiepugMay 25, 20173 votes

Man, I hate that Riot just ruins champions like this without any regard for that champion's player base. I can't speak on actual statistics, but from my own experience Rengar has been picked consistently less and less ever since his rework. Before the rework, Rengar was a semi-common pick that I saw quite often. But now, I see a Rengar like once every 2-3 months. It feels like hardly anybody plays this champion anymore. How is that a success? They legit just dumpster so many champions like they did to Azir that it's not even funny. Maybe if Rengar's pre-rework state didn't have to be dumpstered by the balance team, maybe that's a sign that it was a more healthy playstyle for the game.

N3mO06May 25, 20173 votes

{quoted}

Man, I hate that Riot just ruins champions like this without any regard for that champion's player base. I can't speak on actual statistics, but from my own experience Rengar has been picked consistently less and less ever since his rework. Before the rework, Rengar was a semi-common pick that I saw quite often. But now, I see a Rengar like once every 2-3 months. It feels like hardly anybody plays this champion anymore. How is that a success? They legit just dumpster so many champions like they did to Azir that it's not even funny. Maybe if Rengar's pre-rework state didn't have to be dumpstered by the balance team, maybe that's a sign that it was a more healthy playstyle for the game.

If you see Rengar a common pick again with this kit, it's because they buffed his number to be idiot-proof and this is a shit design. This is why now rengar appears 1 every 1-3 months. He isn't fun and his numbers aren't so good after 5 or more nerf in a raw.