Revert Rengar already. New Rengar is an abomination.

KnifeCat··113 votes·10,633 views

Rito likes to claim that Rengar had no counterplay, was too frustrating to play against, etc. It's all bs.

Rengar has only ever been OP a few times since release, like a month per year. (and that was usually due to itemization suddenly making him good)

All other times he was usually average or below average. I remember countless times i'd have people on my team telling me "no pls not rengar, pick anything else, Rengar sucks"

He had SO much counterplay. Wards, CC, grouping up, & not to mention going into a fight was all or nothing, there was almost no chance of coming out if anything went wrong. Because of that, he had huge damage in the mid game when really fed, but was generally useless when not fed. What was so unhealthy about this?

Now he's the opposite of that, he's tanky asf, does insane dmg, easily escapes fights and cc, there's almost no risk for going in. I can take out their carries in the middle of their team and usually come out .... This iteration of Rengar is the most toxic/unhealthy ever. Not to mention his ult no longer functions as an hunting tool, which is what made him Rengar ! hunting people down, picking off lone targets ... that's what Rengar is about. Not press R to seize objectives, or jump in to their team dish out big dmg on carry, tank everything and walk out ..... it's stupid.. Just revert him pls, he's the furthest thing from what he's supposed to be (a hunter). & not only that, but he's now at the most op/broken/toxic state he's ever been in, when previously he was just fine and almost never op pick/ban status.

75 Comments

Blakiepug21 votes

Tbh, I never understood why they thought Rengar was so unhealthy in the first place. And if anything, his rework made him even more so. I'm not a huge Rengar player but I've played him and enjoyed him a bit in the past and I have to say that I found his kit much more fun before they changed it. This may sound stupid, but I personally enjoyed his old Q a lot more than his new dash Q. Pushing Q and seeing a hard thrust into the victim downwards simply felt more cooler and more unique to me since so many other champions already have a dash.

Hairy30006 votes

Trust me man basically every old rengar player atleast wants the q back you do not sound stupid.

SaltyKracka18 votes

Every Rengar is an abomination.

KnifeCat17 votes

Well if every Rengar is an abomination then current Rengar is the king of abominations.

XeroKimo16 votes

I hate all of them equally, point and click E rengar, Triple Q rengar, Lock down E therefore you can't run Rengar, and now guarantee crit on closest target and aoe Q Rengar

Veltox5 votes

Where is ap?

XeroKimo4 votes

An abomination that get's nerfed the moment it becomes relevant sure fuck that one too

Rengar Top Lane3 votes

{quoted}

Well if every Rengar is an abomination then current Rengar is the king of abominations.

He's like the hulk and abomination combined.

Nymzo11 votes

Seriously, if they want Rengar to require skills (ahahaha, good joke), just bring back his necklooth as a item (where you could get stacks of it but you could lose stacks if you die, just like a Dark seal or Mejai) but instead of having to buy it for 800 gold, give it the Viktor passif treatement.

Dusk Mane Rengar2 votes

Seriously I would love to see this

I haver never understood why Rengar bonetooth wasn't viktor like.

Nymzo2 votes

Probably because before it was a stacking item.

But now you don't lose any stacks when you die and he gets his bonetooth for free.

rengar vore11 votes

I WANT OLD RENGAR BACK MY LITTLE CAT Amumu

Ambient Snow9 votes

Honestly its Cause riot can't balance Stealth and damage that well, which makes these champions op.

Take a look around Aside from eve (who has her fits of op, and moments when riot nerfs her to oblivion)

Every champ that has a Stealth Does insane damage and their stealth pretty much makes it nearly op in most cases

Examples

Twitch - A well placed twitch can melt a entire team in a matter of seconds.

Khaz - Can blow up your back line hen hop away and stealthing to assure getaway.

Rhengar - As point above.

teemo - Is unique in that he can stealth by sitting in a spot for a set time or a instantly in a bush - his is simply he has to stay immobile for it to activate (his stealth isn't the issue its the stealth shrooms that can be littered across the map that are devastating)

Vaynes - Is activate able with tumble and with her massive damage utility unless you have a point and click stun in many cases she can go in and out of stealth with tumble and just blow up your team entire line

akali - is another High burst with stealth but hers is limited to a single specific area and while hers isn't as dangerous mostly because you can pull her out of it with Aoe attacks or simply skill shots into the small area.

Talons - Stealth is based off his Ultimate which in turn is massively op at this time due to the Lethality build, simply put, the fact a Talon can combo you Then stealth and blow you up is just a bit much. Also with a defensive method you can simply stealth and walk away if needed.

Eve - even has her moments of hopping in blowing up a squishy or two .

the only thing that makes Eve different is EVE's stealth is based on a Timer

Every one else has a activate able stealth for getaways.

so with the exception of 2 Champions stealth a activate able stealth seems to be a cause for concern with the Damage creep at its current state.

Terozu3 votes

2 Squishies? When I play evelynn, only the tanks will remain, because Thunderlords is totally balanced (hint hint, this is sarcasm).

Dannywolf8 votes

I miss when his ult actually made him invisible. Why do all the other stealth champs have true invisibility and Rengar is just bad-camouflage?

KnifeCat11 votes

Especially when rengar's stealth only got him in the fight, then he was on his own. Meanwhile, Kha zix, Talon, akali, even Vayne all use stealth to both get in, and/or reposition/get out of fights ..

My Heartshaker3 votes

Twitch mains like me crying in a corner :(

yoshi27901 votes

Twitch mains deserve true hell.

Fuck that little rat.

TheHappyReaperz8 votes

"Because of that, he had huge damage in the mid game when really fed, but was generally useless when not fed. What was so unhealthy about this?"

it's a feast/famine playstyle, that if old Rengar was balanced, would mean he would one-shotting literally everyone half of his games, and more useless than 0/20 ADC the other half. How does that seem balanced?

Rengar Top Lane2 votes

{quoted}

"Because of that, he had huge damage in the mid game when really fed, but was generally useless when not fed. What was so unhealthy about this?"

it's a feast/famine playstyle, that if old Rengar was balanced, would mean he would one-shotting literally everyone half of his games, and more useless than 0/20 ADC the other half. How does that seem balanced?

Rather lose a game because I made mistakes on not breaking even or getting ahead as old Rengar than getting a free pass to win just because I can build tank and still dive the adc/live. It's not enjoyable and destroys the risk and satisifaction pulling off full ad Rengar brought to the table.

Dusk Mane Rengar4 votes

I have to agree that Old Rengar wasn't balanced.

However pre-rework Rengar was at the healthiest and most balanced state he has ever been.

Rengar Top Lane2 votes

{quoted}

"Because of that, he had huge damage in the mid game when really fed, but was generally useless when not fed. What was so unhealthy about this?"

it's a feast/famine playstyle, that if old Rengar was balanced, would mean he would one-shotting literally everyone half of his games, and more useless than 0/20 ADC the other half. How does that seem balanced?

Would question why not reply with a decent response instead of downvoting and hiding, but forgot you have no decent response to reply with because your post was incorrect from the start.

All assassins are feast and famine when you get to the bottom line. You either get fed and stomp; feed and lose, or break even and have a chance to do something in a teamfight. If you cannot accept that, you know nothing of balance. It's also the reason Riot are struggling to balance certain champions because they want to make them viable throughout the entire match. If you screw up in a game to the point where you are struggling, you most likely do not deserve to win and need to start praying your enemy team gives you the ability to stall out the game.

Narcos Cosinus7 votes

I don't get it. Now you know when exactly he ults and you even know if he's aiming for you because of the mark. He can no longer bring full ferocity instantly rooting you in place but he has to fight you now. Sure he can cleanse CC, but then he sacrifices damage or root. I am pretty sure unless he's overfed, he can't just jump into 5 people, get kill and make it away. Thats impossible.

Nuparu2 votes

That's quite literally what he's been doing since his rework though.

It's either zone-your-carry-for-25-seconds and win fights or engage anyways, watch him leap from out of fucking nowhere (hint: it's almost never the front) and use his ridiculous crit + aoe q to kill someone and cripple other teammmates, and if he's strong enough he can double q to wipe the entire backline like how much sense does this make anymore lol...

Narcos Cosinus1 votes

You can still use a control ward tho.

mvmlego1 votes

I fully agree. Initially after the rework, he was as broken as preseason 5 Warwick was. I banned him every game I got the chance. Since then, though, they've taken away the CC immunity effect and reduced his ult duration, which were the two parts of his kit that were actually unfair. He's still very strong if he gets to counterpick a team full of squishies, but I don't see that as a glaring problem (let alone worthy of a revert).

junglerboy167 votes

Your argument doesn't hold water. Just because Rengar is overtuned now doesn't make pre-rework rengar suddenly healthy. He was an extreme case of feast or famine gameplay and had to remain in a perpetual state of weakness to avoid having him terrorize games. New rengar at least has real skill expression (although only minimally improved) and his ultimate and Q rework both allow for much healthier patterns.

Beats me why they haven't nerfed him, cuz he IS overtuned, but he is healthier from a kit perspective. They need to reduce his Q /empowered Q damage and ratios (he has too much AoE burst) and nerf his W heal substantially and he'd be set. If he starts struggling to kill champs within reason they ought to buff his ult to give a slightly stronger crit at later ranks.

Rengar Top Lane3 votes

{quoted}

Your argument doesn't hold water. Just because Rengar is overtuned now doesn't make pre-rework rengar suddenly healthy. He was an extreme case of feast or famine gameplay and had to remain in a perpetual state of weakness to avoid having him terrorize games. New rengar at least has real skill expression (although only minimally improved) and his ultimate and Q rework both allow for much healthier patterns.

Beats me why they haven't nerfed him, cuz he IS overtuned, but he is healthier from a kit perspective. They need to reduce his Q /empowered Q damage and ratios (he has too much AoE burst) and nerf his W heal substantially and he'd be set. If he starts struggling to kill champs within reason they ought to buff his ult to give a slightly stronger crit at later ranks.

Just because pre-rework Rengar wasn't deemed healthy by victims, doesn't mean it was a great idea to rework him into what we have now. All assassins are feast and famine when you get to the bottom line. You either get fed and destroy, break even and have a slight chance of doing something, or do horrible and cannot do anything. That's the law of assassins and I do not understand why no one gets it. I also have no clue why adcs believe they should live to an assassin when they are caught out or have no summoners/mobility. The adc should die. What the adc should not die to is an assassin building full tank and doing what an assassin is supposed to be doing. Now, that's not balanced at all.

New Rengar has zero skill representation. Even Riot admitted they reduced his skill cap and players pick up the new Rengar way easier in few games. His Q rework is unhealthy because Rengar is intended to be a single target assassin. From his passive leap, to bola, to ultimate, it's all single target focused. Why add an aoe Q to his kit? For jungle clear? He did not need it at all. Just makes it easier to aoe delete 2-3 squishies at a time.

The current one should be nerfed, if not reverted, but the kit is not healthy compared to the old one because of cleanse, 50% heals, and aoe Q + crit on leap. Old Rengar was strong with crit and empowered Q attack speed. If Riot worked on that kit first by making his Q not crit, attack speed only apply on target the empowered Q was proc'd on, make his bola's snare duration based on how close he was to the target when it hits, and add a pink ward slot, it would be better. Players cannot buy pinks late and Rengar's ultimate truly shines late game when he picks someone off for 50 seconds.

Support a revert on the current Rengar if you're complaining about his aoe burst. He shouldn't be an aoe assassin from kit pieces (trophies, ultimate, bola, old Q to lore wise).

flomper1 votes

{quoted}

Your argument doesn't hold water. Just because Rengar is overtuned now doesn't make pre-rework rengar suddenly healthy. He was an extreme case of feast or famine gameplay and had to remain in a perpetual state of weakness to avoid having him terrorize games. New rengar at least has real skill expression (although only minimally improved) and his ultimate and Q rework both allow for much healthier patterns.

Beats me why they haven't nerfed him, cuz he IS overtuned, but he is healthier from a kit perspective. They need to reduce his Q /empowered Q damage and ratios (he has too much AoE burst) and nerf his W heal substantially and he'd be set. If he starts struggling to kill champs within reason they ought to buff his ult to give a slightly stronger crit at later ranks.

So what you're saying is just take rengar make him shit and then leave him in an unfun state? Awww just like the all too relevant mordekaiser we here so much of these days and a classic riot move I must say.

junglerboy161 votes

Uh, no.

Tired of these kinds of fatalistic views on the game. Nerfing an OP champ where they have excessive strength or lack a needed weakness is called balance, not gutting.

Current problems:

  • Rengar deals too much AoE damage
  • Rengar is too safe

Easy solutions are nerf his AoE damage and increase the risk he takes by reducing his heal. It's simple logic kid.

Astoreth1 votes

{quoted}

Uh, no.

Tired of these kinds of fatalistic views on the game. Nerfing an OP champ where they have excessive strength or lack a needed weakness is called balance, not gutting.

Current problems:

  • Rengar deals too much AoE damage
  • Rengar is too safe

Easy solutions are nerf his AoE damage and increase the risk he takes by reducing his heal. It's simple logic kid.

Probably bringing back his old ~~Queue ~~ 'Q'as an auto reset, and remove the ability of that skill to crit, but keep something like dunno, on hit effects. If the problem is too much aoe, I don't know, im not a game developer and im happy with rengar atm...

DoktorKaiser5 votes

Ok I agree with your statement, current Rengar must be reverted, but lets be real. I was there when Rengar was released and I am here now - he was NEVER a balanced champion, not for 1 goddamn patch, he is either extremely broken with literally 0 counterplay and makes you want to delete the game or is pure trash that cant do anything. His previous design is only better because it rewarded skill rather than whatever this new Rengar rewards, rightclicking I guess...

Nuparu3 votes

He's never been pure trash (at least not since Season 3.)

He's always either been a bit overtuned (where it became an issue dealing with him and stopping the snowball before he became a problem) or he was relatively snowbally like most other assassins where either you used your tools to get the kills (like your 150 second ult cooldown level 1) to try and get the minimum stacks on your Bonetooth Necklace to be relevant come mid-game.

The pre-rework Rengar was clear in the 2nd part - he either had to make very good ganks (which were unreliable as all he had was his one skillshot to force and no way to really make it more reliable) and/or had to rely on strong ultimate usage (and usually one failed ult in this type would set you behind) in order to maintain tempo he would need to reach mid-game and thrive.

I think pre-rework was actually the most healthy iteration of Rengar in a while. He was relatively balanced, wasn't overbearing in solo queue, and had potential to either snowball or get shut down. All of these were trademarks of an assassin - the only issue at hand was, well, he had invisibility and everyone hates being killed by an invisible assassin with a 2000 range indicator apparently.

Off Meta Evan2 votes

while i think his counterplay before is debatable. his counterplay right now is basically non existant. "we wanted to make it feel like you had more of a chance.... so we gave me a free QSS."

Anu3isII2 votes

So, Fiora Rework all over again?

aspects12 votes

when they revert, people are going to complain about old rengar hes not the problem, its the items that are

NineTailedMystic2 votes

He had SO much counterplay. Wards, CC, grouping up, & not to mention going into a fight was all or nothing, there was almost no chance of coming out if anything went wrong. Because of that, he had huge damage in the mid game when really fed, but was generally useless when not fed. What was so unhealthy about this?

That's why. If he did jump on you, there was nothing you could do especially if he could do the oneshot combo. You had to be a god with your reflexes to exhaust him or zhonyas.

Dusk Mane Rengar2 votes

How to counter old Rengar from Bronze to Challenger in 2 and simple steps.

1- Get a item 2055 and place it near your carry at the start of a fight. Using item 3364 when you see the mark is a great idea too. 2-CC and Exhaust him when he is about to jump.

Congratulations! Rengar can't do shit now.

BONUS!

-If he uses EMP Q before jumping just flash or use your dash when he is mid jump to avoid his bola and stay away of bushes. Then just kite a melee champ who has no ways of reaching you. Caitlyn Ezreal Vayne Tristana Graves LucianKalista Quinn are all great at this, and some of then even have an extra way of disengage.

-If he uses EMP E while jumping use your dash or flash when he is mid jump. You can use item 3140 to clean his bola if he traps you and then just kite him.

-Be careful when picking immobile ADC if Rengar has been picked, i wouldn't recommend do it unless you have enough peel.

-AlistarJanna Karma Kindred Leona Sona Taric ZileanLeeSin Azir TahmKench can all make Rengar's job a complete nightmare.

Still not enough counterplay?

Alright!

-item 3046 item 3812 Negates part of Rengar damage easily. -item 3102 can be used to protect yourself from part of Rengar combo. -item 3047 blocks some Rengar's damage -item 3143 effective against crit Rengar.

Nyan Rengar2 votes

but... but there is/was no counterplay...

AdeBug1 votes

and when you hear him coming and are the support sitting under a tower, and dunno if he gon choose you or the adc, you either: zhonya in vain (or flash even behind the tower?...) cus he actually picked the adc, or die under said tower under 1s, while your screen is on the adc trying to ping him to come to safety and being @ready for ult/redempt/w/e

Dusk Mane Rengar2 votes

I repeat use this item 3364 and this item 2055 and you would always know when Rengar was going to jump and be ready for it. The most simple CC could destroy old Rengar.

AdeBug1 votes

im sorry, do turrets not give true vision anymore?!

Dusk Mane Rengar1 votes

Yes they give

Nuparu2 votes

Many characters could do a lot to stop him from one shotting them. Resistance items, dashing/blinking in a different path (than he jumped at you from), Zhonya's, knockups (i.e. Janna Q/R, Alistar Q, Vayne E, etc.) or Quicksilver Sash (and now, Edge of Night! Fun item...) could stop him from using his snare on you or oneshotting you (which required the bola to land unless he was five+ items and built crit or was ridiculously ahead with armor pen), which meant you had a lot of opportunity to escape or kill him.

Old Rengar did have a fair bit of issues when it came to killing truly immobile characters, but one could say the same thing about almost any Assassin in the game. But, much like Eve, you had to be smarter about warding him out versus, say, a Hecarim or something who would kill you in one combo as well.

For as much as I used to play old Rengar, I honestly feel like the new one is that much worse. A lot of his damage is now front-loaded into 2 abilities (which, ironically, do the same damage as his old oneshot combo when built damage), and the same issues arise as old Rengar (if you're alone, he's only going to kill you more efficiently now, for example, and he gets a lot of cleanup damage from AoE Q versus having to itemize Ravenous Hydra or Critical Strike in order to clean up fights well) but with even more benefits (like a cleanse on his W and %damage taken heal versus some resistances and a flat heal. Who on earth had the idea of making this new W?)

He just seems more selfish now and does the exact same thing as old Rengar except he builds Lethality to nuke everyone versus Critical Strike for sustained damage and Armor Pen for burst damage. He trades not very much for even more benefits but doesn't even feel better to play as or against.

N3mO062 votes

This champ has a curse: he can't reach 50% win rate without being considered toxic and overpower and then nerfed several times thanks to his kit and the luck of true work from riot's balance team. if they listen to the player base they may understand that adding Big numbers isn't a smart choise; Change his q to not scale with crit items changing also the animation and the sound, simply doesn't feel rengar anymore; Create an Ultimate which is just a closegap with a crit isn't even fun.

SpecterVonBaren2 votes

I feel like his ult is less problematic now at the least.

Davids Journey2 votes

since the rework rengar i stopped playing him he is not fun at all just stupid

Variks the Loyal1 votes

Disagree.

Rengar can get in a fight and get out? Sounds like every other Assassin. He just does it in his own unique way (Healing while using MS to evade enemies). I like it; it's different than the constant blinks and dashes other Assassins have.

I'd also argue he feels more like a hunter now, especially with the new trophy mechanic. His ult still feels like a hunt and is much more terrifying for the carries.

Rengar Top Lane2 votes

{quoted}

Disagree.

Rengar can get in a fight and get out? Sounds like every other Assassin. He just does it in his own unique way (Healing while using MS to evade enemies). I like it; it's different than the constant blinks and dashes other Assassins have.

I'd also argue he feels more like a hunter now, especially with the new trophy mechanic. His ult still feels like a hunt and is much more terrifying for the carries.

The movement speed was already in his kit before. Ult->speed out. Adding the heals just made it worse because he's a bruiser/tank now. New trophy mechanic could have been added on old Rengar as well, but a ball of ad stats is a horrible addition on a champion for passive. HIs ultimate doesn't feel like a hunt simply because you alarm the enemy a mile away, use it to zone or you're zoned because the enemy can see you if they position themselves correctly, or get lucky and catch out a stray like the old days.

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