Laser turrets and Skirmishers blade reduce true damage, this can't be intended

IsIsGankedParis·May 2, 2015·55 votes·3,622 views

Just went into a customs with a friend, I played Olaf and he played Xin Zhao.

When I E'd him, he took 102 damage, when I was taking laser agro and E'd him, he took 86 damage.

When he had red smite, I E'd he took 102 damage, after I was smited, he took 81 damage.

Why hell do these 2 things reduce true damage, how is this intended at all.

No wonder I feel like I do less true damage to people as Darius and Olaf, this shit right here.

60 Comments

insaiyanbaccaMay 2, 20158 votes

doesnt olaf e have an ad ratio? could it be its reducing ad or something? idk

Lord DusteonMay 2, 20151 votes

{quoted}

doesnt olaf e have an ad ratio? could it be its reducing ad or something? idk

The only AD reducing effects I know of is Tryndamere's W or slowing Hecarim or reducing Rammus's armor.

insaiyanbaccaMay 2, 20152 votes

yeah but im just thinking the damage reduction could be affecting his ad which would mess with olaf's e damage, i doubt thats the case but its possible

Vellich0rMay 2, 20157 votes

cant forget troll Q (Trundle)

KingsgraveMay 2, 20155 votes

Yeah this is a bug, True Damage is never supposed to be reduced

Sona PingMay 2, 20155 votes

It appears as if it is intended. Reprint post:

{quoted} "I do think the red smite one is a bug though, that should not reduce True Damage."

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qli5HJA0,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-05-02T23:08:23.050+0000)

I doubt it. I can't say what Riot intends (their clarity about that leaves something to be desired) but according to what that smite says it's working as how appears to be intended. Effects that reduce damage taken by a champion do not affect true damage but the smite reduces damage that champion does to the other champion. (their damage to you is reduced by 20%. -tooltip)

Champion SkinMay 3, 20159 votes

Well damage reduction which reduce ALL damage (Like Alistar ult)... still don't reduce true damage... Or Exhaust which also applies a damage reduction... has no effect on true damage

So I don't see why Challenging smite should work when Exhaust doesn't work and it has much longer cooldown (and shorter duration)

NarasimhaMay 3, 20151 votes

For Ali, it makes sense. True damage basically means "ignores all defenses". So it ignores his damage reduction.

I have no idea about Exhaust though. Could be because its an older thing, and they've only started applying this more recently.

Sona PingMay 3, 20152 votes

Balance reason of some sort, I would guess. (It's also not as good as exhaust btw). Same reason why Vlad is hurt by Malefic Visions while untargetable but Aatrox is not. They are different so resolve differently. I did say Riot's clarity leaves something to be desired

Champion SkinMay 3, 20153 votes

Lissandra vs Vlad is because there is a difference between untargetable and invulnerable Lissandra self ult works like Zhonyas While Vlad, Elise and Fizz are untargetable which means they can't be hit by things however they still take damage from DoT's and Tethers (like Fiddle drain or Morgana ult)

Sona PingMay 3, 20152 votes

Actually, I was debating whether to say Aatrox or Lissandra, and I changed my mind. Unexpected that you replied fast. But anyway, this just proves the point about how the game functions, really. There is not a category that these fall into that works in a certain way, there are champions with the same effect but they operate differently. Lissandra's untargetable doesn't work like Vlad's which doesn't work like Fiora's.

Champion SkinMay 3, 20153 votes

Lissandra ult = Zhonyas = GA revive = Aatrox revive (these work in the same way.. they can't be damage or affected in anyway however they can't do anything either)

Fizz=Vlad=Elise=Fiora (these all work in the same way.. can't be hit by any targeted ability or skill shot.. however DoT's and tethers already cast on the champions will still affect them) (However I am not sure how Tethers would work on Fiora ult given that it moves her)

Sona PingMay 3, 20152 votes

You are confirming exactly what I said: There are abilities in the same category that work differently.

It's lacking summoner 13 . And not only does Fiora work differently and can be hit by some target abilities and Autoattacks, Master Yi's untargetable works differently as well. And I don't even have to get into the inconstancy with things like Ezreal's Arcane Shift and dashes/blinks/things like that.

One can't expect their own defined consistancy in this game, because it won't follow those rules.

Edit: Before you start going on about "Stasis" effects, you should remember that word isn't used by the items or the champions.

Icestar1186May 3, 20156 votes

For clarity: Zhonyas, Lissandra, and reviving are STASIS effects, not untargetability. They're not the same because they aren't the same thing.

Stasis: Can't take actions or be affected by actions

Untargetability: Can't be hit by spells or autos, can't be targeted, still vulnerable to damage over time and such

GavranMay 3, 20151 votes

Entangled: Can't move or auto attack.

Sona PingMay 3, 20152 votes

Frozen Tomb: she encases herself in dark ice, becoming untargetable and invulnerable. -client On Self Cast: Lissandra encases herself in dark ice for 2.5 seconds, becoming untargetable and invulnerable but unable to take any actions. -leagueoflegends.com/

You might notice that both in the client and on the official website, the word "Stasis" or "Stasis Effect" do not appear. It is described as Untargetable by the game! You can say "Uhm, actually... They are what we call 'stasis'. They, uh, actually work differently..."

That's the damn point! They _don't _ work the same way; that's what I have been writing here! Nor does the game write or give any indication of that for Aatrox or Guardian Angel. And I don't even have to get into things like how Fizz's untargetable damaging dash move operates differently than Yi's untargetable damaging dash move.

AyRe CoNteMpTMay 3, 20151 votes

[deleted]

Sona PingMay 3, 20152 votes

Does Yi's Alpha Strike cancel targeting? Does Fiora's Blade Waltz dodge autoattacks? No, they don't.

Tip: Before you call someone else a retard, be sure you know the facts of what you are talking about so you don't look like one yourself.

Sozan5May 3, 20152 votes

You are incorrect. The game classifies the effects.

Untargetable effects are described as Untargetable. "Statis" effects are described either as Statis or as Untargetable and Invulnerable.

For example:

Aatrox and Guardian Angel are "Statis" (though, in Aatrox case the only place where it's called that is when you are actually dead and your Passive is in your active effects on the left side). Lissandra R and Zhonya are "Untargetable and Invulnerable". Fizz E and Yi's Q are "Untargetable".

So there is a pretty clear classification (though, I wouldn't be surprised if "Statis" and "Untargetable and Invulnerable" also had some differences).

EndlessSorcererMay 3, 20152 votes

All quotes are taken for the League of Legends wiki.

Upon taking fatal damage, Aatrox enters a **stasis **and begins draining his Blood Well, healing himself over the next 3 seconds. The amount of health restored is equal to 35% of the Blood Well's content limit, plus its amount of stored health upon activation

Active - Self Cast: Lissandra encases herself in a glacier for 2.5 seconds, becoming **untargetable **and **invulnerable **but unable to take any actions, similar to stasis.

Guardian Angel: Revives your champion upon death, restoring 30% of your maximum health and mana after 4 seconds of stasis. 5 minute cooldown.

Zilean places a protective time rune on an allied champion for 5 seconds. If the target takes lethal damage during that time, they will be placed in Stasis icon stasis for 2 seconds, becoming untargetable and invulnerable but also unable to perform any action. When they come out of **stasis **, they are revived with a set amount of health.

Note that Aatrox passive specifically says he enters stasis and Lissandra's ultimate specifically says she is invulnerable.

Fiora dashes around the battlefield — becoming **untargetable **in the process — dealing physical damage to random enemy champion(s) 5 times. Hits against the same target beyond the first deal 40% damage. The first and last attack will be against the same target. Each strike applies on-hit effects.

Fizz hops onto his trident in a nearby location, becoming **untargetable **for 0.75 seconds and gaining the ability to use Trickster.png Trickster for no additional cost before the effect ends.

Maokai transforms into an **untargetable **cloud of arcane energy that quickly travels to a target enemy, deals magic damage (capped at 300 against minions and monsters) and Root icon roots it.

Vladimir sinks into a 150-radius pool of blood, gaining 37.5% bonus movement speed that decays exponentially for 1 second and becoming **untargetable **for 2 seconds. Enemies who stand upon the pool are Slow icon slowed by 40%, and are dealt magic damage every half second while Vladimir heals himself for 15% of the damage done.

Master Yi becomes **untargetable **and leaps to strike up to 4 enemies, dealing physical damage to each and dealing additional damage to minions and monsters.

Elise and her Spider Swarm spiderlings lift up into the air, becoming untargetable

Note that theese untargetable abilities do not specify stasis or invulnerability. While you cannot be targeted by abilities or autoattacks, that doesn't mean that you are immune to the effect of abilities (i.e. DoTs) which have already been applied to you.

Sona PingMay 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

All quotes are taken for the League of Legends wiki.

I.E. not from either the game or the official website. Let me be clear. Again.

I ALREADY KNOW HOW THEY WORK.

The fact that you are going to a third-party site to retrieve information compiled about the game by fans, that demonstrates the problem that I am talking about.

EndlessSorcererMay 3, 20152 votes

The information is available in-game and on the official site as well. I just find it more convenient to copy-paste the information from the wiki and I prefer their format.

It's not really a problem; you just seem to misunderstand how they work. Untargetability effects behave consistently, but some of them have an invulnerability or stasis effect in addition to the untargetability.

It's really not that hard.

My previous post was mostly disproving your claim here.

You might notice that both in the client and on the official website, the word "Stasis" or "Stasis Effect" do not appear. It is described as Untargetable by the game!

My showing you that stasis or invulnerable were included on several abilities which make you untargetable.

Sona PingMay 3, 20152 votes

{quoted}

Note that Aatrox passive specifically says he enters stasis and Lissandra's ultimate specifically says she is invulnerable.

{quoted}

The information is available in-game and on the official site as well.

It specifically does not appear. http://gameinfo.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/game-info/champions/aatrox/ Aatroxpassive.png

The words "Stasis", "Untargetable", or "invulnerable" do not appear. How can you miss this? Moreover, it's a well known fact that Riot's clarity is off and Riot themselves have stated that they have hid information from display and are considering whether or not hiding numbers from the client is good idea anymore.

Even the lolwiki you are copy-pasting from says itself that these untargetables operate differently. I don't even have to bring up the other instances like how Fizz's untargetable cancels autoattacks while Fiora's does not, how not all dashes cross terrain, or how Cleanse says "Removes all disables and summoner spell debuffs affecting your champion and lowers the duration of incoming disables by 65% for 3 seconds." but doesn't actually remove all disables or debuffs.

Zair UmbrasMay 3, 20152 votes

Alistar's ult doesn't state it reduces all damage, it says it reduces all physical and magical damage taken.

"ACTIVE: Alistar removes all crowd control effects from himself, then gains additional attack damage and takes 70% reduced physical and magic damage for 7 seconds."

Exhaust is odd with how it doesn't reduce true damage. This is a known thing that's been around forever. No one really knows why yet.... I don't think there's been any answers from Riot about WHY it works that way. Everyone's old answer was the usual stupid response with it being 'TRUE' damage meaning it pierces anything, which isn't much of an answer considering you can amplify true damage with any ability that increases damage dealt to a champion like Swain's E or Poppy's ult.

EndlessSorcererMay 3, 20152 votes

IIRC, they removed the ability for Poppy's ultimate, Swain's E, and Vladimir's ultimate to amplify true damage a while ago.

Zair UmbrasMay 3, 20151 votes

Then I am corrected there! I must have missed that patch. I missed a bit of S4, sadly.

Still! It's the turret that's doing it right now and those inner turrets are supposed to make it hard to dive.

EndlessSorcererMay 3, 20151 votes

Found the patch. http://leagueoflegends.wikia.com/wiki/V3.15

I wasn't really arguing for either side of the whole towers reducing true damage. Just wanted to let you know that true damage amplification no longer happens from champion abilities.

Zair UmbrasMay 3, 20151 votes

Huh. I played that patch. Guess I must've missed that note. o.o Weird.

Rinky DinkyMay 3, 20155 votes

It totally is not intended

If it was, Swain would still be be able to increase ignites damage

TenSlashTenMay 3, 20152 votes

he still does. Least I think he does. Never remember it being removed

AxlStreamMay 3, 20152 votes

"Reduces damage taken by 20% from the targeted champion"

True damage is still damage.

GavranMay 3, 20153 votes

"Reduces damage taken by X%" Ali Ult, others

Doesn't affect true damage.

the Anarchit3chtMay 2, 20151 votes

nvm

KazaashiMay 2, 20156 votes

[{quoted}](name=the Anarchit3cht,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qli5HJA0,comment-id=0001,timestamp=2015-05-02T22:34:25.712+0000)

Pretty sure its working as intended. I've never seen anything about true damage not being reduce by damage reduction modifiers. The damage is still "true" in that it doesnt account for armor/mr. So if you deal 100 true damage but have 50% damage reduction, you'd then deal 50 true damage. As opposed to lets say, dealing 100 attack damage - 20 for armor for 80 attack damage and then 50 attack damage - 20 for armor for 30 attack damage.

True damage ignores armor/magic resist and champion applied damage reduction(Alistar Ult, Maokai Ult, exhaust, etc). The Laser turrents are supposed to reduce true damage, because they reduce all dmg done by 15% and are applied by a structure, not other players.

I do think the red smite one is a bug though, that should not reduce True Damage.

Sona PingMay 2, 20152 votes

{quoted} I do think the red smite one is a bug though, that should not reduce True Damage.

I doubt it. I can't say what Riot intends (their clarity about that leaves something to be desired) but according to what that smite says it's working as how appears to be intended. Effects that reduce damage taken by a champion do not affect true damage but the smite reduces damage that champion does to the other champion. (their damage to you is reduced by 20%. -tooltip)

KazaashiMay 6, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qli5HJA0,comment-id=000100000000,timestamp=2015-05-02T23:08:23.050+0000)

I doubt it. I can't say what Riot intends (their clarity about that leaves something to be desired) but according to what that smite says it's working as how appears to be intended. Effects that reduce damage taken by a champion do not affect true damage but the smite reduces damage that champion does to the other champion. (their damage to you is reduced by 20%. -tooltip)

Because the Exhaust damadge output reduction doesn't affect True Damage, I see the Smite one as a bug.

Sona PingMay 6, 20151 votes

I would be inclined to agree that something like this would be an oversight, if this was a game version of Magic: The Gathering or something, where things fit into types that all worked according to a base rule set. But League doesn't have a base ruleset; things can work differently even if they are in the same category or function and even in ways one wouldn't think from the tooltip. They don't work that way "Because they don't." -Riot Games

summoner 1 says "Removes all disables and summoner spells debuffs" but doesn't remove all of them like it says it does. Mikael's, QSS, and Cleanse all remove Crowd Control effects but they don't all remove the same types of Crowd Control. Somethings only apply some on-hit effect but not others.

Like I said, Riot's clarity has left things to be desired before. I can't say how Riot intended Challenging Smite to work, I wasn't in those meetings, so I can't say this wasn't intentional. I know they have tested for such a big change as their Season 5 items; Giving them the benefit of the doubt and with how the item is worded, I have to say it was intended until further notice; I can't just assume that Riot is that incompetent. That wouldn't be exactly fair, you know.

KazaashiMay 6, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=Sona Ping,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qli5HJA0,comment-id=00010000000000000000,timestamp=2015-05-06T23:29:16.658+0000)

I would be inclined to agree that something like this would be an oversight, if this was a game version of Magic: The Gathering or something, where things fit into types that all worked according to a base rule set. But League doesn't have a base ruleset; things can work differently even if they are in the same category or function and even in ways one wouldn't think from the tooltip. They don't work that way "Because they don't." -Riot Games

I'm pretty sure Riot has worked to make things work according to a base ruleset. Ablilites and items pretty much do what the tool tip says.

says "Removes all disables and summoner spells debuffs" but doesn't remove all of them like it says it does. Mikael's, QSS, and Cleanse all remove Crowd Control effects but they don't all remove the same types of Crowd Control. Somethings only apply some on-hit effect but not others.

Acording to LoL wiki, cleanse removes all disables/CC. It doesn't remove suppression because you cannot activate summoner spells while suppressed. Other than that they work pretty much the same.

Like I said, Riot's clarity has left things to be desired before. I can't say how Riot intended Challenging Smite to work, I wasn't in those meetings, so I can't say this wasn't intentional. I know they have tested for such a big change as their Season 5 items; Giving them the benefit of the doubt and with how the item is worded, I have to say it was intended until further notice; I can't just assume that Riot is that incompetent. That wouldn't be exactly fair, you know.

Just cause something is a bug, doesn't mean the company is incompetent. Games get shipped all the time with bugs in them. I am 99% sure that the challenging smite thing is a bug, because Riot wants consistancy and True Damage is stated to ignore all DR and resistances, the exhaust Damage Reduction is ignored, Braums W, Alistars Ult, and pretty much every other DR mechanic in the game, besides these two scenarios. I'm not saying Riot is a bad company or anything like that, just that it is a bug and should be fixed for clarites sake..

FedAsFukMay 2, 20151 votes

It is ignoring the resistances, but it is giving the smite a use, as well as the laser turrets. It is basically reducing your AD, so while you are still ignoring the armor you deal less damage because you have less. Otherwise the laser turrets would pose a much easier task than intended. Basically you could have Olaf/Vayne/Velkoz and once you arrive to the nexus towers laugh as you spat out true damage (same concept for red smite). And if that were the case do not think that champs dealing true damage would not immediately be spammed and abused beyond imagination, because currently the hardest thing to do is break the base because of damage reduction and the slow, you remove on of those the turrets make little to no impact.

Champion SkinMay 3, 20151 votes

Why in the world would the 70 seconds cooldown (15 if you have 2 charges) smite reduce true damage but not the 210 seconds cooldown exhaust?

FedAsFukMay 3, 20151 votes

I would say because exhaust reduces the damage by 40% to all champs hit instead of reducing damage done to ONE target by 20%. It is more personally impactful spell than exhaust. Exhaust would help the team as a whole reducing that champs damage by double and slowing them, where as smite would only help the individual. That would be my main guess, not a dev so I can't say for sure, but I imagine if you played against a Vayne and exhaust reduced true damage the vayne would basically be fucked damage wise, this way she can still be semi impactful and exhaust is still helpful for the enemy team to use

Champion SkinMay 3, 20151 votes

Well why shouldn't Vayne be fucked damage wise when all other ADC's are?

FedAsFukMay 3, 20151 votes

The point isn't just Vayne but the point of true damage as a whole, exhaust reducing the true damage would basically make it a mechanic that you can never take advantage of. Basically it would make exhaust overly oppressive

VarkreyMay 3, 20151 votes

First you have to have somewhat of an understanding of the damage equation.

It goes along the lines of something like this:

Damage = (True Damage + [Magic damage x MR reduction x Modifiers] + [Physical damage x Armor reduction x Modifiers]) x Total Damage Modifiers

The turret debuff and red smite debuff are total damage modifiers. The majority of other skills, including exhaust and alistar's ult, are physical and magic damage modifiers (go read the abilities).

There are very few total damage modifiers and those two are the only ones I can think of off the top of my head.

JustMyBassCannonMay 3, 20152 votes

Mechanically, yes, it's working like that.

Just like how, mechanically, the old Skirmisher's Sabre applied true damage that ignored invulnerability.

We're not worried about the mechanical "why" behind this. We're wondering why from a design standpoint. The point of true damage is that it's supposed to be 100% consistent. It doesn't matter if you have something that increases or decreases the damage dealt to the target, it's supposed to remain the same. The only time it should be negated is with invulnerability, untargetability or an HP shield taking the damage instead.

First, they broke that rule with Ahri, but then they reverted it. Now, they're breaking that rule with Skirmisher's and laser turrets.

KazaashiMay 7, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The turret debuff and red smite debuff are total damage modifiers. The majority of other skills, including exhaust and alistar's ult, are physical and magic damage modifiers (go read the abilities).

I did, from LoL wiki:

Exhaust is a targeted Summoner spell that affects enemy champions. It reduces damage dealt by 40% and reduces attack speed and movement speed by 30%.