I am beyond tired of explaining this

Lost R··17 votes·11,135 views

This is a great line from an otherwise crappy movie.

To put it in context, the Ducks got a 9/0 lead in the first two periods, but because they have terrible defense (a noted flaw throughout the trilogy of movies that finally comes into play here), they get crushed in the third period when their purely offensive tactics don't work anymore and they end the game in a 9/9 tie. A tie, but it's taken as a humiliating loss because of how quickly and effectively the enemy team was able to bounce back and steamroll over them when they had such a massive lead (in hockey, apparently a 4 point lead is considered a blowout).

The concept of defense applies to a bunch of other sports, and it especially applies to League. We don't have a concept of defense in League. I keep seeing one lane or another get pushed to the nexus turrets within 15 minutes, even if said lane hasn't been super fed or anything, because defense is so abysmally piss poor. When someone says "Play defensively", they don't seem to understand what that means other than don't try and attack the enemy, and they try to "play defensively"with entire teams with champions that are AWFUL at defensive play.

If you have to run into melee to attack the enemy, you can only focus single targets and you could be killed by a stiff breeze, you are not a defensive champion. If you hang back behind the turret and just waggle back and forth as the enemy takes it before dashing in to finish you off, you aren't playing defensively. If your support has to be the one that defends all three lanes while you do... whatever the fuck you think you're doing, then your offense suffers as well.

Playing defensively means being able to prevent the enemy from securing objectives or kills, not handing them over one by one unconditionally to them. More than that, you need to make sure your offense can have some sort of window of opportunity to shatter the enemy's offense and stop their assault on your objectives or individual champions. The enemy won't suddenly just step forward arms aside and give you the kill; you have to set them up for your offense to take care of them.

"Group" is not a tactic and doesn't mean anything other than all your champions are in one spot. In many instances, that is a bad thing, especially if you are dealing with AOE champions like Anivia, Brand, Fiddlesticks, Amumu, Malphite, etc, or especially if you are an all assassin team like Master Yi, Yasuo, Zed, Talon, Lucian and Pyke, and triple especially if both are true. If there is no one to defend or reinforce your back line or main damage dealers, or if you think you can just kill the enemy no problem because "kills are the best CC", then you have already lost both the fight and the game.

Pure offense and absolute zero defensive tactics are things people have beaten out of them miles before they even catch a fleeting glimpse of bush league status, and it is a travesty that even after 10 years, these are concepts in this community more alien and incomprehensible than anything in HP Lovecraft.

And I am very tired of having spent the past five years trying to explain this.

46 Comments

Kai Guy4 votes

I'm constantly trying to get players to understand the difference between subjective and objective judgment for raiting systems. I feel your frusturation with the community at times.

Like fucking hell, some one was using an aram taric game with a glass cannon build because "armor with worthless so I don't build it" and graded the champion off the time his Q takes to recharge to 5 stacks when your not able to use his passive because you die when anything looks at you. People supported this guy mindlessly.

Humans.[zombie-brand-mindblown]

Lost R2 votes

One Youtuber claimed that learning a champion was like and as hard as getting a college degree (from the perspective that you should only learn one champion and it should be whoever is in meta at the moment and it should just be Yasuo). As a college grad, that was a grave insult.

As for a brawler Taric build, I have experimented with the idea at length before. His main issue is that he eats through mana super fast fighting in melee constantly, which means basically ALL of your items have to be mana items if you don't want to recall constantly, with some kind of tear item to mitigate the amount of mana he will burn through(Manamune works best for an offensive build, but he should really build Archangel's Staff for the skills that scale with it, like his healing.) and definitely Titanic Hydra for the AOE damage and HP. His passive doubles his total attack speed (Wit's End is the only AS item that makes sense), but there's almost no reason to strike faster with it because of the cooldown related to a Sheen item that you will definitely want to build (if you do anything other than Iceborn Gauntlets, you are doing it wrong). Fortunately there are plenty of items that give both armor and mana, so you can continue to be a credit to your team while being an ad-hoc brawler (preferably with some kind of backup).

RekSai CoffeeCo3 votes

The concept of defense applies to a bunch of other sports, and it especially applies to League.

Wait what?

League? A Sport?

That is like saying Golf is a sport because of the defensive aspect of golf.

Terozu6 votes

LoL is officially recognized as a sport around the world.

KFCeytron6 votes

{quoted}

LoL is officially recognized as a sport around the world.

And "literally" is in the Oxford dictionary with a secondary definition of basically "the opposite of literally," and "irregardless" is in the Oxford dictionary defined as "regardless."

LoL is not a sport. It is a copyright, closed-source, proprietary service of a game whose implementation serves as its rule set, and the moment Riot decides or is forced to stop offering that service, it will disappear from the planet and no one will ever be legally permitted to play it again ("until the copyright expires!" No, because of a certain mouse).

Terozu3 votes

Yeah, Literally and Irregardless have secondary and contradictory meanings.

Thats how the world works and evolves. Every language changes like that.

And LoL is officially a sport. Your opinion doesn't change that.

KFCeytron7 votes

{quoted}

Yeah, Literally and Irregardless have secondary and contradictory meanings.

Thats how the world works and evolves. Every language changes like that.

And LoL is officially a sport. Your opinion doesn't change that.

And LoL as a sport is secondary and contradictory, too, because that's not what it is, just like people misuse the words "literally" and "irregardless" because they don't know any better.

LoL is not a sport. Some people "officially" thinking it's a sport doesn't change that. Self-important organizations can declare whatever they like, but the only incontrovertible fact there is that they have declared something.

Terozu4 votes

So... what exactly is a sport then?

Sports are defined by society, society says league is a sport. Therefore it is, irregardless(wink wink) of your opinion, a sport.

Because, you see, things change. You not liking it, doesn't stop it. Have fun being stuck in the past.

KFCeytron6 votes

{quoted}

So... what exactly is a sport then?

Sports are defined by society, society says league is a sport. Therefore it is, irregardless(wink wink) of your opinion, a sport.

Because, you see, things change. You not liking it, doesn't stop it. Have fun being stuck in the past.

I already explained my reasons above. You didn't read them, I suppose. Not much point in talking to you further. I officially declare this conversation over. :)

Terozu4 votes

No, you you didn't give any reasons. You just said that people who use the secondary definitions of words are wrong, even though they're proper definitions.

That isn't a reason. That's just you hating on language evolution, lol.

KFCeytron6 votes

{quoted}

No, you you didn't give any reasons. You just said that people who use the secondary definitions of words are wrong, even though they're proper definitions.

That isn't a reason. That's just you hating on language evolution, lol.

My reasoning:

It is a copyright, closed-source, proprietary service of a game whose implementation serves as its rule set, and the moment Riot decides or is forced to stop offering that service, it will disappear from the planet and no one will ever be legally permitted to play it again ("until the copyright expires!" No, because of a certain mouse).

Your reasoning was argument from authority.

LoL is, in reality, not a sport.

Good. Bye.

Terozu2 votes

[deleted]

Lost R1 votes

If it one day becomes unavailable, then the copyright will, by extension, inevitably expire and enter the public domain. Then anyone could set up a private server and re-establish the League community.

But that would first require the game to stop making money.

ModRowanstar2 votes

{quoted}

LoL is, in reality, on official sport. Just because it might one day not be available, doesn't mean it isn't.

And your opinion, in reality, means absolutely nothing.

So yeah, bye.

We should respect each others' opinions as long as they are related to the topic and respectful.

Terozu1 votes

If your opinion is that a fact isn't a fact, it shouldn't be respected.

ModRowanstar1 votes

{quoted}

If your opinion is that a fact isn't a fact, it shouldn't be respected.

Well I see the logic in both your arguments. League is a mental sport an Esport. SO therefore it can be considered a sport of sorts. But it is not a sport in the traditional sense. We should work to see things from other people's standpoints.

Kjack19431 votes

U need to STFU and keep ur powerstick under control talking to people the way u do %%% boi. And your opinion, in reality, means absolutely nothing.? Lol look at u god saying what's means something or nothing. Go die xD;)

ModRowanstar1 votes

{quoted}

U need to STFU and keep ur powerstick under control talking to people the way u do %%% boi. And your opinion, in reality, means absolutely nothing.? Lol look at u god saying what's means something or nothing. Go die xD;)

Absolutely inappropriate. Please abstain from using such language and crudeness, this is your only warning.

Kjack19432 votes

What r you going to do tell me my opinions don't matter xD. Why don't u make me buddy how's that? XD

Lrrr Omicronian9 votes

{quoted}

No, you you didn't give any reasons. You just said that people who use the secondary definitions of words are wrong, even though they're proper definitions.

That isn't a reason. That's just you hating on language evolution, lol.

He did give one reason. There are several.

SportAccord uses the following criteria, determining that a sport should:

  1. have an element of competition

  2. be in no way harmful to any living creature

  3. not rely on equipment provided by a single supplier (excluding proprietary games such as arena football)

  4. not rely on any "luck" element specifically designed into the sport.

  5. I'll grant.

  6. A more cruel form of torture has never been devised by man.

  7. This was KFC cited objection. If the American League closed up shop tomorrow, then kids would still play baseball in the street. If Riot close, then nobody would ever play LoL again. Not only do you have to play with their client, but you must play on their servers... there is no "home game", private version to play with friends etc... tournaments must take place on Riot servers...

  8. This is a bit iffy, because there actually is a lot of random stuff that can benefit one team more than another. The spirit is that it's not reliant on luck, but there is considerable interference from random elements that doesn't exist in recognized sports.

This is one of the broadest sets of criteria for "sport". Most others limit sport to physical activity with few exceptions (chess being a notable one).

Even Riot, which normally takes great liberties with English, is still careful to designate LoL as "eSports". It's a video game with many of the trappings of professional sports. It's an electronic parody of professional sports.

There's a lot of other things that fly in LoL, that would never be permitted in any sport that I am aware.

In team sports, if one team is a man down, then play ends. It's usually a default loss, or else the game is interrupted until a replacement, but they don't go ahead with the match with uneven teams.

The rules of baseball have remained unchanged for... practically forever. (And chess, even longer.) The game remains interesting and fresh because it is a game of human competition. LoL has rules that change LITERALLY every two weeks. I would consider stability to be part of the legitimacy of any recognized sport. Sports generally try to AVOID change as much as possible and achieve as much standardization as reasonable, even across different League, venues, countries, etc...

Riot makes changes just for the sake of making changes, and would consider something was wrong if the game went unchanged and actually did become a straight measure of player ability. The goal of a sports commission is to achieve ultimate balance in a sport so that no further changes would ever be necessary. Riot intentionally introduces small imbalances hoping that it will take a while before players catch on.

Lost R1 votes

And you needed to be on company-owned servers of Final Fantasy XI, City of Heroes, World of Warcraft, and basically any other MMO that are various states of dead in order to play them. City of Heroes is the most notable one because it actually was dead for a time; then someone came along and revived it with their own private servers, and I know my brother has played on private servers of World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy XI.

The same thing would inevitably happen with League if and when it goes. Nothing stays dead forever these days.

Lrrr Omicronian2 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lost R,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QmAeuRbT,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000010000,timestamp=2019-09-05T01:20:00.592+0000)

And you needed to be on company-owned servers of Final Fantasy XI, City of Heroes, World of Warcraft, and basically any other MMO that are various states of dead in order to play them. City of Heroes is the most notable one because it actually was dead for a time; then someone came along and revived it with their own private servers, and I know my brother has played on private servers of World of Warcraft and Final Fantasy XI.

The same thing would inevitably happen with League if and when it goes. Nothing stays dead forever these days.

I don't disagree with your post, and neither, I think, does KFC. I'm not even arguing semantics with you; I don't think that the point of your post was the LoL is a sport. (This is just a tangential point.)

LoL certainly has elements of strategy on a par with many sports. And your post concerned that strategy, using sports as an analogy or a useful comparison.

Samuel Murphy1 votes

I agree that riot changing the rules all the time makes the game seem less like a sport but, thats because that is what we are currently used to.

The NFL can change a rule anytime they like and it would change the game. They Own football. NFL doesn't change the rules because spectators wouldn't like it. And they want money so they don't. Riot DOES make changes because Spectators like it. And they want money so they do.

I would also argue that the changes are a skill test for the players as well.

There was a time that Markmen ADC's where not viable and during that time some pro player botlaners actually suffered a great deal (some even took hiatus) while others that had a more versatile champion pool did really well.

musixxal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Samuel Murphy,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QmAeuRbT,comment-id=0000000000000000000000000000000000010001,timestamp=2019-09-05T13:47:01.696+0000)

I agree that riot changing the rules all the time makes the game seem less like a sport but, thats because that is what we are currently used to.

The NFL can change a rule anytime they like and it would change the game. They Own football. NFL doesn't change the rules because spectators wouldn't like it. And they want money so they don't. Riot DOES make changes because Spectators like it. And they want money so they do.

I would also argue that the changes are a skill test for the players as well.

There was a time that Markmen ADC's where not viable and during that time some pro player botlaners actually suffered a great deal (some even took hiatus) while others that had a more versatile champion pool did really well.

no one watches tech sports where the rules change every 4 years and are visually obvious. any elite motorsports competition for instance, WEC or F1 or even motogp those rules change all the time. in the NBA, there was no 3 point line 30 years ago, pretty sure some rule around rebounds and the shot clock was changed last season too. NFL rules actually change every 2 years with either a new addition to the rule set or an omission. Rugby, this one changes all the time lol, one year you're playing with X offside rules, the next it's Y offside rules, and expect some alteration to the scrum or lineout. pretty sure there was even some hubbub a few years back about football getting rid of injury time and having only standard time with a stopping clock for stoppages, it didn't get passed but these things are regular, i'm baffled people think rito plucked their cues out of the ether.

this post is not directed at you btw it is just an expansion on whats been said. i mean shit man people even get confused with rito hosting all their own events and citing sports defintions. all the major sports have an overruling governing body that oversees all competition. FIFA, FIA, IRB. if your pitch, race track, stadium, facilities are not up to standard then you don't get to host your games, akin to ones PC not being up to snuff to run a vidya game. i mean heck man countries have to build brand new stadiums and replan city roads to host the FIFA world cup, or if fortunate just renovate existing ones.

but i digress.

Lost R1 votes

Baseball is much more established now than it was when it began almost 200 years ago, but the rules for baseball changed a LOT over the years. Besides, League is much more heavily dependent on math and other far more, increasingly complicated factors, so it's harder to pinpoint when things are properly balanced.

Lrrr Omicronian5 votes

{quoted}

LoL is officially recognized as a sport around the world.

How's that College MOBA scholarship coming along?

Lost R1 votes

Other sports include bowling, kayaking, hang-gliding, lacrosse, fishing, archery, chess boxing, poker, darts and paintball, to name a very scant few.

Just because you can't get into college on a darts scholarship doesn't make it not a sport. That is VERY much not how and why sports scholarships exist.

True Garen1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lost R,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QmAeuRbT,comment-id=0000000000010000,timestamp=2019-09-05T01:26:21.356+0000)

Other sports include bowling, kayaking, hang-gliding, lacrosse, fishing, archery, chess boxing, poker, darts and paintball, to name a very scant few.

Pretty sure that you just left out the comma, but I just had an amusing 5m trying to imagine "chess boxing".

... and

still thinking about it....

Lost R1 votes

I did not leave out a comma; chess boxing is actually a thing.

floo6 votes

[{quoted}](name=RekSai CoffeeCo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QmAeuRbT,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-09-04T16:52:40.347+0000)

Wait what?

League? A Sport?

That is like saying Golf is a sport because of the defensive aspect of golf.

What? League has a defensive aspect, golf doesn't. Where's that comparison coming from?

General Esdeath 1 votes

{quoted}

What? League has a defensive aspect, golf doesn't. Where's that comparison coming from?

His ass, like the rest of his argument

musixxal1 votes

[{quoted}](name=General Esdeath ,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QmAeuRbT,comment-id=000000010000,timestamp=2019-09-05T05:17:04.194+0000)

His ass, like the rest of his argument

but there's a legit golfer itt who says golf does indeed have a defensive aspect. i mean i just spitballed a defensive golf scenario out my ass because i grew up near a golf estate with golfer friends so maybe i know a bit more than i should. ya'll know fuck all though and it's jading as sin.

musixxal2 votes

[{quoted}](name=RekSai CoffeeCo,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QmAeuRbT,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2019-09-04T16:52:40.347+0000)

Wait what?

League? A Sport?

That is like saying Golf is a sport because of the defensive aspect of golf.

you can play defensively in golf dude. here, easy scenario.

you have a course, any course, but it has a river or lake or some large body of water on it. the particular hole you're on the teeing area is seperated from the green by said body of water at a distance only truly gifted golfers can muster. you can attempt to go under par by getting your tee to go over the body of water and land on the other side of the hole closer to the green, or you can accept going under par and not risk losing your ball to the body of water and incurring penalty.

inuitmailman2 votes

{quoted}

you can play defensively in golf dude. here, easy scenario.

you have a course, any course, but it has a river or lake or some large body of water on it. the particular hole you're on the teeing area is seperated from the green by said body of water at a distance only truly gifted golfers can muster. you can attempt to go under par by getting your tee to go over the body of water and land on the other side of the hole closer to the green, or you can accept going under par and not risk losing your ball to the body of water and incurring penalty.

This is a legit thing hahaha even though it was a very bad comparison for defining sports😂 sincerely, a golfer

Reaper Soraka2 votes

The typical defender in Golf is called Wind. The best defender in golf is called Thunderstorm; People literally call it a day and leave when he's around.

MasterDClone3 votes

he never even implied that league was a sport he said that similar tactics used in sports can be used in league

musixxal3 votes

people in this game don't know how to play defensive because the concept of tempo evades them.

Illabethe4 votes

I've got to say: When I play with my Plat/Diamond friends, I actually have time to think, and carry my teams. When I'm with randoms, the pace and tempo get out of control and it becomes a coinflip whether I can defend/offend myself fast enough to cover them. Really sucks when you're Morg jung, but end the game with more CS from lanes than any laners, because they just keep starting fights, while you rotate from lane to lane casting a W, while trying to meet up with their fights, while trying to 1v1 the split pusher, while trying to secure Drakes/Barons.

Just had a game last night in low Gold with one of my Plat friends. He first picked Jax, and I picked Evelynn jung. He got counterpicked by Darius, and had a struggle in lane. I got about 2 good plays in botlane, while my friend lost his top turret and Darius began roaming. But..... we stayed calm, killed the bot gank once or twice, only lost a couple turrets, and Darius went back top to bully some more. At level 9, I told my doubting Plat friend to go in on Darius with me, and we easily shut him down (Eve), did it again after he tele'd mid, and within the next 10 minutes both Jax and I were S status scores, and had closed in their entire base. I had time to think out a counter Baron solo with Eve, and kill 3 of 5 as soon as they took Baron. I didn't feel pressured at all. I had to solo steal 2 drakes too. I didn't feel pressured.

It's amazing what happens when YOU set the tempo. I normally don't support duos; most duos are made up of emotional players leaning on each other. But I highly endorse some low elo duoing a high elo some time, and let them tell you what to do. You'll be amazed at what you can do when your team is outright trolling you, but you have a competent wingman who can keep your tempo.

https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Aredethe

Check the second game down. (The Warwick one)

Syndra on our team was outright win trading (Left manually as soon as she realized she wasn't going to surrender/lose us the game, and Zed defended her in post game as "trying" when she ran down mid entire game). Ashe was a toxic mofo who had 9 consecutive losses who entered our lobby screaming about "bad teammates."

I NEVER play Warwick. I haven't played him since about a year and a half ago. I picked him at 5 seconds left in champ select, looked up build stats, and built what "works." My duo and I literally 2v5'd that game. Game stalled out a little because the Xayah was fed and decent at holding off a game defensively, but as soon as I started using R on her instead of Diana, game was over. Garen could handle the others, and without Xayah they had no competent defense at all.

(We made it up to Xayah the next game, as she was our adc the next game)


I've had times where it seems like Time is standing still when I'm playing Morgana too. I've been chased by a Jarvan, Riven, and Zac at the same time, and managed to triple them all because time ..... just stopped..... and I was able to think: Okay; if I Q Riven who is behind the Jarvan, ult the Jarvan as he ults me, soil/auto Jarvan, kill the jarvan, Ignite the Riven, Flash Q her again, finish her with autos/pool, I can then use E to fight the Zac and get my cooldowns back yet again, and kill him too.

Bad teams don't allow that kind of moment. Carrying does. Teams that push another objective while you do that do.

This is why it annoys me when someone says, "You're at your appropriate elo." Well.... the truth is..... many Silvers/Golds actually play at a technical Plat/Diamond level, BUT, they generally are stuck playing with people who don't have that level, don't establish a defense, and force them to, rather than doing what they do best (applying pressure). I've seen Diamonds, Plats, lose in Silver. That's how bad it is.

Lost R3 votes

Years ago, I went 1/5 as Wukong in the top lane. I forget who my opponent was, but he abandoned lane with his five kills before he even destroyed the turret. I stayed in top lane the entire game, recalling only to evade the occassional visitor and to buy items. I built Triforce and Ravenous Hydra and just pushed the lane and turrets while the rest of my team broke even fighting the enemy and dealing with the problem I made for them. This somehow won us the game because nobody came top to stop me, even though I was insistent on pushing the lane as hard and fast as I can.

Vlada Cut1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Lost R,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QmAeuRbT,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2019-09-04T20:48:13.406+0000)

Years ago, I went 1/5 as Wukong in the top lane. I forget who my opponent was, but he abandoned lane with his five kills before he even destroyed the turret. I stayed in top lane the entire game, recalling only to evade the occassional visitor and to buy items. I built Triforce and Ravenous Hydra and just pushed the lane and turrets while the rest of my team broke even fighting the enemy and dealing with the problem I made for them. This somehow won us the game because nobody came top to stop me, even though I was insistent on pushing the lane as hard and fast as I can.

Why would you buy item 3074 when you were splitpushing? item 3748 is the split pushing item and at lesat it'a proccable on structures...

Lost R1 votes

It's been a while; I think this was before Titanic Hydra was a thing.

Lost R1 votes

And by the same token, you have people in high level play who know very little.

The thigh guy2 votes

The issue is defensive tactics don’t work.

Cool, you can wave clear to keep the enemy off your turret.

a wild jungler appears and you’ve been dove

They then take your turret and your life.

ModAcademy Kayn1 votes

I mean, it's still better than dying 5 times over because of a single member of their team. Defense shouldn't make you invulnerable, it's meant to keep you better off than if you were on the offense, and losing several times.

The thigh guy1 votes

[{quoted}](name=Academy Kayn,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=QmAeuRbT,comment-id=00030000,timestamp=2019-09-05T14:53:58.296+0000)

I mean, it's still better than dying 5 times over because of a single member of their team. Defense shouldn't make you invulnerable, it's meant to keep you better off than if you were on the offense, and losing several times.

Op was talking about defending turrets, which you can’t do anymore. Tank stats simply do not work at all. They shouldn’t make you unkillable, I agree, but in the current state they are pretty much dead stats.

You can’t defend your turrets because even the smallest lead turns into a game of “how many times can I dive the enemy”

And sure. You can try and get some jungle assistance, but that’s something you can’t rely on. Your jungle can’t and won’t always be there.

Lost R2 votes

Half of the job of the offense is to shatter the defense. It's the defense's job, and really the job of every player, to understand their enemy's strengths and, more importantly, their own weaknesses, and adapt accordingly depending on the situation. I tend to rush straight into fights as Lulu if we face a Shaco because I can mark him with Pix and effectively nullify his cloak and clone for four seconds, more than enough time for even a halfway competent team to blow him up. I've also used Lulu's superior speed as a diversion to make the enemy send several champions after me while my teammates take a valuable objective elsewhere.

There's hundreds of factors and variables to consider, if not thousands, but in my experience, most players don't consider much of what's currently in front of them, but rather arbitrary statistics and extremely rigid champion builds devoid of context. Also the concept of two-way League (playing both offense and defense as the situation demands) is alien and borderline heresy.

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