It's totally fair that I lose 20 LP because of a troll.

Tentakill Myself·Jun 12, 2015·23 votes·4,545 views

@Riot, I really want context on why you've done NOTHING to help the people who get afked and trolled on.

61 Comments

AerothalJun 12, 201515 votes

if you lose 20 LP, that just means your mmr is shit! I know from personal experience, mine is! if you were any good, you wouldnt lose as much LP and the occasional troll wouldnt matter! and you wouldnt post about it and life would be better.

but since this is reality the facts are as they stand: you are shit at the game therefore your mmr is tanked therefore you lose a ton of LP when you lose a game therefore trolls matter to you. and you post and whine about it. Life is one of the hardest.

The End

King of TaoJun 12, 20152 votes

Actually riot have confirmed that LP loss and gained is based on how they think the game should have gone. Low LP loss is given when the team you were facing was favorite to win like wise high LP loss is given when you were favorite to win. The average LP gain and loss is between 18-20 an unsurprising game is 14-17 and an upset is 21-24

AerothalJun 12, 20153 votes

you will have to direct me to the post that said that, because that goes against anything i have read about LP gains/losses. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt even though it goes against my own experience. Provide me with the post that "confirmed" your statement.

King of TaoJun 12, 20151 votes

There is only one factor that affects the amount of LP you get: the perceived difficulty of the match, which is based on the MMR difference between the two teams. Being a part of a duo, kill/death ratios, and other statistics does not affect your LP gain.

found here: https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/204010760-Ranked-Play-FAQ

KazaashiJun 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=King of Tao,realm=NA,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qja18qqE,comment-id=000b000000000000,timestamp=2015-06-12T16:14:33.919+0000)

There is only one factor that affects the amount of LP you get: the perceived difficulty of the match, which is based on the MMR difference between the two teams. Being a part of a duo, kill/death ratios, and other statistics does not affect your LP gain.

found here: https://support.riotgames.com/hc/en-us/articles/204010760-Ranked-Play-FAQ

It also weights it against the average MMR for your division/league. If your MMR is much lower than the average, you will gain less for winning and lose more for losing. This is the system adjusting your ranking to match your MMR and until you can raise your MMR you will see that discrepancy.

The OP has this problem, that is why the Trolls, AFKs, and Feeders are such a big deal to him.

AerothalJun 12, 20151 votes

and you conveniently left this out? why?

"WHY DOES EVERYONE EARN DIFFERENT AMOUNTS OF LEAGUE POINTS? If your MMR is significantly lower than where the system believes you should be for the division you are in, then your LP gains will be reduced and LP loss will be increased. Alternatively, if your MMR is significantly higher compared to the average your current tier or division, you will gain more LP and lose less. You may even skip promotion series or advance multiple tiers if your MMR significantly outweighs your league."

CelosarJun 12, 20158 votes

I love how you didn't even address the issue and basically say that trolling is fine because if you're good you'll win so much it doesn't matter. The best part is this horseshit got upvoted. Maybe it's okay because you were self deprecating.

Well played folks, well played.

AerothalJun 12, 20151 votes

because there is nothing to be said. Trolling happens and Riot has been doing a lot to get rid of players intentionally trolling, feeding and afk'ing. the OP complains he loses 20 LP because of a troll. I am sure he has won LP because of a troll at some point in time. To whine about a troll is like complaining about the weather. OP's dramatic shout out that Riot does "NOTHING" is foolish and untrue. thats why i didnt even acknowledge that part of his post.

CelosarJun 12, 20154 votes

The important thing is that you being a prick no doubt helped the situation in any conceivable way.

Oh....

wait...

It probably didn't at all.

ˇ ni hao ˇNov 9, 20172 votes

After see your comment, I know you are shit both in game and in life.

AerothalDec 8, 20171 votes

hehe

On Your SideJun 12, 20155 votes

It sucks when your game is decided by AFKers and trolls. Really, it does. It's a frustrating experience and it's not fun or acceptable.

But complaining about LP loss because of uncooperative players doesn't make sense. As long as you don't troll, you will always win more than you lose to trolls. There's only 4 other players on your team who could be a troll, but 5 on the enemy team. It's basic math and statistics.

Sometimes it might feel like you get more trolls and the statistics can go fuck themselves, but that's called confirmation bias. In reality, you notice trolls on your team far more than you notice them on the enemy team. As long as you don't troll yourself, you will see more wins than loses in the long run.

It should be mentioned that you don't necessarily lose because of a troll. If you work together, you can sometimes win even with a pick that's not meta. The other day I faced a team with 2 mid lane instant locks. One of them had to come bot and support, even refused to buy a gold income item or a Sightstone and just went full AP. They won the game because our ADC didn't know how to handle a kill lane for squat and they worked well together despite being a "troll" lane.

There's a good chance that you lose because of your attitude. Someone who is on tilt is much more likely to become aggressive if you act hostile towards them. There's also a good chance that they picked something "troll" because you weren't being communicative or open-minded in Champion select either. If you stop making negative assumptions about them and just play with them you'll likely win more games.

TheGrandAllianceJun 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=On Your Side,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qja18qqE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-06-12T05:43:43.102+0000)

But complaining about LP loss because of uncooperative players doesn't make sense. As long as you don't troll, you will always win more than you lose to trolls. There's only 4 other players on your team who could be a troll, but 5 on the enemy team. It's basic math and statistics.

Not true... something the "math gods" themselves overlook: The MMR system isn't a random sample. IF you never AFK you are far more likely to be paired with someone who does in order to balance out the teams. Therefore if you are stellar you are more likely to have trolls then not. If you ARE the troll then your team is less likely to be trolls themselves.

Aaah... the math gods defeat is the American Dream alas...

EDIT: Because people here clearly failed to think this one out b4 spam voting: You are forgetting Leavebuster.

"How do they know you are going to AFK?"

... you ask? BECAUSE YOU ALREADY HAVE DONE IT B4.

SammystormJun 12, 20152 votes

What exactly in Riot's matchmaking makes it more likely to pair you with a afk after a string of not having them and more importantly how does Riot know ahead of time who is going to leave a game? And if they do why don't they just stop people from leaving games.

Honestly this post makes no sense. Afk's are not random but functionally might as well be so because of the inability to predict them. MMR is not random but has no way of detecting afk's. So what that means is that matchmaking will pair you up with people that have similar mmr's but it does not predict whether they will leave a game and pair you with them.

ChaoticPineconeJun 12, 20151 votes

If we assume that AFK and Trolls are random, and we also assume that your team has at least 1 player who will never AFK or Troll (you), the probability that your team will have the AFK or Troll is lower than the probability of the enemy team.

TheGrandAllianceJun 12, 20151 votes

{quoted}

What exactly in Riot's matchmaking makes it more likely to pair you with a afk after a string of not having them and more importantly how does Riot know ahead of time who is going to leave a game? And if they do why don't they just stop people from leaving games.

Honestly this post makes no sense. Afk's are not random but functionally might as well be so because of the inability to predict them. MMR is not random but has no way of detecting afk's. So what that means is that matchmaking will pair you up with people that have similar mmr's but it does not predict whether they will leave a game and pair you with them.

You are forgetting Leavebuster.

The game knows how many games someone has previously left (in fact the whole world knows if they lookup ur match history) or games you have afked some of the time (supposedly 5+min that also triggers ban).

Thus with this info they are able to match you up accordingly. This of course does not consider other metrics that they may have on you such as average ping (yes check your logs on your game directory it knows these things) that further refines the scale.

ALso remember the "low priority query" that exists especially normal for AFKers. In order for this to be balance-able they would have to match players with good records with bad records in order to prevent multiple bad players on the same side. Therefore I reiterate once again if you are always online you will be more likely to be on a team that is AFK.

SammystormJun 13, 20151 votes

You just throw out a bunch of points and make a huge logic leap and reach a conclusion that does not make sense with the evidence you state. What does leaverbuster, average ping, and other metrics have to do with whether or not your team has an afk? Your post doesn't answer the question you are asking hence why it doesn't make sense.

Therefore I reiterate once again if you are always online you will be more likely to be on a team that is AFK. No shit you are more likely to have an afk if you play more games. You are more likely simple because you play more.

In order for this to be balance-able they would have to match players with good records with bad records in order to prevent multiple bad players on the same side. What is the "this" you are referring to and who is "they"? Your post does not make it clear. In fact your post is so poorly organized and so vague that it might as well be meaningless. No one has any fucking idea what you are talking about and what your "evidence" has to do with anything.

TheGrandAllianceJun 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You just throw out a bunch of points and make a huge logic leap and reach a conclusion that does not make sense with the evidence you state. What does leaverbuster, average ping, and other metrics have to do with whether or not your team has an afk? Your post doesn't answer the question you are asking hence why it doesn't make sense.

The "leavebuster" system as described by RIOT is one that is designed to minimalize impact of troll AFKers. It does this by:

Recording amount of times AFKed
Frequency of AFKs (% of games AFK)
Supposedly also can monitor lag for network quality reasons

THEREFORE... because each account has a "Leavebuster" profile... an account who has violated in past, or otherwise has a high frequency of AFK's will "be flagged" in the MMR system. Thusly these people will likely not be put on the same team in order to prevent 3v5 from occurring.

Who is "they"? RIOT that's who... surprised you couldn't figure this out.

Leavebuster==Flag your account for hostile activity... adjusts matchmaking accordingly. Therefore the statistical random probability of "your team will be more likely have afk if you are never AFK" is a false claim therefore.

If you cannot understand this... either you have serious problems or just living in denial. Egypt is <<<<<<<<<<<<

Indeed it is so...

SammystormJun 13, 20151 votes

It isn't clear because you don't provide any relevant evidence. Yes Riot monitors all that stuff but it is a separate system from matchmaking. On top of that where is your evidence that matchmaking tries to prevent 3 v 5's? You can't just claim that matchmaking works a certain way and provide no evidence and then expect people to believe you. on top of not providing any relevant evidence you have the audacity to call people names when you can't even properly explain and support your viewpoint.

TheGrandAllianceJun 13, 20151 votes

{quoted}

It isn't clear because you don't provide any relevant evidence. Yes Riot monitors all that stuff but it is a separate system from matchmaking. On top of that where is your evidence that matchmaking tries to prevent 3 v 5's? You can't just claim that matchmaking works a certain way and provide no evidence and then expect people to believe you. on top of not providing any relevant evidence you have the audacity to call people names when you can't even properly explain and support your viewpoint.

Fair enough... but to do so I would have to go dig up old red posts throughout the last several years explaining this concept. I could do it I suppose if I must but this take awhile and effort on my part is soso at best... Perhaps if I find something fast I will update it at thus.

Granted you cannot disprove my claims either so we are at an impass I suppose.

SammystormJun 14, 20151 votes

The burden of proof is on you the person making the claim. I don't have any need to disprove anything because you haven't given any evidence for anything as of yet

TheGrandAllianceJun 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

The burden of proof is on you the person making the claim. I don't have any need to disprove anything because you haven't given any evidence for anything as of yet

http://boards.na.leagueoflegends.com/en/c/miscellaneous/EZbHLGZY-introducing-the-new-leaverbuster-system?show=flat

SammystormJun 14, 20151 votes

All that says is that Riot is taking a harsher stance on people leaving and that people who queue with someone they deem a "chronic" afker that the entire party will get a notice. It doesn't say that riot will pair people to try to prevent 3 v 5's.

TheGrandAllianceJun 14, 20151 votes

{quoted}

All that says is that Riot is taking a harsher stance on people leaving and that people who queue with someone they deem a "chronic" afker that the entire party will get a notice. It doesn't say that riot will pair people to try to prevent 3 v 5's.

You won't get a direct response from RIOT on that matter... as they don't want to reveal their system. However interviews or otherwise "unofficial information" information such as surrenderat20.net has made such correlation clear.

SammystormJun 15, 20151 votes

{quoted}

You won't get a direct response from RIOT on that matter... as they don't want to reveal their system. However interviews or otherwise "unofficial information" information such as surrenderat20.net has made such correlation clear.

Since this conversation is going no where fast I am just going to disagree and leave it at that.

DracidJun 12, 20151 votes

[{quoted}](name=On Your Side,realm=EUNE,application-id=3ErqAdtq,discussion-id=Qja18qqE,comment-id=0000,timestamp=2015-06-12T05:43:43.102+0000)

It sucks when your game is decided by AFKers and trolls. Really, it does. It's a frustrating experience and it's not fun or acceptable.

But complaining about LP loss because of uncooperative players doesn't make sense. As long as you don't troll, you will always win more than you lose to trolls. There's only 4 other players on your team who could be a troll, but 5 on the enemy team. It's basic math and statistics.

Sometimes it might feel like you get more trolls and the statistics can go fuck themselves, but that's called confirmation bias. In reality, you notice trolls on your team far more than you notice them on the enemy team. As long as you don't troll yourself, you will see more wins than loses in the long run.

It should be mentioned that you don't necessarily lose because of a troll. If you work together, you can sometimes win even with a pick that's not meta. The other day I faced a team with 2 mid lane instant locks. One of them had to come bot and support, even refused to buy a gold income item or a Sightstone and just went full AP. They won the game because our ADC didn't know how to handle a kill lane for squat and they worked well together despite being a "troll" lane.

There's a good chance that you lose because of your attitude. Someone who is on tilt is much more likely to become aggressive if you act hostile towards them. There's also a good chance that they picked something "troll" because you weren't being communicative or open-minded in Champion select either. If you stop making negative assumptions about them and just play with them you'll likely win more games.

it wouldn't be so bad but when you lose a promo game because of it, its a lot more damaging. A set of games that you HAVE to win in order to progress. They should honestly just go back to the old elo system

HellioningJun 12, 20155 votes

How do you propose fixing the problem? Just negating the LP loss for teams that have people that get enough reports to go for the tribunal? That's gonna cause LP inflation issues.

And, of course, it's going to cause people to slowly lower the border of 'troll' so they can try to get their LP. 'This person picked an off-meta pick!', for example.

ChaoticPineconeJun 12, 20154 votes

because the people who are good enough to climb will climb, and a system that allows no LP loss for losing with a troll can be abused.

King of TaoJun 12, 20151 votes

If that was true how comes I'm currently on a 7 game losing streak even when carrying the hell out of games?. When the game is 100% 2v5 or 3v5 its near impossible to win the game even when using the other 3 feeders as meat shields it is utterly impossible to win a 2v5 fight in the current meta of league of tanks. Oh and don't get me started on the number of smurfs in bronze at the moment its enough to make you cry.

SammystormJun 12, 20151 votes

You obviously aren't carrying if you are losing.

King of TaoJun 12, 20151 votes

Please explain to me how you can win a 2v5 vs a fed enemy team. In fact SHOW ME better yet lets make it 1v5 as a tank vs a fed enemy team because your team wanted to play things like Cassiopia top or Fiora.

SammystormJun 12, 20151 votes

Tanks have consistently had one of the highest win rates. Their ability to alter fights is so game changing that they can solo win games. The fact that you view it as a 1 v 5 or 2 v 5 is your problem. Yes your team mates might have done poorly but you still need them. So if you are truly carrying you will stomp so hard that your teams feeding doesn't matter or you will help your team to catch up and spoon feed them and become an effective leader that makes the struggling team members do better.

Dunkrius2gJun 12, 20153 votes

I think the only way u can punish them is this: They get low priority queue. DOnt matter what kind of offense he has done. And if he is successfully reported? the amount of LP he lost for that match, he gets double that e.g. 20LP --> 40LP.

If a troll or AFKer sees this. then they will think twice.

SwiftKitten88Jun 12, 20152 votes

i cant see how they can make it so u dont lose lp for trolls but its pretty damn sinple to make it so u dont lose lp for afks... the system already reds out their name its not like the game doesn't KNOW they are afk.

LlaniteJun 12, 20152 votes

Do you make the same thread if the troll is on the other team and you get free LP?

KoldheartedjspJun 12, 20152 votes

because it happens to the other team as well

every time you lose a game due to a troll/afk you also win a game

SaiannaJun 12, 20152 votes

That's lame explanation..

KoldheartedjspJun 12, 20152 votes

uh no that's reality lol...

So you think you should be able to double dip and get the good end both times when it's 4v5?

Just accept it's part of the game and the fact it happens to both teams evens it out

Would you rather not get anything for winning a 5v4? didn't think so

SaiannaJun 12, 20151 votes

Imo 4v5s happen waaay too often. Should 4man team get penalized for having handicap? No. Should 5man team win less cause of team with 1 member less? Also No.

Here's my idea: Lets say on defeat each player loses 10 LP. Each active member of team with AFKer loses half of that LP amount. While AFKer loses his points + all halfs of other members.

Yeah it might be unfair for those who really DC'd (a.k.a not their fault), but right now this system is so easy to abuse, that it's not even funny. Imo there should be harsh punishment for those who dare to ruin others time.

FreddytheFishJun 12, 20152 votes

good luck, riots policy for matters like this seems to be "ignore it and hope it goes away1'

ResiakedrømJun 12, 20152 votes

Well its not riots fault if you aren`t able to hold your own against trundle.

masterdragon481Jun 12, 20151 votes

This is problem I have posted on multiple times already, so ill paraphrase what I have said in the past.

In short, my solution would prevent negative effects from actually disconnects and rage quits; it WON'T help vs trolls that stay connected, or feed excessively, or afk in base (but don't actually dc).

Basically, my idea is that in ANY case where a vote surrender has 4 or less players voting for a surrender (ie the last person/persons are actually dc'd, whatever the reason), then the people voting do NOT lose any LP for the game. The person (or persons) that did dc takes an LP loss of 2-3 times greater than normal, in addition to the normal penalties of leaving a game. This would discourage people from dc'ing to avoid losing LP; no one is willing to be a hero for the other members of their team (or if they are, they are REALLY nice guys).

In regards to the people that disconnect due to a bad internet connection, or because they simply have something they need to do and can't stay to finish the game, I have to take a strict stance. I have to take the position that if you have a bad internet connection (or risk having your internet drop, like playing in a thunderstorm where you might lose power), don't play ranked. If you don't think you will be able to finish a game, don't queue up for ranked. And if some emergency happens and you need to leave (hospital trip, fire in your house, etc) I'm sure you will have bigger concerns than your LP. And of course, if it is an infrequent occurrence, that should be the only penalty you receive; if you are in the habit of disconnecting, you kinda deserve action against you.

Anyway, it sucks that you lost LP for this, and it really isn't something that should happen.

SammystormJun 13, 20151 votes

What does making the afk penalty harsher do? It doesn't stop anything. People will still leave. Riot has had various levels of penalties and it doesn't stop anything. It discourages some people but we have already gone well past the point where the majority of people who are going to be scared to not afk are already scared. The afk penalty is already pretty damn harsh. Your suggestion just makes the ego's of the people who voted yes feel slightly better well also introducing more incentives for people to be dicks.

masterdragon481Jun 13, 20151 votes

Don't see why that is boosting the ego's of the people that voted yes, and I don't see how I am incentivizing dickish behavior. If you could explain that a little more clearly, I would be able to properly respond.

In my experience, most people that rage quit do so because they are frustrated; and I would argue that part of that frustration is the fact that they are going to lose LP for the game. They are frustrated and decide that because they are going to lose the LP anyway,there are better things they can do with their time. Therefore, I thinking making the LP loss the equivalent of 3-4 games makes it a significant enough loss that players that normally would justify a leave no longer do.

Actually, I'm going to leave what I just said, though the point of my solution has been slightly misinterrpreted and I intend to correct it here (after getting side tracked by your statement). This isn't a solution for jerks, or trolls (assuming they stay connected). I'm not trying to fix the problems created by people intentionally trying to cause harm.

This is a solution to stop the four players who had no control over the 4v5 they find themselves in from losing LP. And when i say no control, I mean the 5th person's internet drops out, or windows decides it has to update RIGHT NOW (and auto updates aren't turned off). I DON'T mean no control over other players. That being said, this solution would also help against people that rage quit and actually disconnect. With that in mind, the only purpose for the heavy LP loss is because I am assuming that all of the people playing (including the person that dc'd for whatever reason) is actually trying to win and climb. The heavy LP loss is only to prevent abuse of the system to stop LP loss from 5v5 games without legitimate disconnects. The trolls and the afker's are unfortunate, but I have to take that stance that it is part of the game and the best you an hope for there is to report them and get the account in trouble.

For example, red team is up 25K gold at 20 minutes. Not sure how you would do this, but just go with it. Blue team knows they are going to lose, so their jungler (who maybe feels guilty about the game, idk im just coming up with reasons) decides to dc before the red team wins. Because he dc'd, the other members of his team lose no LP and he would lose the normal amount, instead of everyone losing it. Now I don't really expect a LOT of people to do this, but the abuse potential is there. Now the idea behind the increased LP loss is while the blue team's jungler might be willing to disconnect for a normal LP loss, losing the equivalent of 5 games worth of LP makes the sacrifice much more........shall we say noble? and therefore they are less likely to do so.

So, keeping in mind the problem I am trying to solve (or if you prefer, the part of the problem I am trying to solve), how do you think my solution stands up?

SammystormJun 13, 20151 votes

It doesn't solve anything. people will still leave games. Heavy lp loss creates more abuse cases instead of less.

See the problem as you correctly identify is that if their is no loss of lp people will abuse it. Even if their is only loss for one game people will abuse it. However people will still leave for friends, people will still try to bully other people into leaving. So the problem I have is that it doesn't solve anything and creates more problems or worse ones then we originally had.

masterdragon481Jun 13, 20151 votes

I don't understand your statement that it "doesn't solve anything." It will prevent the people that don't deserve to lose the LP from losing LP and it sets up a system that discourages people from acting like heroes to preserve the rest of their teams LP.

Great, I correctly identified the problem. Basically, if I was losing a ranked game (5v5) I could decide to disconnect, lose my normal LP from it, and take comfort in the fact that my 4 allies didn't lose LP. There's the abuse we agree on. However, I know that if I were losing a game, and I was sitting at 60 lp, I would much rather take the loss and have ~47 LP instead of disconnecting and dropping to zero. Once again, I'm not trying to handle to people that are absolutely, 100% intent on causing harm; I am only trying to make it more fair (and less frustrating) for those people that are really trying to play the game.

The bullying others into leaving is about the only thing I can see being a problem, but that is addressed by muting your allies, if the situation were to be that bad. That aside, like I said at the start, I think this solution does solve a lot (but not necessarily what you seem to want it to solve). I also don't really see it creating any more problems that we originally had, but if you could point some out, I would be happy to reply.

SammystormJun 13, 20151 votes

The person who disconnects doesn't deserve to lose 60 lp.

People will bully others into leaving. Also people will duo queue and when games go south one person will dodge for the other. This will happen. On top of that people will still leave games. It doesn't matter that you wouldn't leave if you got hit with a 60 lp other people still would. Since people are still leaving games and you add more abuse cases it wouldn't solve anything.

Quacker2Jun 14, 20151 votes

This is a topic that never seems to die and that I see come up over and over again.

I personally feel like the leave system is fine. as it is. They have made the afk penalty extremely harsh. Having a five or ten minute standby for the next couple games makes queuing up with friends a nightmare, and it forces you to waste time (I sadly speak from experience). I would not ever troll on purpose since this penalty persists by games played...not time. It is also reasonable though. Everyone has that game where the internet just isn't working or something comes up. Is that fair to lose 50 LP for that? NO!

But the big thing that so many people just do not get these days is that league is a GAME. If someone dc's it is okay every once in awhile. Other people have lives too. To be fair you shouldn't go into ranked unless you can set aside that time without interference if possible. But things come up, and everyone should respect that.