Assassin items vs Adc items.

The thigh guy··2 votes·2,638 views

So. I see ALOT and I mean ALOT of complaints that Adc does too much damage now, they have too much agency. Blah blah blah. So I guess in my typical fashion I’ll do some maths.

So. The core builds will be a standard triple lethality vs triple crit item build, and I’ll even include costs.

Additional note. Every point of armor is a 1% increase to your effective health. So every point of lethality acts as a 1% boost to your effective damage, due to removing that armor. I’ll also be assuming 18 lethality because “not muh late game” assassins cry about

Lethality. Duskblade of drakkthar Youmuus ghostblade Edge of night.

165 ad 54 lethality. So +54% damage essentially.

That’s pretty nuts. But okay

Adc time.

Infinity edge Statik shiv Phantom dancer.

80 ad 75% crit 65% attack speed.

Damage amp included, each auto attack has an average increase to damage of about 68.75%.

Now for the costs of these lovely builds.

8800 gold for the assassin build

9100 gold for the Adc build.

These average builds do easily comparable damage, yet one is getting the living shit bashed out of it.

The assassin build tends to do even more damage due to the raw amount of ad they give and their main damage amp applying to their abilities.

31 Comments

Rebsii6 votes

54 Lethality is not 54% extra damage. It removes 54 armor from the target during the damage calculation.

Assuming you do not make it so they have negative resistances during the damage calculation, the damage formula is 100/(100+armor). However, lethality will not make it so the target can have negative armor, only armor reduction items can according to the wiki. Using the wiki, we can also assume most champions will be between 75-110 armor without any bonus armor at level 18. Knowing this info we can do some math.

Base Stats: 100/175=57.14% damage taken 100/210=47.61% damage taken Tabi: 100/195=51.28% damage taken 100/230=43.47% damage taken Tabi+Seeker's Armguard(Fully Stacked): 100/240=41.66% damage taken 100/275=36.36% damage taken

Calculating in the 54 lethality: 100/121=82.64% damage taken 100/156=64.10% damage taken Tabi: 100/141=70.92% damage taken 100/176=56.81% damage taken Tabi+Seeker's Armguard(Fully Stacked): 100/186=53.76% damage taken 100/221=45.24% damage taken

Differencing the two columns: 82.64-57.14=25.50% difference in damage 64.10-47.61=16.49% difference in damage 70.92-51.28=19.64% difference in damage 56.81-43.47=13.34% difference in damage 53.76-41.66=12.10% difference in damage 45.24-36.36=8.88% difference in damage

So 54% is not even close to realistic here. Furthermore, you poorly recognize the value of the stats from the ADC build. Infinity Edge alone makes it so you can crit for 225% of your base damage. Assuming the ADC is level 18, they will have between 95-137 base AD. Since crits make you do 225% damage, you have the potential to gain between (80+95)*2.25-95=298.75 AD and (80+137)2.25-137=351.25 AD from items. So there is a 75% you gain 298.75-351.25 AD from items and a 25% chance you only gain 80 AD. If I am not completely messing up the math, we can average this by doing (3Crit damage + 80)/4. This gives an average damage increase of 244.0625-283.4375 AD. On top of all that extra damage, ADCs also getting a whopping 65% attack speed.

So let's compare, lethality can give 165 AD and remove 25.50% damage reduction in a best case scenario. Additionally, asssassin items give 20% CDR and 250 Hp. On the other hand, ADC builds can 244.0625-283.4375 AD on average along with 65% attack speed. Even assuming you get exactly 165*1.255= 207.075 AD from lethality, the AD from an ADC build is far greater for 300 gold more. And we'll just call the other stats close enough.

Edit: Calculating gold efficiency. Using the wiki, we find values for gold efficiency of AD, Lethality, and AS. Assassin build: 165 AD = 35x165 = 5775 54 Lethality = 22.5x54 = 1215 20% CDR = 26.6x20 = 532 250HP = 2.6x250 = 650 Total Value = 8172 8800 cost Gold Efficiency = 92.86%

ADC Build: 244.0625 - 283.4375 AD = 35x244.0625 OR 35x283.4375 = 8542.1875 OR 9920.3125 65% Attack Speed = 25x65 = 1625 Total Value = 10167.1875 OR 11545.3125 9100 cost Gold Efficiency = 111.60% OR 126.87%

Not HeIping You2 votes

was that before or after the adc explodes while trying to teamfight and the enemy zed instantly kills two people.

Rebsii3 votes

We are talking about item value, this has nothing to do with champion kits.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

54 Lethality is not 54% extra damage. It removes 54 armor from the target during the damage calculation.

Assuming you do not make it so they have negative resistances during the damage calculation, the damage formula is 100/(100+armor). However, lethality will not make it so the target can have negative armor, only armor reduction items can according to the wiki. Using the wiki, we can also assume most champions will be between 75-110 armor without any bonus armor at level 18. Knowing this info we can do some math.

Base Stats: 100/175=57.14% damage taken 100/210=47.61% damage taken Tabi: 100/195=51.28% damage taken 100/230=43.47% damage taken Tabi+Seeker's Armguard(Fully Stacked): 100/240=41.66% damage taken 100/275=36.36% damage taken

Calculating in the 54 lethality: 100/121=82.64% damage taken 100/156=64.10% damage taken Tabi: 100/141=70.92% damage taken 100/176=56.81% damage taken Tabi+Seeker's Armguard(Fully Stacked): 100/186=53.76% damage taken 100/221=45.24% damage taken

Differencing the two columns: 82.64-57.14=25.50% difference in damage 64.10-47.61=16.49% difference in damage 70.92-51.28=19.64% difference in damage 56.81-43.47=13.34% difference in damage 53.76-41.66=12.10% difference in damage 45.24-36.36=8.88% difference in damage

So 54% is not even close to realistic here. Furthermore, you poorly recognize the value of the stats from the ADC build. Infinity Edge alone makes it so you can crit for 225% of your base damage. Assuming the ADC is level 18, they will have between 95-137 base AD. Since crits make you do 225% damage, you have the potential to gain between (80+95)*2.25-95=298.75 AD and (80+137)2.25-137=351.25 AD from items. So there is a 75% you gain 298.75-351.25 AD from items and a 25% chance you only gain 80 AD. If I am not completely messing up the math, we can average this by doing (3Crit damage + 80)/4. This gives an average damage increase of 244.0625-283.4375 AD. On top of all that extra damage, ADCs also getting a whopping 65% attack speed.

So let's compare, lethality can give 165 AD and remove 25.50% damage reduction in a best case scenario. Additionally, asssassin items give 20% CDR and 250 Hp. On the other hand, ADC builds can 244.0625-283.4375 AD on average along with 65% attack speed. Even assuming you get exactly 165*1.255= 207.075 AD from lethality, the AD from an ADC build is far greater for 300 gold more. And we'll just call the other stats close enough.

Edit: Calculating gold efficiency. Using the wiki, we find values for gold efficiency of AD, Lethality, and AS. Assassin build: 165 AD = 35x165 = 5775 54 Lethality = 22.5x54 = 1215 20% CDR = 26.6x20 = 532 250HP = 2.6x250 = 650 Total Value = 8172 8800 cost Gold Efficiency = 92.86%

ADC Build: 244.0625 - 283.4375 AD = 35x244.0625 OR 35x283.4375 = 8542.1875 OR 9920.3125 65% Attack Speed = 25x65 = 1625 Total Value = 10167.1875 OR 11545.3125 9100 cost Gold Efficiency = 111.60% OR 126.87%

Riot had stated that each point of armor is 1% added effective health against ad. So each point of armor removed is effectively decreasing their health pool by 1%. Which equates to a 1% Increase to damage output.

As for gold efficiently. That isn’t as important when you aren’t accounting for the item passes as well.

Even so, you forgot the additional 40ms tacked onto youmuu’s.

Rebsii4 votes

Decreasing effective health is not the same as doing more damage. If I have 350 armor and 2k hp, the effective health is 4.5x2000=9000 hp. I then do 165 damage taking them to 8835 effective health. This removes 1.83% of their hp. Now with 54 lethality. 3.96x2000=7920 effective hp. Removing 165 makes their effective health 7755. This attack removes 2.083% of their hp. As you know, 1.83*1.54!=2.083. This means you are not doing 54% more damage with lethality.

As for passives, they are not going to make assassin items masively overpowered compared to ADC items. The passive damage from statikk (140 magic and can crit for 125% bonus damage) is AoE and can crit to do more damage than duskblade (150 physical damage). And then a control ward passive. Movespeed active and passive on ghostblade. Phantom dancer's passive gives 7% movespeed and ghost. It also gives a huge 600 hp shield which I could compare to the spellshield from Edge of Night. In other words, the value of the passives for assassin itemization is not heinously more than the value of the passive for ADC itemization.

Not only is ADC itemization asininely gold efficient, it gives more AD than assassin itemization.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

Decreasing effective health is not the same as doing more damage. If I have 350 armor and 2k hp, the effective health is 4.5x2000=9000 hp. I then do 165 damage taking them to 8835 effective health. This removes 1.83% of their hp. Now with 54 lethality. 3.96x2000=7920 effective hp. Removing 165 makes their effective health 7755. This attack removes 2.083% of their hp. As you know, 1.83*1.54!=2.083. This means you are not doing 54% more damage with lethality.

As for passives, they are not going to make assassin items masively overpowered compared to ADC items. The passive damage from statikk (140 magic and can crit for 125% bonus damage) is AoE and can crit to do more damage than duskblade (150 physical damage). And then a control ward passive. Movespeed active and passive on ghostblade. Phantom dancer's passive gives 7% movespeed and ghost. It also gives a huge 600 hp shield which I could compare to the spellshield from Edge of Night. In other words, the value of the passives for assassin itemization is not heinously more than the value of the passive for ADC itemization.

Not only is ADC itemization asininely gold efficient, it gives more AD than assassin itemization.

What do you mean? Decreasing effective hp IS the same as dealing more damage to the target. They die faster.

As for adc itemization giving more ad. That’s wrong. Never once, have I gotten 500+ ad on a adc not named jhin. Have I done it on Assassin Kayn, rengar and kha zix. Yes. Many time.

Rebsii1 votes

I gave math that proves otherwise. All because they die faster does not mean it is the same as doing more damage. For me to do 54% more damage to that target, I would need to do 1.831.54=2.81% of their effective hp. 165/x=0.0281. x=5871.88. 2000(1+.01x)=5871.88. 1+.01*x=2.93. .01x=1.93. X=~193. In other words. For me to do 54% more damage to a target with 2k hp and 350 armor, I need them to be reduced to ~193 armor. For this I would need 157 lethality.

Also, I phrased the ad thing poorly. Because of IE and crit, you do that much extra damage. So yes, you gain more damage from those items then you would from building lethality.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

I gave math that proves otherwise. All because they die faster does not mean it is the same as doing more damage. For me to do 54% more damage to that target, I would need to do 1.831.54=2.81% of their effective hp. 165/x=0.0281. x=5871.88. 2000(1+.01x)=5871.88. 1+.01*x=2.93. .01x=1.93. X=~193. In other words. For me to do 54% more damage to a target with 2k hp and 350 armor, I need them to be reduced to ~193 armor. For this I would need 157 lethality.

Also, I phrased the ad thing poorly. Because of IE and crit, you do that much extra damage. So yes, you gain more damage from those items then you would from building lethality.

So what you are implying is that other than the ad supplied by say, mortal reminder, the 25% armor pen does not increase damage?

You’re also implying that black cleaver’s, again other than the ad it supplies, passive which shreds off 24% Of armor does not increase damage.

The same suggestion applies to the passive of void staff penetrating 40% of magic resistance. That also doesn’t increase damage?

Or sorcerers shoes, a item often referred to as the only boot item to directly increase damage, does not increase damage?

Also, in your gold value examination, you included base ad into the gold Value for the Adc items but not the assassin items.

Rebsii1 votes

I am not saying that armor pen does not increase damage. I am saying 1 lethality does not equal a 1% damage increase.

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

I am not saying that armor pen does not increase damage. I am saying 1 lethality does not equal a 1% damage increase.

It does when you start equating how much effective health they are removing.

Let’s say the enemy has 1000 health and 50 armor, that’s 1500 effective health against physical damage. Remove 10 of that armor with a lethality item, and you’ve removed roughly 150 effective health.

Rebsii2 votes

No, it does not. You still have 100% of your hp if you lose 10 armor. There is a huge difference between dealing damage and lowering the effective health of someone by building lethality. You deal more damage because you lower their effective health, thus you take away a larger percentile of their health when you deal damage. Here, do some simple math for me. Calculate the effective health of someone with 2000 hp and 250 armor. Apply 100 damage, apply 110 damage. Now calculate the effective health of someone with 2000 hp and 240 armor. Apply 100 damage. What percentage of the champions health was removed in each instance?

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

No, it does not. You still have 100% of your hp if you lose 10 armor. There is a huge difference between dealing damage and lowering the effective health of someone by building lethality. You deal more damage because you lower their effective health, thus you take away a larger percentile of their health when you deal damage. Here, do some simple math for me. Calculate the effective health of someone with 2000 hp and 250 armor. Apply 100 damage, apply 110 damage. Now calculate the effective health of someone with 2000 hp and 240 armor. Apply 100 damage. What percentage of the champions health was removed in each instance?

Okay. I’m going to stop because you don’t seem to understand effective hp.

Rebsii1 votes

Here, an even simpler way to show that lethality does not do 1% damage/Lethality. Open the practice tool. Start a game as Zed. Max all your abilities. Buy 3 Spear of Shojins and a long sword. Hit a target dummy. From this you will do 161 damage. Now sell everything. Buy all lethality items and a pick axe. Hit the target dummy again. You now do 225 damage. 161*1.54!=225. If lethality gave 1% extra damage/lethality then the damage would have been closer to ~250.

Sir Saltarin2 votes

Agree.

Buff Lethality items please.

Not HeIping You1 votes

any item thats not an ad based item is always going to be cheaper, mages get cheaper items and so do assasins, they are superior champions anyway, they deserve superior items. The game isn't balanced around what players want or what is fair, it's balanced around lcs play. The pro's all play mages and tanks like it's a fucking crack addiction. Why? Probably because they are superior.

kμrayami1 votes

lethality sucks facking dicks you have to build 2 of those items and a fcking last whisper to even do dmg to a tanky target and im not even talking about tanks i am talking about people that builds item 3191 or item 3047 there is no point on taking full lethality build as an example its just a stat for early midgame champs that sucks on early and midgame and its decen on late but not that great since the ad that it gives is so fcking low

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

lethality sucks facking dicks you have to build 2 of those items and a fcking last whisper to even do dmg to a tanky target and im not even talking about tanks i am talking about people that builds item 3191 or item 3047 there is no point on taking full lethality build as an example its just a stat for early midgame champs that sucks on early and midgame and its decen on late but not that great since the ad that it gives is so fcking low

Way to ignore that dirk gives the single highest damage boost of any component items.

kμrayami2 votes

???????????? that shit item does NOTHING against this item 1029 for real i am talking in scenarios when you are playing against a real human being not a bot people know they should buy armor against champs that buys lethality

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

???????????? that shit item does NOTHING against this item 1029 for real i am talking in scenarios when you are playing against a real human being not a bot people know they should buy armor against champs that buys lethality

Really? Removing 10% of effective health, 40 bonus damage after killing a unit and 25 ad. Your actually about to sit there and lie through your teeth that this item isn’t the single biggest damage spike for a component item?

kμrayami2 votes

[deleted]

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

you are actually r%%%%%ed legit a bronze 4 piece of shit

Funny. You lack arguments to prove otherwise and you chose to insult someone. Cool. I see I’m correct here. Good day sir.

kμrayami2 votes

[deleted]

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

there is no point of arguing in this boards specially if its with a guy like you some1 who doesnt know what he is talking about at all so i rather call u bronze piece of shit (which u r) and i can have some fun

Keep telling yourself that.

kμrayami1 votes

[deleted]

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

https://imgur.com/a/0PGwwG3 nah bro im telling it to you

Congrats! You got me! I’m just a pleb who doesn’t actually play ranked. But you know. Sit up on that high horse and act like your god at this game.

kμrayami1 votes

you are actuaññy such a sad human being lmfao

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

you are actuaññy such a sad human being lmfao

Keep going dude. Gotta try harder than that. XD

kμrayami1 votes

dude i already saw ur op.gg i dont even have to try

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

dude i already saw ur op.gg i dont even have to try

If that’s you trying boy. You suck at this. XD

The thigh guy1 votes

{quoted}

I mean. It looks more like you’re the one taking trash.

Can’t disprove a point so you attack the other person. Just proves you are wrong and would rather not admit it.

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